Unidentified Public Houses and Refreshment Rooms

[Ponytail]

t13154

Unidentified Group in an Unidentified Public House. 

Date Period: 1940-1959. 

 

[Ponytail]

t13154

Unidentified Group in an Unidentified Public House. 

Date Period: 1940-1959. 

Hoping the enlargement of the window area helps. 

 

[Ponytail]

s17376

Unidentified Group outside The Cutlers Arms public house, No. 74 Worksop Road

Notes: Attercliffe WWI A Gentleman's Club with a Bowling Green and the members used to play billiards etc. Situated on the former site of the Offices of Brown Bayley Steels Ltd., now the site of Don Valley Stadium. (now gone!) 

Yes the Pub is identified but it would be lovely to identify the group. Often Groups and Societies used the Public Houses extensive Premises as meeting rooms. 

[SteveHB]

2 hours ago, Ponytail said:

OK, you clever knowledgeable lot how about this one. 

u05117

Child playing outside unidentified licensed premises in the 1960's

Photographer, James Leslie Frederick Kellie. 

This is a personal favourite of mine. 

 

Enlarging this portion, I have my own thoughts what it says but welcome yours. Perhaps someone could do a better job than me to make it clearer? 

 

The keepers name over the door, is Welcome Gillatt

[Ponytail]

2 hours ago, SteveHB said:

The keepers name over the door, is Welcome Gillatt

Wonder if there's a connection. 

Link to:

Welcome Gillatt, rat catcher, 169 Woodside Lane. 

https://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/topic/7121-fine-name-not-sure-about-the-job/

 

A view of the abode of Welcome Gillatt. 

s20731

No. 163, corner shop, 165 and 181, Woodside Lane October 1957 demolished in 1959. 

Photographer:Kodak Medical Photography per Medical Officer of Health. 

Did he or his son move on to be a publican? 

 

[Edmund]

 

Welcome Samuel Gillatt, son of George (scissor forger) and Caroline, was born on 27th August 1867. His main career was as a file cutter, but he may have started catching rats to be worried by dogs. By 1901 Welcome and his wife Ada were at 165 Woodside Lane with 5 children, one of whom was Welcome junior aged 4.

His first newspaper advert appears to be in the Mexborough & Swinton Times of 3rd December 1897:   WELCOME GILLAT. Ratcatcher, open for engagements. Dealer in Ferrets. Ferrets lent on hire, ratting or rabitting. :- 25 Court, 2 house, Woodside Lane, Sheffield.

In December 1901 as well as his ratcatching services, he advertised "Ship rats for sale" - an unusual Christmas present, or for worrying by dogs?

In February 1919 Welcome was appointed "Official Ratcatcher to the City". This was the first time such an officer had been needed, but was due to the plague of rats which had grown during the war, mainly due to the increase in land under cultivation. Then as the winter weather arrived, they migrated to built up areas. Welcome had been catching rats for forty years, catching them alive with ferrets and a wire cage. Applications for his services had to be made through the Cleansing Department Superintendent. In March he caught 1,050 rats in four weeks, beating all previous records. Yorkshire County Council were granting 2d per rat killed to Sheffield City Council.

In October 1919, Welcome had a great success in catching a wily old rat that frequented the Cathedral neighbourhood. This rat was fancied to be 'a grand old man' with a long grey beard and a splendid voice despite his years. Supposedly the rat danced on the Cathedral tombstones, and was a politician, addressing mass meetings of his tribe in Paradise Square each night. Welcome set out to 'bag him' and after a successful and exciting hunt declared "Yes, he's a beauty - he weighs just over a pound and will be one of the biggest we have in England". Welcome was so successful in his work that a bag of 40 rats a day was now considered a good one. In the "good old days" a bag of 375 in a day was possible.

In August 1922 Welcome caught an outstanding specimen weighing 1 lb 5 oz at Mr Simmerson's house, 100 Nottingham Street. Mr Gillatt had netted the entrance to several holes when the rat was discovered in a fowlhouse. It jumped one of the nets and as it was making its escape Welcome grabbed it and captured it alive. He took it to the Telegraph offices to show it off, whereupon it attempted to snap at its captor. Welcome intended to have it stuffed, as "the finest specimen I have ever captured". He estimated that over his career he had killed tens of thousands in Sheffield alone, plus those in outlying districts.

In 1927 he tamed and trained a fox, with the intention of using it to catch rats.

In 1939, still the Corporation rat-catcher, he was living with Ada at Firshill Terrace. Welcome died in 1940.

Welcome junior joined the Royal Navy in June 1915 as an armourer and was discharged in November 1921. He married Elsie McKay, also of Woodside Lane, in November 1919 and they had two girls, Edna and Joyce. Welcome junior died, a 33 year old bus conductor, at Lodge Moor Hospital in February 1930.

Welcome senior's son Ernest, a fireman, married Frances Brayshaw in September 1927 and they named their son (born early in 1931) as Welcome. Welcome died in Sheffield in Oct/Nov/Dec 1996, and his wife Lilian Anita in 2018. Presumably this chap was the licensee on the photo of the unidentified licensed premises.

[Archaeo]

On 04/11/2023 at 21:14, Ponytail said:

Nags Head, Location Unknown. 

https://www.picturesheffield.com/frontend.php?keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;t13545&pos=4&action=zoom&id=108084

Probably not Sheffield. 

Bowshaw Inn, Dronfield:

https://www.sheffieldpub.co.uk/pubs/dronfield/bowshaw-inn

 

[Ponytail]

42 minutes ago, Archaeo said:

Bowshaw Inn, Dronfield:

https://www.sheffieldpub.co.uk/pubs/dronfield/bowshaw-inn

 

Toby Carvery

(also known as Bowshaw Inn, formerly Nags Head)

Sheffield Road
Dronfield
S18 2GA

Extensive refurbishment took place mid 2016. 

https://pubshistory.com/Derbyshire/Dronfield/NagsHeadHotelCoal.shtml

 

https://picturethepast.org.uk/image-library/image-details/poster/dcne000695/posterid/dcne000695.html

 

Very well done Archeo, thank you. 

 

[Lysanderix]

The cCutlers Arms photo seems to show a large group of the Order of Buffalos!

 

[Ponytail]

36 minutes ago, Lysanderix said:

The cCutlers Arms photo seems to show a large group of the Order of Buffalos!

 

Link to:

Royal Antediluvian order of Buffalos

Who are listed as meeting at The Cutlers Arms. 

707 Whittle. 

https://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/topic/11875-royal-antediluvian-order-of-buffaloes/

 

[Ponytail]

44 minutes ago, Lysanderix said:

The cCutlers Arms photo seems to show a large group of the Order of Buffalos!

 

44 minutes ago, Lysanderix said:

The cCutlers Arms photo seems to show a large group of the Order of Buffalos!

 

Link to:

Royal Antediluvian order of Buffalos

Who are listed as meeting at The Cutlers Arms. 

https://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/topic/11875-royal-antediluvian-order-of-buffaloes/

 

Thank you Lysanderix. 

[Archaeo]

On 04/11/2023 at 21:40, Ponytail said:

Unidentified Public House, Carlisle Street, after air raid. 12th December 1940. 

s01257

"Smiths" sign over the window. 

 

I have not got to the bottom of this one yet. It’s not the Locomotive or the Norfolk Arms.

It does appear to be connected with this photo though:

 https://www.picturesheffield.com/frontend.php?action=printdetails&keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;u00525&prevUrl=

Note the distinctive ionic scrolls to the door surrounds, and the remains of the frame of the left most window of u00525 looks identical to the right most window in s01257.

The Locomotive was 61, and the other photo shows nos.  69-75 Carlisle Street, which would make our photo nos. 63-67ish. 
 

John Smith had a “Miller’s Arms” on  Carlisle Street from 1914 which they sold to Sheffield Corporation in 1948 (source). Though this is listed elsewhere in this forum as at no. 51 (source).

My current best guess is:

[Ponytail]

8 hours ago, Archaeo said:

I have not got to the bottom of this one yet. It’s not the Locomotive or the Norfolk Arms.

It does appear to be connected with this photo though:

 https://www.picturesheffield.com/frontend.php?action=printdetails&keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;u00525&prevUrl=

Note the distinctive ionic scrolls to the door surrounds, and the remains of the frame of the left most window of u00525 looks identical to the right most window in s01257.

The Locomotive was 61, and the other photo shows nos.  69-75 Carlisle Street, which would make our photo nos. 63-67ish. 
 

John Smith had a “Miller’s Arms” on  Carlisle Street from 1914 which they sold to Sheffield Corporation in 1948 (source). Though this is listed elsewhere in this forum as at no. 51 (source).

My current best guess is:

 

According to Sheffield Public Houses by Michael Liversedge. 

Millers Arms was 65-67 Carlisle Street active 1860-1940. 

 

1939 William Beaumont was the last recorded Licensee of the Millers Arms.

Looking through the List of Civilians who died in WWII no one is recorded for Carlisle Street, they all must have been safe in their air raid shelters. 

[Archaeo]

On 09/11/2023 at 19:08, Lysanderix said:

Red Lion…….were there many, or indeed any, Bass houses in Sheffield? The, what appears to be artificial stonework, also looks “foreign”.

Hope & Anchor Brewery of Wadsley Bridge was ultimately acquired by Bass in 1967 (by a roundabout route source),  but the photo of this Red Lion Hotel looks to predate that.

The Brewery History website records Bass did have a few of their own pubs in Sheffield, but no Red Lions:  http://breweryhistory.com/wiki/index.php?title=List_of_Bass,_Ratcliff_%26_Gretton_Ltd_pubs#ELSEWHERE_IN_YORKSHIRE

I have never seen a pub with the kind of stonework shown here in Sheffield and I’m minded to agree it looks like it’s from elsewhere.

[Ponytail]

There seems to be some confusion between the Millers Arms and the Dusty Miller. 

u00526

No 125 Carlisle Street and Nos 127-131, Dusty Miller public house, Carlisle Street. Date Period: 1920-1939. 

Photographer: City Engineers. 

The photograph clearly showing it's name and the adjoining houses in a derelict state. 

If the Photograph taken by the City Engineers hadn't the details written on the front or the back of the photograph (all information with photographs were checked for accuracy) then Directories of the date would have been referred to, along with any other Local Studies sources ie. Photographs, Maps, Card Index, Newspaper Cuttings along with Michael Liversidges, Sheffield Public Houses for any photograph or additional information that may prove useful. 

I don't have access to Directories for the period to check the research unfortunately. 

Comparing the above photograph and the bomb damaged one Picture Sheffield s01257 I don't see how The Dusty Miller could be 69 Carlisle Street, but I will stand to be corrected. 

 

Sheffield History has this photograph u00526 linked with the listing:

Dusty Miller

69 Carlisle Street

Open 1862 Closed 1939 Span 77

Comments

Earlier

1838 Fred Store [ beer retailer only ]

1839 Fred Store

1930s photo from Picture Sheffield. 

(sorry couldn't replicate the last line with a direct link to the photo) 

The listing for the Millers Arms as follows:

Miller's Arms

51 Carlisle Street

Open 1862 Closed 1940 Span 78

Comments

Earlier

1871 Wilford Haywood (Beerhouse)

1937 James Russell Wharf [ beer retailer only]

1938 James Russell Wharf [ 65-7 Carlisle Street ]

1939 William Beaumont [ beer retailer only ]

Note the 1938 entry [65-7 Carlisle Street] 

Yes, Public Houses and Beer Houses whether named or not are confusing particularly when there is a profusion of them. 

[Ponytail]

To add further to the confusion Michael Liversedge has:

Dusty Miller 69 Carlisle Street & Millers Arms 65-67 Carlisle Street. I think it would be a good idea to recheck the photograph  u00526 and the Directories for the period. 

It certainly needs sorting.

 

[Archaeo]

Good unravelling Ponytail!

Based just on the photos I feel fairly confident that we are looking at the corner of Hallcar St and Carlisle St. The property at that corner had a shallower depth than other corner properties which is clear in the photos. The slightly up market houses to its right also matches a run of terraces (rather than back to backs) shown on historic maps. The doorways also match the projections shown on the 1890 OS Town Plan.

[Ponytail]

9 minutes ago, Archaeo said:

Good unravelling Ponytail!

Based just on the photos I feel fairly confident that we are looking at the corner of Hallcar St and Carlisle St. The property at that corner had a shallower depth than other corner properties which is clear in the photos. The slightly up market houses to its right also matches a run of terraces (rather than back to backs) shown on historic maps. The doorways also match the projections shown on the 1890 OS Town Plan.

Thank you, I left the research last night, confused and this morning tried to look objectively at the research without prejudicing, must admit it was hard going. 

Thanks for marking u00525, but did you mean u00526? 

[Archaeo]

For the Dusty Miller, the shadow on the road has to be the ridge line of the Cyclops Works placing it between Dorking St and Kirk St. 

The roofline is visible nicely in this 1948 aerial post-clearance (source) : 

My best guess (again using the 1890 Town Plan for detail) would be:

[Archaeo]

4 minutes ago, Ponytail said:

Thank you, I left the research last night, confused and this morning tried to look objectively at the research without prejudicing, must admit it was hard going. 

Thanks for marking u00525, but did you mean u00526? 

Nope, I think those two images overlap, so help with locating.

see above post for u00526 suggestion.

[Edmund]

Harry Turner was licensee at the Millers Arms 65 &67 Carlisle street in 1911 and 1912.

An advert was put in the Telegraph in July 1913 for "Day Girl wanted 15 or 16 - Miller's Arms, 65 Carlisle st.". When the Miller's Arms were up for auction in June 1921 the address was given as the corner of Hallcar street and Carlisle street.

In 1911 the Dusty Miller Hotel run by William Bromley was at number 131 Carlisle street with Thomas Henry of the Cyclops Arms at number 133.  In 1910 number 131 had been the Atlas Cafe and Dining Rooms, run by the wife of Isiah Frank Granger, whose Carbrook butcher business went bust in 1910. In  1921 William Wall was running the Dusty Miller, giving the address as 127-131 Carlisle street

[tozzin]

On 10/11/2023 at 08:44, Ponytail said:

OK, you clever knowledgeable lot how about this one. 

u05117

Child playing outside unidentified licensed premises in the 1960's

Photographer, James Leslie Frederick Kellie. 

This is a personal favourite of mine. 

 

Enlarging this portion, I have my own thoughts what it says but welcome yours. Perhaps someone could do a better job than me to make it clearer? 

 

Welcome ollate ?

[Ponytail]

3 hours ago, Edmund said:

Harry Turner was licensee at the Millers Arms 65 &67 Carlisle street in 1911 and 1912.

An advert was put in the Telegraph in July 1913 for "Day Girl wanted 15 or 16 - Miller's Arms, 65 Carlisle st.". When the Miller's Arms were up for auction in June 1921 the address was given as the corner of Hallcar street and Carlisle street.

In 1911 the Dusty Miller Hotel run by William Bromley was at number 131 Carlisle street with Thomas Henry of the Cyclops Arms at number 133.  In 1910 number 131 had been the Atlas Cafe and Dining Rooms, run by the wife of Isiah Frank Granger, whose Carbrook butcher business went bust in 1910. In  1921 William Wall was running the Dusty Miller, giving the address as 127-131 Carlisle street

Thank you Edmund, I shall go away and have a lay down in a darkened room.  If only I had access to your info it would have saved me a lot of head scratching. 

So are we safe to assume that our bombed building  is the Millers Arms No. 65-67 Carlisle Street on the corner with Hallcar Street? 

[Archaeo]

On 10/11/2023 at 08:52, Ponytail said:

Ref No:u01080

Unidentified Licensed Premises, possibly Crofts area.

Date period 1900-1919. 

Suggestions include Button Lane. Street name appears to end in T L possibly something Lane.

A search of the Picture Sheffield website will be needed for this one. I don't think we'll have anyone old enough to remember this one. 

https://www.picturesheffield.com

 

 

I think this may be a view along Hawley Lane, looking towards the junction with Silver Street Head. The very narrow width of the street, the step out in the building line at the corner, and the proximity and angle of the opposing properties on the street at the end all match. Another photo, u09582, appears to be standing at the end of the road looking along Silver Street Head where you see the corner of the building at the end of this photo.

This would place the photographer about here (on 1890 OS Town Plan):

 

[Archaeo]

1901 Census  (only heads named) - 

1 Hawley Lane - Mary Horan, Provision dealer

Back of 1 Hawley Lane - John W Horan, mining engineer 

3 Hawley Lane - Joe Adamson, Sheffield Water Co labourer

5 Hawley Lane Old Reindeer - Frederick Booth, Inn Keeper