Mystery Location

[hilldweller]

Does it support a Radio Aerial, possibly a Short Wave Aerial

It does indeed support an aerial but not a short wave one. The cheque sorry clue is in the post. For such an important purpose it all seems a bit low tech and in a strange place for the coverage it provides. The other end is supported by what looks like a monster BT pole.

HD

[vox]

And on the subject of Heely baths, I just discovered (whilst looking for information about the aerial) that the baths still has a sign which says "Russian Swimming Baths"

Any guesses where.

[vox]

It does indeed support an aerial but not a short wave one. The cheque sorry clue is in the post. For such an important purpose it all seems a bit low tech and in a strange place for the coverage it provides. The other end is supported by what looks like a monster BT pole.

HD

Found it HD.

Here's a link to the answer so don't look if you want to carry on thinking about it.

[SteveHB]

I was wondering what the wires were for when I took these.

[hilldweller]

Found it HD.

Here's a link to the answer so don't look if you want to carry on thinking about it.

Well done that man

You can also find it on Mike Browns site www.mb21.co.uk click on Transmitters, Transmission Gallery, and scroll down the list of transmission sites to Sheffield MF.

You can find good photos of hundreds of masts etc.

When you consider this is the only transmitter for Radio Sheffield on Medium Wave (1035 kHz,) it seems a rum place to put it. Having said that, the coverage map on MB21 shows it gets out to all the outlying districts.

HD

[Stuart0742]

Well done that man

You can also find it on Mike Browns site www.mb21.co.uk click on Transmitters, Transmission Gallery, and scroll down the list of transmission sites to Sheffield MF.

You can find good photos of hundreds of masts etc.

When you consider this is the only transmitter for Radio Sheffield on Medium Wave (1035 kHz,) it seems a rum place to put it. Having said that, the coverage map on MB21 shows it gets out to all the outlying districts.

HD

Well I never, I have seen this aerial many times and just assumed it was somebodies Short Wave one, like you say a bit low tech for the BBC

[hilldweller]

Well I never, I have seen this aerial many times and just assumed it was somebodies Short Wave one, like you say a bit low tech for the BBC

I suppose that's all that's needed. BBC saving us money for once. From Google Maps I think the aerial is about 200 feet long to the pole which together with about 40 feet of down-lead makes a length of 240 feet which makes it a resonant quarter-wave long wire at 1035kHz.

The station output has an effective radiated power of 1kW 'so that would only require a small space perhaps in the swimming bath buildings.

HD

[DaveH]

When you consider this is the only transmitter for Radio Sheffield on Medium Wave (1035 kHz,) it seems a rum place to put it. Having said that, the coverage map on MB21 shows it gets out to all the outlying districts.

HD

Well, it's in funny place (fairly low) and they are only using what for a broadcast station is a very low power.

But, Radio Sheffield is a local station not a national / international one and there lies part of the answer.

Medium wave frequencies have the ability to travel great distances, especially at night, if launched skywards as the signal can then reflect back off the lower E-layer of the ionosphere (the Heavyside Layer). To avoid this power is reduced and the signal, radiating from a low horizontal wire then tends to follow the ground and remain local.

MW is not an ideal choice for local radio. VHF is much better as this relies on "line of sight" and any skyward radiation would penetrate the ionosphere into space and not reflect back, which is why most local stations (including R. Sheffield) have VHF frequencies.

[DaveH]

Well I never, I have seen this aerial many times and just assumed it was somebodies Short Wave one, like you say a bit low tech for the BBC

You are not far wrong at that Stuart.

As you know I used to have a long wire inverted L shortwave receiving aerial at my parents house, - although considerably shorter than 240 feet.

However, HD tells us that this length would be quarter wave resonant at 1035kHz (about 300m) so it would be half wave resonant at 2075kHz (150m) and full wave resonant (standing wave) at 4150kHz (75m). Now these are sw frequencies but not in the broadcast band region. There is a low power tropical band at 75m and there are amateur bands at 180m and 120m.

Long wire aeriels are not "low tech" though, even by BBC standards.

Due to the long wavelengths at LW and MW frequencies the aeriels need to be long to be efficient and so long wires are frequently used. Even at the high powered national and international BBC transmitters like the one at Droitwich (BBC2, BBC4, BBC World Service) what appears to be a lot of masts are merely just supports. The aeriels are the long wires which run between them, a long wire array, a bit like a glorified version of the Radio Sheffield transmitter long wire.

[hilldweller]

Well, it's in funny place (fairly low) and they are only using what for a broadcast station is a very low power.

But, Radio Sheffield is a local station not a national / international one and there lies part of the answer.

Medium wave frequencies have the ability to travel great distances, especially at night, if launched skywards as the signal can then reflect back off the lower E-layer of the ionosphere (the Heavyside Layer). To avoid this power is reduced and the signal, radiating from a low horizontal wire then tends to follow the ground and remain local.

MW is not an ideal choice for local radio. VHF is much better as this relies on "line of sight" and any skyward radiation would penetrate the ionosphere into space and not reflect back, which is why most local stations (including R. Sheffield) have VHF frequencies.

It will all soon be academic anyway as the government has plans to eventually abandon medium wave and VHF FM broadcasting and concentrate all future broadcasting on DAB.

This means that they will be able to sell off relinquished bandwidth to the highest bidder and make a bit more money. The nature of digital broadcasting means that many more channels can fit into the available bandwidth and so even more money to be made.

Of course digital broadcasting can never reach the quality of sound available from good VHF analogue broadcasting even with only one station per multiplex. They are now cramming tens of stations onto a multiplex, using ever lower bit-rates, and the sound quality can be terrible.

There is also the problem of even brand new cars being fitted with only VHF FM radios which will be obsolete in a very few years if the government have their way.

DAB car radios also perform poorly in built-up areas due to the higher frequencies being even more line of sight than the VHF ones.

HD

[vox]

There is also the problem of even brand new cars being fitted with only VHF FM radios which will be obsolete in a very few years if the government have their way.

DAB car radios also perform poorly in built-up areas due to the higher frequencies being even more line of sight than the VHF ones.

HD

I've already thought of that one. My wife's car has one of those built in things which is part of the dashboard. Don't know how we'll replace that.

[DaveH]

It will all soon be academic anyway as the government has plans to eventually abandon medium wave and VHF FM broadcasting and concentrate all future broadcasting on DAB.

This means that they will be able to sell off relinquished bandwidth to the highest bidder and make a bit more money. The nature of digital broadcasting means that many more channels can fit into the available bandwidth and so even more money to be made.

HD

I think it is all a government plot HD

In Nazi Germany there was a radio available to German public which they called something like "der Gorbellsscpeilen" (in slang it meant "Gorbells Gob". It could only pick up 1 frequency and therefore only 1 broadcast, - the Nazi controlled propaganda station (hence it's nickname). It stopped educated, thinking, reasonable Germans from tuning in to foreign shortwave stations like the BBC, the Dutch Hilversum network or the Voice of America which may have given them a very different account of what was happening in the World.

Now with DAB you can only receive what you are given and nothing else, - OK we have a big choice of stations and not just one, - but someone has chosen for us what those stations are going to be, it is not OUR choice! the whole thing seems to me a bit like "der Gorbellsscpeilen"

I don't see how MW frequencies can be sold off to anybody and everybody due to their range of coverage unless they are sold Internationally.

..and as for VHF radio (87 - 108 MHz BAND 2) there was a time when the police and other public services used these frequencies but they were moved off to make way for even more local broadcasting stations. Now they want to move the broadcasters off!!! They could have left it as a public service band in the first place.

Further to this I have noticed that many walkie talkies and radio controlled toys which do notr require licencing use frequencies around 49MHz. I can remember when this frequency was VHF BAND 1 used by the BBC for 405 line black and white television broadcasting.

[DaveH]

There is also the problem of even brand new cars being fitted with only VHF FM radios which will be obsolete in a very few years if the government have their way.

HD

This will actually become a real nightmare, - it's not just car radios is it.

How many things have a built in VHF radio?

HiFi systems, mobile phones, radio alarm clocks, portable radios, etc...

None of these will work anymore

But it will make the manufacturers of DAB radios happy if they can sell everybody a whole range of new radio devices that don't actually do any more than the old one did (it is after all still a radio)

I do have a portable DAB radio.

It cost a fortune compared to an equivalent MW / VHF model. (£45 v £10)

It does work OK and the sound quality is fine, however, it can get through a set of Type C batteries in about 2 to 3 hours of use while the MW / VHF one will last me 6 months on a couple of AA batteries.

As a consequence of this the DAB radio is permenantly run from the mains, - and that defeats the object of having a PORTABLE radio doesn't it, - it's what the trading standards people describe as "not fit for purpose"

[Stuart0742]

This will actually become a real nightmare, - it's not just car radios is it.

How many things have a built in VHF radio?

HiFi systems, mobile phones, radio alarm clocks, portable radios, etc...

None of these will work anymore

But it will make the manufacturers of DAB radios happy if they can sell everybody a whole range of new radio devices that don't actually do any more than the old one did (it is after all still a radio)

I do have a portable DAB radio.

It cost a fortune compared to an equivalent MW / VHF model. (£45 v £10)

It does work OK and the sound quality is fine, however, it can get through a set of Type C batteries in about 2 to 3 hours of use while the MW / VHF one will last me 6 months on a couple of AA batteries.

As a consequence of this the DAB radio is permenantly run from the mains, - and that defeats the object of having a PORTABLE radio doesn't it, - it's what the trading standards people describe as "not fit for purpose"

I only listen to the radio in the car, so I will have to buy a new car

[DaveH]

I only listen to the radio in the car, so I will have to buy a new car

But you own a fleet of cars so will you have to buy a new fleet? lol

[hilldweller]

This will actually become a real nightmare, - it's not just car radios is it.

How many things have a built in VHF radio?

HiFi systems, mobile phones, radio alarm clocks, portable radios, etc...

None of these will work anymore

But it will make the manufacturers of DAB radios happy if they can sell everybody a whole range of new radio devices that don't actually do any more than the old one did (it is after all still a radio)

I do have a portable DAB radio.

It cost a fortune compared to an equivalent MW / VHF model. (£45 v £10)

It does work OK and the sound quality is fine, however, it can get through a set of Type C batteries in about 2 to 3 hours of use while the MW / VHF one will last me 6 months on a couple of AA batteries.

As a consequence of this the DAB radio is permenantly run from the mains, - and that defeats the object of having a PORTABLE radio doesn't it, - it's what the trading standards people describe as "not fit for purpose"

Just to further muddy the waters, some broadcasters are wanting to change the tranmissions from DAB to DAB+.

DAB+ broadcasts cannot be received on a DAB radio normally. Only recently bought equipment may be modified with a firmware upgrade if designed to accommodate this.

DAB+ is capable of better sound quality for a given bit-rate, but of course the powers-that-be will see this as an opportunity to cram even more channels per multiplex at the same low bit rates instead of giving us better sound.

Even the BBC are only transmitting the Radio 3 programme at a 192kb/second bit-rate equivalent to FM radio quality, Radio 2 gets 128 kb/second and some BBC programmes rate as low as 80 kb/second.

The expensive Onkyo Micro Hi-Fi I bought a couple of years ago is apparently not capable of up-grading.

If you are thinking of buying into DAB I would be inclined to wait a bit, by the time FM disappears we will probably be onto DAB++++

HD

[Stuart0742]

Just to further muddy the waters, some broadcasters are wanting to change the tranmissions from DAB to DAB+.

DAB+ broadcasts cannot be received on a DAB radio normally. Only recently bought equipment may be modified with a firmware upgrade if designed to accommodate this.

DAB+ is capable of better sound quality for a given bit-rate, but of course the powers-that-be will see this as an opportunity to cram even more channels per multiplex at the same low bit rates instead of giving us better sound.

Even the BBC are only transmitting the Radio 3 programme at a 192kb/second bit-rate equivalent to FM radio quality, Radio 2 gets 128 kb/second and some BBC programmes rate as low as 80 kb/second.

The expensive Onkyo Micro Hi-Fi I bought a couple of years ago is apparently not capable of up-grading.

If you are thinking of buying into DAB I would be inclined to wait a bit, by the time FM disappears we will probably be onto DAB++++

HD

All that will happen is that people will not bother, audiences will decrease, then the BBC can cut even more services.

I shan't mess about buying a new radio, if I buy a new car and it comes with a radio that works, all the better.

[DaveH]

If you are thinking of buying into DAB I would be inclined to wait a bit, by the time FM disappears we will probably be onto DAB++++

HD

I'm not thinking of buying DAB or even DAB+ but I suppose its one of those things that will eventually be forced on us anyway.

Fortunately, as the rich world countries make their money on selling DAB I still have my old shortwave communications receiver still in working condition (given I can get a replacement ECH81 valve). I am hoping there will still be some poor third world countries that broadcast in English and are so poor they carry on using their 1kW AM shortwave transmitters so that I don't have to bother for quite a while with DAB. Again, unlike DAB, it would be my freedom of choice to tune in and listen to these stations. Only drawback is that SW sound quality is about as bad as it gets, - certainly worse than DAB.

[DaveH]

All that will happen is that people will not bother, audiences will decrease, then the BBC can cut even more services.

I shan't mess about buying a new radio, if I buy a new car and it comes with a radio that works, all the better.

That's true, - but the BBC make some strange decisions when it comes to spending money and making cuts.

"OK we have £18,000,000 spare to spend this year, shall we use it to maintain our prestigious multilingual World Service broadcasts or shall we squander it on wages to an obnoxious arrogant presenter who can hardly speak English"

"I know, - lets go with the second one!"

[SteveHB]

And on the subject of Heely baths, I just discovered (whilst looking for information about the aerial) that the baths still has a sign which says "Russian Swimming Baths"

Any guesses where.

I have searched all round the outside of Heeley baths today and seen no sign,

can only think that the "Russian Swimming Baths" sign is covered from view by a new sign,

or it is inside the building ?

[DaveH]

I have searched all round the outside of Heeley baths today and seen no sign,

can only think that the "Russian Swimming Baths" sign is covered from view by a new sign,

or it is inside the building ?

The answer could be here on this link Steve

Russian Swimming Baths

[SteveHB]

The answer could be here on this link Steve

Russian Swimming Baths

[DaveH]

Perhaps that wire which passes for a Radio Sheffield broadcast aeriel was secretly a disguised Soviet cold war spy mast

We may have had "Reds under our beds" (or at least Communists in our communal swimming pool) without knowing it!

Better keep a close watch on that one comrade.

Or should I be saying

Улучшайте содержание пристальное наблюдение на том одном камраде.

[vox]

Another guess

That's Not a Guess, It is The Correct Answer!

Well done Richard,

I will post up more details/photos in the morn.

Also as a consolation prize,

hilldweller will be receiving a packet of Worther's Originals,

for his contributions that lead to the correct answer.

Can't see that you posted a full photo of the fountain steve.

Here it is anyway in case you didn't.

[SteveHB]

Can't see that you posted a full photo of the fountain steve.

Here it is anyway in case you didn't.

I did vox, added them to the 'Drinking fountains' Topic and put a link in this Topic (post #1327)

Details added to .. Drinking fountains Topic