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Sheffield Ghosts and Haunted Places

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Perhaps the famous and well known of all Sheffield ghosts has to be the apparition of Mary Queen of Scots that haunts Manor Castle. Now the ghost of Mary Queen of Scots has appeared all over the country, but seems to be a regular inhabitant of the old Turret House of Manor Castle.

A few years ago I was part of the group that set up the first Friends of Manor Lodge/Castle. We started open days on the site taking people around, often on Sundays. Because the Turret House has the tradition of being haunted by Mary Stuart, even though she probably never went inside that building! It attracted all sorts of weird and wonderful people to see it. At that time (the late 1990's) the building had not been refurbished and we had to limit the persons going in. So we had the visitors in groups, with guides such as myself touring the grounds and a guide or two in the Turret House. Only one group was allowed in the house at a time. Because I was good on the grounds I spent most of the day doing that. After one busy Sunday, I went back to the T. H. and up on the top floor I noticed a Mars Bar on the mantlepiece :blink: I said to one of the guides has somebody left a Mars Bar and the guide told me what happened that day. One of the visitors, a male I think, during the guide's tale of the room, said that he was the reincarnation of Anthony Babbington, plus that he could sense that Mary's sprit had been here. I seem to recall the guide saying that he kneeled down and begged Mary's forgiveness. And then placed the Mars Bar to feed Mary's ghost. A sort of offering for the sprit of Mary :) .

Well it was there for many years that Mars Bar. It made a fun story to tell. The Turret House has since been done up and Green Estate (who now control the site) went all rule book over the site. So if the Mars Bar has gone it won't be Mary's Ghost that scoffed it, it will have broken a safety rule! he he

I had some fun times, but it was hard work taking people around the site, but I couldn't stomach the silly rules that they will have now in place. It just takes all the fun out of it. :)

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A few years ago ------------

---------------- Well it was there for many years that Mars Bar. It made a fun story to tell. The Turret House has since been done up and Green Estate (who now control the site) went all rule book over the site. So if the Mars Bar has gone it won't be Mary's Ghost that scoffed it, it will have broken a safety rule! he he

I hope someone makes sure that that story gets written into the history for visitors in years to come.

After all, little anecdotes from hundreds of years ago are just the same, but older.

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.... then placed the Mars Bar to feed Mary's ghost. A sort of offering for the sprit of Mary

To help her work, rest and play lol

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I worked in a lot of pubs when I was younger, (indeed when I was older too - that was pub management though, and if done right, I'm not sure it can truly be defined as work) around Sheffield before moving to London. Each pub seems to have a ghost or two.

The Shakey on Bradfield Road, Hillsborough is said to be haunted by a Mrs Rollins - a former landlady who supposedly took a tumble down the stairs. Two of the barmaids that worked there (one of them sadly is no longer with us, but worked there for near on 30 years) would make reference to her whenever a light bulb mysteriously exploded - which happened more frequently than you'd expect. A glass once smashed on the middle of a shelf at the end of an evening when we were sat around talking about the place being haunted. Now that was a coincidence and a half -- or maybe not.

The Deep End (Now Rawson Spring) is said to have the ghost of a child who drowned at the site when it was a swimming baths. The cellar in that place was a confusing maze of darkened tunnels in which we took great pleasure in hiding a mannequin in various positions, only just in sight. Scared a lot of people with that.

The Park Hotel (Wadsley Lane) is said to have the ghost of a woman who committed suicide when the site was a coaching in. She was spurned by her lover and took her own life, by hanging herself from the ceiling beams.

The Washington (Devonshire Green) used to be a Dr's surgery or something along those lines, and is said to have an unnamed spook that walks across floors making a fair bit of noise.

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The Washington (Devonshire Green) used to be a Dr's surgery or something along those lines, and is said to have an unnamed spook that walks across floors making a fair bit of noise.

I can't remember the Washington ever being anything other than a pub and the backlog of keepers

doesn't suggest anything different.

But don't you think that most pubs claim to have a ghost for publicit? that's what I think.

Has anyone ever seen a ghost in a pub and not just claim to have seen one.

I think it's a case of " Come and try our spirits " :o :blink:

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I can't remember the Washington ever being anything other than a pub and the backlog of keepers

doesn't suggest anything different.

But don't you think that most pubs claim to have a ghost for publicit? that's what I think.

Has anyone ever seen a ghost in a pub and not just claim to have seen one.

I think it's a case of " Come and try our spirits " :o:blink:

You are right ukelele lady.

Perhaps they said "we've got some spirits in the pub" meaning distilled alcoholic drinks containing around 40% alcohol, rather than "we've got a ghost in our pub".

I am very sceptical about the existance of ghosts anyway, is anyone with a scientific background would be.

The evidence for ghosts is very thin and weak and is often either something in the observers imagination (halucinations during illness or while under the influence of ...)rather than reality is a misinterpretation of something much more logical and ordinary (light bent by refraction being interpreted as a UFO or something moving in the darkness)

Most "ghost hunters" I have met are NOT trained scientists and do not go about it in the correct way to collect evidence (to be honest, most "ghost hunters" I have met have just been a bunch of nutters <_< ) so, if we consider only reality and recorded and verified events I think the answer to your question would have to be NO, - I don't think anyone has actually seen a ghost in a pub. They may have been drunk and thought they saw one. lol

In any case to verify the sighting it would require at least 2 independent witnesses to the same event to eliminate a false claim.

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You are right ukelele lady.

Perhaps they said "we've got some spirits in the pub" meaning distilled alcoholic drinks containing around 40% alcohol, rather than "we've got a ghost in our pub".

I am very sceptical about the existance of ghosts anyway, is anyone with a scientific background would be.

The evidence for ghosts is very thin and weak and is often either something in the observers imagination (halucinations during illness or while under the influence of ...)rather than reality is a misinterpretation of something much more logical and ordinary (light bent by refraction being interpreted as a UFO or something moving in the darkness)

Most "ghost hunters" I have met are NOT trained scientists and do not go about it in the correct way to collect evidence (to be honest, most "ghost hunters" I have met have just been a bunch of nutters <_< ) so, if we consider only reality and recorded and verified events I think the answer to your question would have to be NO, - I don't think anyone has actually seen a ghost in a pub. They may have been drunk and thought they saw one. lol

In any case to verify the sighting it would require at least 2 independent witnesses to the same event to eliminate a false claim.

I don't doubt that a few premises have spread a rumour of a haunting to garner publicity, but for the majority it's just tradition I guess. Few people outside of the staff and dedicated regulars know anything about the stories I've mentioned, and I imagine it's the same story in pubs the length and breadth of the land.

Interesting that there's no record of the Washington being a Dr's, I suppose that's one of those myths that's repeated till people believe it. Like drinking 8 glasses of water a day or Vitamin C is good for colds or that the X-Factor singles are anything other than utter tosh.

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I don't doubt that a few premises have spread a rumour of a haunting to garner publicity, but for the majority it's just tradition I guess. Few people outside of the staff and dedicated regulars know anything about the stories I've mentioned, and I imagine it's the same story in pubs the length and breadth of the land.

Interesting that there's no record of the Washington being a Dr's, I suppose that's one of those myths that's repeated till people believe it. Like drinking 8 glasses of water a day or Vitamin C is good for colds or that the X-Factor singles are anything other than utter tosh.

Trouble is, as I am sure you know, getting evidence of true paranormal activity is not easy as ghosts never "appear on demand" and always catch you unaware, - otherwise they wouldn't be frightening would they? lol

For the record,

Drinking 8 glasses of water a day is good for you

Only PARTIALLY TRUE. it makes you urinate more and so carries waste and toxins out of the system. The body is very good at maintaining its water level within working limits so unless it is very arid, hot & dry, arguments about "keeping the brain hydrated" are a load of rubbish.

Taking Vitamin C is good for colds

Now this one was actually started by the very emminent scientist Linus Pauling, and with his name behind it people thought it must be true. He took large daily doses of Vitamin C himself and claimed never to get colds. It turned out to be FALSE. However Pauling did live to be 93 so he didn't do too bad.

X Factor singles are not a load of old tosh

Clearly this one is FALSE as all X Factor singles are utter crap.

The rumour seems to be proliferated by silly teenage schoolgirls who listen avidly to any old rubbish.

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The Washington has always been a pub as far as I remember. The nearest I can come up with is that it's built on or near a former Jewish burial ground.

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Another spooky story I can relate to you again concerns the Manor Lodge. However this one is much harder to pass off as mere nonsense. It's more of a paranormal thing rather than "ghost" related, but I think this thread suits it.

Anyway at the time (early 90's) I was teaching computers at MATREC (Manor Training & Rescource Center) and during a coffee break, I got into a disscussion about the history of Manor Lodge with the students (adults) of the different classes. There were a lot of women trying to pick up skills so they could return to work at that time and thanks to the timing of courses many mothers could access the courses. So MATREC was full of women students. It was well known I was into the history of the area and Manor Lodge was brought up by someone. There wasn't any open days or anything going off on site so many people were curious about it and since lots of students lived around the Manor Park area it was often talked about. On this day one of the women students asked me if there was school there. I said did she mean the one on Manor Lane - Manor Lodge School? "No" she replied "where the ruins are?". Well not now, but there was one built into or on the ruins, I explained to her. With that her face went into shock mode :blink: So I asked why she wanted to know? So she explained that for sometime she and her young son had gone past the Manor Lodge Ruins on the local bus and her son when he saw them would point them out to his mum and say "Mummy that's where I used to go to school!" He did this quite often it seems. So no wonder she was shocked :blink:

The school was part of the Wesleyan Methodists movement and features in A History of Wesleyan Methodism In Sheffield Park, by J.J. Graham 1914. You can see the building in the picture of the Lodge on Picture Sheffield. The one with the mine workings in the background.

His mother had put it down to a child's imagination. But she didn't after I said that. The child was too young to have read that book, or even to be taught about it at school, even if any school teacher would know about the school at Sheffield Manor Lodge site. So was this a case of past life memory? Afterwards I did read up on cases where children have had past life images flooding thier minds. Many researches into past lives would not delve into the minds of children for fear of damage to the child's mind. But others did it anyway and came up with things that science can't easily pass off.

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So was this a case of past life memory? Afterwards I did read up on cases where children have had past life images flooding thier minds. Many researches into past lives would not delve into the minds of children for fear of damage to the child's mind. But others did it anyway and came up with things that science can't easily pass off.

I thought that most (scientific) research into reincarnation (coming back again having lived previously) was carried out on children because they had developing minds, would talk openly about what they thought, would be in a position where they wouldn't be able to make stories up based on prior knowledge of historical facts and because as the brain develops and becomes adult some of these feelings and images young children get either go away or become supressed into the subconcious mind.

There is (scientific) evidence that people can seemingly remember events in a previous life which can actually be verified to be true with extraordinary accuracy of detail.

However, this does NOT necessarily mean that you have lived before and have actually had those experiences as people tend to assume.

We are NOT born with empty brains to fill up with information as we go through life, at birth the brain contains a lot of stuff already, - we have instincts and reactions, we have a basic personality which makes us "us" and not anyone else. Most of this information is hereditary, - it is in our genetic make up.

Unfortunately science is only just starting to master genetics in a big way and is more concerned (rightly so) with issues relating to genetically transmitted diseases and defects and how we could eradicate and correct them, ie "How can we correct the Down's Syndrome gene?", or the haemophillia gene, or the colour blindness gene, or any one of hundreds of others.

Science has not yet turned its attention fully to the "genetics of psychology" and looked at "what information (experiences) are passed on to the next generation into a newly forming brain.

Just a possible explanation to this phenomena.

I have come across this before and vaguely feel that I had a similar experience myself up to the age of about 5 or 6, at which point it disappears into the haze as my brain developed and supressed it so that now I can't even say what it was, - it is now a FEELING rather than a VISION.

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While it would be nice to think that memories are passed down from generation to generation in the mind of the young person, it doesn't explain many tales of reincarnation that I have either read or seen about. Granted that young lad could have had a distant ancestor who went to that school. But he could also have been that ancestor! It wouldn't be too far out to think that way, as the population gets smaller the further back you go. Meaning that there would be a need for "souls" to pass from generation to generation.

However there are cases of children remembering events of another person, who died only a few weeks or days before they were born and who were not related to them in any way, often because they were in another part of the world. Nor does it explain the fact that physical marks on the child's body match those of a dead person that they claim to be. Marks such as bullet holes etc, that match in great detail.

Of course a lot of people claim to be this or that person, mostly a famous person such as Cleopatra or Shakespeare. Indeed if all that claimed to be these celebs were, then you could easily say that there would be 100's of them. But even that isn't as far fetched as it sounds. For I'm certain that there are lots of asylums with Cleopatra's or Bonapart in them right now.

I've seen a lot of so called scientist putting the cobwash on ideas like reincarnation. One way they do it is to match up records with what a person recalls. When they past life person gets some crucial fact wrong they dismiss the claim. The problem with this is that human minds don't recall events in the same way as information stored on records in libraries and archives. I found this out when a group of us historians got together to record old people's memories. We had a hell of a job matching these memories up with records in archive sources. All sorts of mistakes were seen even in those with good memories! If we applied the same logic as the reincarnation cases we could say that nearly half had not lived the life they did. ;-)

I personally like to think that the "force" or to put it in its most common name the "Soul". Lives in a sort of symbotic relationship with it's host body. Indeed without the soul coming into a body (it appears at the time of birth seems the most common time for this to happen) the human baby would be born dead. Such relationships are common in the animal world, so it seems logical to me for this to happen. However it's likely not everything goes perfectly in this, hence the problems that people have in life.

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But he could also have been that ancestor! It wouldn't be too far out to think that way, as the population gets smaller the further back you go. Meaning that there would be a need for "souls" to pass from generation to generation.

I don't follow the logic here.

At one time there were fewer living people and now there are more (population increase) so now you need more "souls".

Having said that, at any one time there are only around 3 generations of anyones family alive even though they have a history going back hundreds of generations. I seem to remember Arthur C. Clark opened the book version of "2001 a space odyssey" with the sentence, -

"Behind every man alive today there stands 30 ghosts, for that is the number by which the dead outnumber the living"

I don't know where he got that figure from or how it was worked out (probably just made it up) but you get the idea, there SHOULD be more souls / ghosts / whatever than people.

Also your change in poulation with time opens up a well known paradox.

As you go back in time the poulation of the world decreases.

But

As you go back in time the number of ancestors you have increases (2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 greatgrandparents, etc)

So, go back far enough and you have such a large number of ancestors that it would exceed the total number of people alive in the World at that time.

You would be related to EVERYBODY.

But so would everyone else in the world today.

We are ALL related in some way.

Many religions would put this point in time down to some "creation" theory, eg the story of Adam & Eve

Modern Science would probably put this point down to a place in East Africa a couple of million years ago where the first human races evolved.

So do you want more "souls/ghosts" than people now or the other way round?

As the population rises so does the death rate, - is the number of "souls/ghosts" increasing as well?

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However there are cases of children remembering events of another person, who died only a few weeks or days before they were born and who were not related to them in any way, often because they were in another part of the world.

Can you give any VERIFIED examples of this?

I am not really into the supernatural so don't know a lot of cases but in the 1990's ITV Supernatural series "Strange but True" Michael Aspel, the presenter gives a 20th century case of reincarnation and says that 50 years or thereabouts is the usual time for this to happen (having said that I am sure the featured case was a lot less).

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Nor does it explain the fact that physical marks on the child's body match those of a dead person that they claim to be. Marks such as bullet holes etc, that match in great detail.

A bullet hole which proved fatal to someone would, by definition be equally as fatal to anyone else carrying the same wound.

As far as I know there are several confirmed cases of carrying matching marks to someone else, and if this marks are wounds they are classed as "stigmata", although frequently they are not wounds but are birthmarks and the like.

The Stigmata of Christ (carrying the wounds that Christ received on the Cross) has come in for a bit of scrutiny and in many, but not all, cases it has been shown that the alleged stigmata wounds were in fact self inflicted.

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Of course a lot of people claim to be this or that person, mostly a famous person such as Cleopatra or Shakespeare. Indeed if all that claimed to be these celebs were, then you could easily say that there would be 100's of them. But even that isn't as far fetched as it sounds. For I'm certain that there are lots of asylums with Cleopatra's or Bonapart in them right now.

Old Ebeneezer,

Thought he was Julius Caeser,

So they put him in a home,

Where they gave him, medicinal compound,

Now he's Emperor of Rome

lol Song verse from "Lily the Pink by The Scaffold, 1968

In 1966 a singer called Jerry Samuels had a hit witha song called "They're Coming To take Me Away Ha-Haaa!" and an album of songs all connected to a theme of mental illness and being institutionalised.

Samuels did this under the name of, not Napoleon BONAPART but NAPOLEON XIV.

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Souls are not created when a person is born. Most people (such as myself) think that the population of Earth is determined by the other side of life so to speak. Some think that each soul is on a journey, learning about life. So some of us will have been reborn many times while most will have only two or three lives. Many think that souls travel in groups. So you incounter the same "people" all the time.

A lot of religions have bits from rebirth or the other side incorpareted into them. For instance Jesus seems to spout a lot of these ideas. Such as "Judge not lest you should be judge". And there's the concept of judgement day. Which clearly referes to the review of the "soul" life after death. So what's the other side like? That for us is impossible to understand. Look at like this. Imagine it's another dimension. Clearly life and death or the doors to it. But though a "being" (for want of a better word) from there can understand both it's own world and ours. We can only view our own world and think of the other side in those terms. To make things clear. If you are a two-dimension person, how do you describe "up"? But we live in 3-D so we can see up.

Is this down to God? Looking at the history of humans it would appear not. For the idea of a single God doesn't fit with our development. Indeed mostly we worshiped the Sun or Moon. I myself think that the christian God was developed from the Sun God of Egypt - the Aten. The Egyptian King Akhenaton said there was only one true God, that of the Aten and banned all others. He got the boot and most traces were erased from history of this God. It wasn't till the 1800's when all this was discovered. The concept of this God (being the Sun) was lost but not the idea. So it was picked up by the slaves who went on to use it for the relgion we know today. But there are clues to his true id. Even in the Bible! Such as: 'he shines his light on everyone' etc. And of course the fact that an Egyptian left with the Exodus. In fact many left with them who still had faith in the one true God, more than lkely.

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A bullet hole which proved fatal to someone would, by definition be equally as fatal to anyone else carrying the same wound.

As far as I know there are several confirmed cases of carrying matching marks to someone else, and if this marks are wounds they are classed as "stigmata", although frequently they are not wounds but are birthmarks and the like.

Birthmarks, moles etc have been found to match past life injurious. There have been many cases on TV and lots of books on the subject, far too many to mention here. The mark on the surface of a person's skin indicates where a bullet entered. Some cases have even been shown on serious birth defects caused by damage in a previous life. Sometimes these marks etc didn't happen at death of the past ilfe person.

Some other thoughts include the type of job you do. For example it's likely some of the Germans that died in the war now work at UK Social Security (SS) offices giving out war pensions. he he

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In 1966 a singer called Jerry Samuels had a hit witha song called "They're Coming To take Me Away Ha-Haaa!" and an album of songs all connected to a theme of mental illness and being institutionalised.

Samuels did this under the name of, not Napoleon BONAPART but NAPOLEON XIV.

Yes and if you listen to the lyrics he goes mad because his DOG left him! :blink: he he

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I've seen a lot of so called scientist putting the cobwash on ideas like reincarnation. One way they do it is to match up records with what a person recalls. When they past life person gets some crucial fact wrong they dismiss the claim. The problem with this is that human minds don't recall events in the same way as information stored on records in libraries and archives. I found this out when a group of us historians got together to record old people's memories. We had a hell of a job matching these memories up with records in archive sources. All sorts of mistakes were seen even in those with good memories! If we applied the same logic as the reincarnation cases we could say that nearly half had not lived the life they did. ;-)

Being a scientist (a qualified one, not a so called one), all scientists use the "scientific method" in establishing something. This means observations, an hypothesis, tests (experiments), a theory, more tests and possibly, depending on the results, a scientific law. Scientists have open minds and do not dismiss or rule out anything unless the evidence clearly goes against it.

It is a tried and tested system and it works.

Now historians and geneologists also use exactly the same scientific methods. To establish what happened in a past event they collect evidence and then attempt to piece together what actually happened, - and they don't believe that something happened if there is no evidence (that would make it mythology) or if the evidence goes against it. To this extent historians are scientists and they use this method because they know it works.

However, many ghost hunters (who I have previously described as "a load of nutters") do NOT work like this.

They have closed minds.

They clearly believe in ghosts and have already constructed their own imagined "reality" about them. All they are doing is looking for evidence to support their own idea and are discounting anything else, - they don't want the logical explanation or the real reality, they just want "their ghosts"

To this end they are looking for something in particuler to "prove their point" rather than to find out the truth.

..and as we all know if you look hard enough for something with a very blinkered view of the World then you are sure to find it. ;-)

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Indeed without the soul coming into a body (it appears at the time of birth seems the most common time for this to happen) the human baby would be born dead.

I can't agree with you here History dude and neither would most people.

Although Pro- and Anti- abortionists will argue about it life begins well before the time of birth.

An anti abortionist, and me as a scientist, would argue that at the moment of conception when the egg is fertilised a new life comes into existance. Genetically that embryonic ball of cells has a DNA make up which is neither its mothers or its fathers, - it is unique, it is differernt, it is a new being.

Even the most ardent pro abortionists would fall short at saying a new life doesn't exist until just before birth. The law arbitarily draws the line at 20 odd weeks into pregnancy (about half way through) but with improvements in premature baby care even ones born earlier than that can now survive.

And as an any expectant mother will tell you, the developing foetus can move, kick and do all sorts of things an independent living baby can do. It already has a beating heart, a functioning brain, working organs and working senses.

Quite clearly it is already alive.

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Souls are not created when a person is born. Most people (such as myself) think that the population of Earth is determined by the other side of life so to speak. Some think that each soul is on a journey, learning about life. So some of us will have been reborn many times while most will have only two or three lives. Many think that souls travel in groups. So you incounter the same "people" all the time.

A lot of religions have bits from rebirth or the other side incorpareted into them. For instance Jesus seems to spout a lot of these ideas. Such as "Judge not lest you should be judge". And there's the concept of judgement day. Which clearly referes to the review of the "soul" life after death. So what's the other side like? That for us is impossible to understand. Look at like this. Imagine it's another dimension. Clearly life and death or the doors to it. But though a "being" (for want of a better word) from there can understand both it's own world and ours. We can only view our own world and think of the other side in those terms. To make things clear. If you are a two-dimension person, how do you describe "up"? But we live in 3-D so we can see up.

Is this down to God? Looking at the history of humans it would appear not. For the idea of a single God doesn't fit with our development. Indeed mostly we worshiped the Sun or Moon. I myself think that the christian God was developed from the Sun God of Egypt - the Aten. The Egyptian King Akhenaton said there was only one true God, that of the Aten and banned all others. He got the boot and most traces were erased from history of this God. It wasn't till the 1800's when all this was discovered. The concept of this God (being the Sun) was lost but not the idea. So it was picked up by the slaves who went on to use it for the relgion we know today. But there are clues to his true id. Even in the Bible! Such as: 'he shines his light on everyone' etc. And of course the fact that an Egyptian left with the Exodus. In fact many left with them who still had faith in the one true God, more than lkely.

Clearly our views differ on this one History dude.

I do not have any underlying beliefs, dogmas or faith in unknown entities.

As science is a "way of life" to me I think like one all the time and accept very little without evidence (however, that does not mean it isn't true, - just that it isn't proved). I suppose that would make me a bit of a humanist really.

However, I have been brought up in Christian way so if anything I am quite definately a post reformation Christian born after the age of enlightenment. A person who upholds Christian morals and ethics, believes in Jesus (because their is sufficient genuine evidence about his life) BUT explores the universe we live in with inquisitive awe and wonder in an attempt to understand it.

Contrary to popular belief, scientists usually have their religious beliefs strengthened rather than weakened by their study as the beauty and structure of the universe, be it the infinity of space or the submicroscopic world within the atom creates an awe and wonder of where it all came from and perhaps there is a grand creator, - a God.

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Yes and if you listen to the lyrics he goes mad because his DOG left him! :blink:he he

Absolutely correct History dude!

"They're coming to take me away Ha-Haaa!", although only a minor hit (No.5 in British charts) and although NAPOLEON XIV is considered a "one hit wonder" there are 2 follow up songs to it.

The first one, by NAPOLEON XIV again is called "They're coming to get me again Ha-Haaa!"

The second one, by a female singer known as JOSEPHINE XV is called "I'm happy they took you away Ha-Haa!"

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I can't agree with you here History dude and neither would most people.

Although Pro- and Anti- abortionists will argue about it life begins well before the time of birth.

An anti abortionist, and me as a scientist, would argue that at the moment of conception when the egg is fertilised a new life comes into existance. Genetically that embryonic ball of cells has a DNA make up which is neither its mothers or its fathers, - it is unique, it is differernt, it is a new being.

Even the most ardent pro abortionists would fall short at saying a new life doesn't exist until just before birth. The law arbitarily draws the line at 20 odd weeks into pregnancy (about half way through) but with improvements in premature baby care even ones born earlier than that can now survive.

And as an any expectant mother will tell you, the developing foetus can move, kick and do all sorts of things an independent living baby can do. It already has a beating heart, a functioning brain, working organs and working senses.

Quite clearly it is already alive.

What I said says nothing about the rights or wrong of the abortionist argument. A body can be kept alive and that's what the baby is a living body. It would function like that till a "soul" enters. Remember I said that they work in a symbotic relationship with the body. If the soul does not enter or can't for some reason, then the baby's functions cease. It's the same with someone on a life surport machine. If the soul has left then the body will die. Human and animals all have a symbotic relationship with bacteria. We use them to digest green materials as well as other ways. We don't have a choice in this. It's the same with souls.

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Being a scientist (a qualified one, not a so called one), all scientists use the "scientific method" in establishing something. This means observations, an hypothesis, tests (experiments), a theory, more tests and possibly, depending on the results, a scientific law. Scientists have open minds and do not dismiss or rule out anything unless the evidence clearly goes against it.

It is a tried and tested system and it works.

Now historians and geneologists also use exactly the same scientific methods. To establish what happened in a past event they collect evidence and then attempt to piece together what actually happened, - and they don't believe that something happened if there is no evidence (that would make it mythology) or if the evidence goes against it. To this extent historians are scientists and they use this method because they know it works.

Then you haven't read James Burke's Book The Day The Universe Changed. :rolleyes:

That shows that science is often shaped by the world a scientists lives in. For instance the leading thinkers of the day in Paris told poor working farmers that the rocks falling out of the sky on there land was nonsence. Then the French revolution happened and the new leading thinkers said they were metors. So it would be nice to think that "Scientists have open minds and do not dismiss or rule out anything". But in practice they don't.

Much of it boils down to money. Many scientists work in labs connected to university. If the university doesn't surport what they do funding will stop. In the west the "occult" investigation by science is frownd upon. So a scientist putting effort into proving that a medium is talking to a ghost, wouldn't be in work long.

As you say you have been trained to be a scientist, with all that implies and the same applies to historians. But at the end of the day you are not a computer. You will make mistakes and you will judge things based in a non-science way. Even not questioning a leading expert, who could be wrong.

The last point "It is a tried and tested system and it works."

Not always. One scientists developed a test to prove the speed of light theory. 186 thousand miles per sec... The test proved it did. Then another came up with a better test and proved it didn't.

I don't hear of anyone saying that the speed of light is not 186..... Have you ;-)

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