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carlie167

Sheffields Rivers

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Anyone know what purpose the wall that runs down the far side of the weir would serve,

It resembles a bywash to me ?

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Anyone know what purpose the wall that runs down the far side of the weir would serve,

It resembles a bywash to me ?

Did it continue upstream beyond the weir ?

If it did could it be to prevent "backwatering" of a wheel further upstream.

It was sometimes necessary to segregate the tail goit of a waterwheel from the main river until the water level in the main flow had fallen enough to prevent water backing up (and slowing) the wheel.

An example using upright stone slabs can be seen at Hollins Bridge, Rivelin.

HD

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Did it continue upstream beyond the weir ?

If it did could it be to prevent "backwatering" of a wheel further upstream.

It was sometimes necessary to segregate the tail goit of a waterwheel from the main river until the water level in the main flow had fallen enough to prevent water backing up (and slowing) the wheel.

An example using upright stone slabs can be seen at Hollins Bridge, Rivelin.

HD

Not sure HD,

but i do not think the wall looks old enough to have had connectios to an upstream water wheel.

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Not sure HD,

but i do not think the wall looks old enough to have had connectios to an upstream water wheel.

Looking at a Google satellite image the wall only extends to either side of the weir

was there some sort of outfall/inlet behind it to the adjoining works

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Map as at 1890:

Nothing shown Edmund !

My thoughts are that it was a bywash from top of weir to feed a constant supply of water to a sump (if that's the correct word ?)

for extraction to be used in something like a foundry, built well after the 1890's.

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Looking at the aerial photo the water appears to be moving down the "bywash" in a series of small waterfalls.

Could it be a fish ladder to enable spawning fish to get upstream ?

Similar perhaps to the one that's just been built by the Meadowhall weir.

HD

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A couple of old photos of Norton Hammer, around 1900?

I think those buildings in the photographs can be seen on this 1890's map,

at the northern end of the mill pond (the dam head).

Chesterfield Road is seen on the R/H side of the map

Flash Earth

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Uncovered by recent bank-side clearance,

River Sheaf, Broadfield Road, looking south towards Broadfield Court/Littlle London Road.

Link to Flash Earth

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Anyone know what purpose the wall that runs down the far side of the weir would serve,

It resembles a bywash to me ?

Does anyone know the significance if any of the graffiti figure on the wall? There's one on a board on the island in the top dam in Endcliffe Park, and three ot four on the wall by the weir at Hunters Bar.

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Does anyone know the significance if any of the graffiti figure on the wall? There's one on a board on the island in the top dam in Endcliffe Park, and three ot four on the wall by the weir at Hunters Bar.

Horace

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I recognise the character, but why does it appear on walls next to rivers I wonder?

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New to Sheffield History forums. Working on a PhD at the moment, of which part of it is about charting the "lost rivers" of Sheffield. Not only the main culverted sections of streams and rivers, but also the smallest brooks and springs that have been lost, drained or buried - and in some cases "captured" into the sewer system (increasing sewage treatment costs etc).

I hope to be able to add some maps of lost rivers in the near future, and any information from yourselves to help to verify the results with your local history knowledge would be appreciated.

Take for example the Jervis Lumb stream which is featured in a forum here: http://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic/1026-jervis-lum/

My results have I think successfully and quickly mapped out its historical route, and there are many more smaller springs and streams across the city such as in Greystones, Lowfield, Steel Bank etc that I'm currently finishing up.

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There's a spring in Greystones which no longer appears on the surface. I don't know its entire course, but it passes under St Gabriel's Church, and used to feed a trough in the wall on Dobbin Hill, near the Greystones Rd end of the wall in front of the house on the corner. There's a grate there, usually blocked, but you can hear the water running below.

This sketch is from the Tatton Notebooks in the Local Studies library

There's also the brook at Nether Green which runs behind the Tesco services, and behind the buildings on Nether Green Rd to join the Porter just below the outfall of Ibbotson dam. I believe it's called the Crimicar Brook?

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I recognise the character, but why does it appear on walls next to rivers I wonder?

That's what you get from teaching art in schools ;-)

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I have released a draft of the "Lost Rivers, Streams, Brooks and Springs of Sheffield".

You can view it at www.facebook.com/DaylightingUrbanRivers as an image, or download the files to load into Google Earth to explore better.

You should find all the main watercourses such as Sheaf and Porter, traced with their routes even through the extensively culverted sections. You'll also find the smaller streams and spring-fed rivulets that once scattered the Sheffield area, which may no longer flow to the rivers today, but instead may have been captured into the sewer system (the other subject of my research).

Please note, that some of the shown locations are highly certain, some are nearer to "best guesses" from the available limited information. The methods/data used to compile this "Lost Rivers" map are: modern maps, historical maps, historical accounts, topographic flow path modelling, local information such as from yourselves and sourced via threads at Sheffield Forum etc.

I would appreciate feedback on any suggestions/corrections you can make, and am happy to discuss the evidence I found for certain shown streams.

Bayleaf: Fantastic reference to the spring in that area. I am pleased that my results showed a spring and course of the stream through there. I also have reports of houses in the area having a small channel through the cellar to convey the flow.

There's a spring in Greystones which no longer appears on the surface. I don't know its entire course, but it passes under St Gabriel's Church, and used to feed a trough in the wall on Dobbin Hill, near the Greystones Rd end of the wall in front of the house on the corner. There's a grate there, usually blocked, but you can hear the water running below.

This sketch is from the Tatton Notebooks in the Local Studies library

attachicon.giftrough.jpg

There's also the brook at Nether Green which runs behind the Tesco services, and behind the buildings on Nether Green Rd to join the Porter just below the outfall of Ibbotson dam. I believe it's called the Crimicar Brook?

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The spring that you have got rising at 53^ 23' 20.58" N and 1^ 31' 1.61" W , is I think, the continuation of the old St. Anthony's Well spring which rises under several manholes on the public footpath that runs down from the junction of Bole Hill Lane / St, Anthony Road. It is culverted under the footpath and crosses the bottom bit of St. Anthony's Road and goes down to a point where it issues on an allotment below the houses. It seems to run well all throughout the year. It then sinks again in the gardens but lines up with the place you have indicated above.

St. Anthony's Well was located at 53^ 23' 10.53" N and 1^ 31' 51.49" W.

HD

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Re the culverted spring that passes under St Gabriel's Church, Greystones. The direction is spot on, but south-east of the actual line. There is an inspection cover for the culvert in the grounds of the church at 53 21'48.55N / 1 30 46.15W The position of the trough was at 53 21 49.97N / 1 30 43.52W

A straight line between these two points passes exactly below the church building, and is exactly parallel to the line you have passing below Greystones School.

Assuming this is the spring in question, it puts your blue line slightly over 216 ft southeast of the actual course.(Pretty good for an invisible stream!)

(All references and distances from Google Earth)

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I don't know why this should have stuck in my mind but:

Over 50 years ago, my grandma told me that when they moved into their brand new council house at Southey, they had to have remedial work done because, periodically, a spring would rise under their house. Southey I believe was built in 1920's.

Anecdotal only I'm afraid.

108, Southey Hall Road

53°25'12.04"N
1°28'16.09"W

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Bayleaf - I've had a closer look at the Greystones area. I've marked on the location of the culverted spring inspection cover and the trough - many thanks. The historic maps (1850s-1920s) show the trough there, but no spring or stream. They do show a well, however, which depending on the definition could certainly have been a shallow well fed from rising groundwater at the point you suggest.

What the maps (modern OS maps, 1:10k scale) clearly show are "issues" and "sinks" more or less on the back garden boundary lines between Dobbin Hill and Greystones Grange Road (http://goo.gl/maps/a6iNz), beginning adjacent to Greystones Drive, with a pond further down before the church (here: http://goo.gl/maps/YWNUh). These will likely be remnants of the stream here, which may perhaps only have been seasonally flowing, and even just boggy ground for much of the year. The garden boundaries are curved, reflecting this also. The historical maps clearly delineate a stream path along this route through what was once Dickey Wood. Another stream tributary came in from the west as shown in my "Lost Rivers" map. These were shown to then proceed to the Dobbin Hill street in the location I've marked, which doesn't quite tally with the position of the culverted spring in the church grounds. However, the historical maps weren't always correct, and there may have been substantial changes to the drainage here. It appeared as though the water could have drained down Dobbin Hill along the side of the street towards the trough as you indicated.

Or, the water associated with the church and trough may have sourced from elsewhere... Nearby, historic maps showed a definite spring between the gardens of Greystone Road and Greystone Crescent, precisely here by my mark: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=53.363963,-1.514864&hl=en&num=1&t=h&z=18. This matches other reports I've had of springs occasionally flowing down the road here. Knowing the area better than me, do you think this could have been the source of the water?

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No springs shown on the historic maps here, but it was certainly an approximate valley outline, and entirely plausible. I've added that location to the list of possible spring sources. Cheers!

I don't know why this should have stuck in my mind but:

Over 50 years ago, my grandma told me that when they moved into their brand new council house at Southey, they had to have remedial work done because, periodically, a spring would rise under their house. Southey I believe was built in 1920's.

Anecdotal only I'm afraid.

108, Southey Hall Road

53°25'12.04"N
1°28'16.09"W

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Thanks for the information about the culverted spring here. I agree it is part of the same system of the St Anthony's Well. The spring rising in the field here (http://goo.gl/maps/J1ZX2) on the field boundary flows well all year, as does the other just in the middle of the upper field, both flowing into troughs. They are joined in this area by flowing streams in the woods on the east side of that field.

The stream path I have to the west beginning in the allotments at the apex of St Anthony Road and Bolehill Lane certainly is correct, as I remember being attacked by dogs whilst sampling the water at the bottom of that gully. But if what you say is correct, then I can extend the stream route from those pictured springs up the hill along the track through the allotments and up to the old St Anthony Spring well between the houses of St Anthony Road and Bolehill Lane as a distinct entity from the routes to the immediate west and east.

Many thanks.

The spring that you have got rising at 53^ 23' 20.58" N and 1^ 31' 1.61" W , is I think, the continuation of the old St. Anthony's Well spring which rises under several manholes on the public footpath that runs down from the junction of Bole Hill Lane / St, Anthony Road. It is culverted under the footpath and crosses the bottom bit of St. Anthony's Road and goes down to a point where it issues on an allotment below the houses. It seems to run well all throughout the year. It then sinks again in the gardens but lines up with the place you have indicated above.

St. Anthony's Well was located at 53^ 23' 10.53" N and 1^ 31' 51.49" W.

HD

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Bayleaf - I've had a closer look at the Greystones area. I've marked on the location of the culverted spring inspection cover and the trough - many thanks. The historic maps (1850s-1920s) show the trough there, but no spring or stream. They do show a well, however, which depending on the definition could certainly have been a shallow well fed from rising groundwater at the point you suggest.

What the maps (modern OS maps, 1:10k scale) clearly show are "issues" and "sinks" more or less on the back garden boundary lines between Dobbin Hill and Greystones Grange Road (http://goo.gl/maps/a6iNz), beginning adjacent to Greystones Drive, with a pond further down before the church (here: http://goo.gl/maps/YWNUh). These will likely be remnants of the stream here, which may perhaps only have been seasonally flowing, and even just boggy ground for much of the year. The garden boundaries are curved, reflecting this also. The historical maps clearly delineate a stream path along this route through what was once Dickey Wood. Another stream tributary came in from the west as shown in my "Lost Rivers" map. These were shown to then proceed to the Dobbin Hill street in the location I've marked, which doesn't quite tally with the position of the culverted spring in the church grounds. However, the historical maps weren't always correct, and there may have been substantial changes to the drainage here. It appeared as though the water could have drained down Dobbin Hill along the side of the street towards the trough as you indicated.

Or, the water associated with the church and trough may have sourced from elsewhere... Nearby, historic maps showed a definite spring between the gardens of Greystone Road and Greystone Crescent, precisely here by my mark: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=53.363963,-1.514864&hl=en&num=1&t=h&z=18. This matches other reports I've had of springs occasionally flowing down the road here. Knowing the area better than me, do you think this could have been the source of the water?

I think it sounds very likely to be the source Andy. What I know of the spring under the church is that the original church was built in 1936. The attached hall predates it. The spring must have been culverted either before or during the building of the church. The church was demolished and replaced with the present building a few years ago. One of the problems with the former building was that it had a wooden-block floor, and water from the spring often seeped up into the foundations, with the result that the block floor would expand and become uneven, some blocks even 'popping out' completely. So when the present church was built a great deal of work went into renewing and improving the culverting under the new building.

Your description of the line of issues and sinks is interesting. If I read the map correctly wouldn't the inspection cover in the church grounds match this line?

It brings another thing to mind. At the other rear corner of the church there are some steps at the end of a footpath from Greystones Grange Road (steps at 53 21 49.32W 1 30 46.22W.) During the rain last summer and the last winter, these steps have several times become a waterfall of water running from a garden at the rear of a house on Greystones Road (53 21 49.55N 1 30 46.19W) I suspected it was ground water run-off, but it runs for rather a long time and is crystal clear. This source would be onor close to a continuation of the line you describe. In addition, the section of Greystones Road between Dobbin Hill and Greystones Grange Road is a veritable patchwork of repairs. These are a response to the frequent appearance of water flowing up through the road surface, which I always understood were a spring or springs. Again these would be on or close to the line you describe.

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