Guest CarriKP Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 Does anyone know why the Wybourn estate is so named? I've tried searching on the net but so far have come up with no answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveH Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 Does anyone know why the Wybourn estate is so named? I've tried searching on the net but so far have come up with no answers. Welcome to Sheffield History CarriKP and thank you for an interesting question. About a year ago we did a topic on how streets on the Arbourthorne and Manor got some of their more unusual names (like Fairleigh) But, as far as I know no one has asked how the Wybourn got its name (I even have difficulty in spelling it consistently) Personally I don't know the answer to this one but our member Bayleaf is usually pretty good on this sort of thing and there is a book I believe on Sheffield street and place names. I am sure someone will have an answer for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 Someone did their history homework! In the Harrison Survey of the Manor of Sheffield in 1637, he refers to "Wy Broomwell,(which Ronksley who transcribed the survey thought was Wybournwell) and ye Hill Topp lying on ye west side of ye lands. Alsoe ye Plaunch lying on ye South Side of ye Mannor Railes. Also ye Cundit plaine, and Arbor Thorne Hirst lying next unto ye Lands of ye Mannor of Handsworth towards ye South East... " A bourne is a seasonal stream, e.g. a winterbourne is a stream that only flows in winter. The Wy may refer to willow trees, Wy being the Norse word for willow. So it was a stream or well where willow trees grew. A hirst was a wooded hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveH Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 Someone did their history homework! In the Harrison Survey of the Manor of Sheffield in 1637, he refers to "Wy Broomwell,(which Ronksley who transcribed the survey thought was Wybournwell) and ye Hill Topp lying on ye west side of ye lands. Alsoe ye Plaunch lying on ye South Side of ye Mannor Railes. Also ye Cundit plaine, and Arbor Thorne Hirst lying next unto ye Lands of ye Mannor of Handsworth towards ye South East... " A bourne is a seasonal stream, e.g. a winterbourne is a stream that only flows in winter. The Wy may refer to willow trees, Wy being the Norse word for willow. So it was a stream or well where willow trees grew. A hirst was a wooded hill. Thanks Bayleaf, I knew you would be the one with an answer to this question. If I was asked that question on "Who wants to be a millionaire" I would have phoned you as a friend! ..and how about that CarriKP? About an hour and a half or so from posting your question to getting an answer! can't be bad. If you have any more questions about Sheffield History, - just ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest plain talker Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 just goes to show what a fantastic wealth of knowledge there is to tap into on here! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest transit Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 just goes to show what a fantastic wealth of knowledge there is to tap into on here! :D ...if only you could find it like the early days PT !? - This site is now my least interest since "revamp"! HA HA ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CarriKP Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 Someone did their history homework! In the Harrison Survey of the Manor of Sheffield in 1637, he refers to "Wy Broomwell,(which Ronksley who transcribed the survey thought was Wybournwell) and ye Hill Topp lying on ye west side of ye lands. Alsoe ye Plaunch lying on ye South Side of ye Mannor Railes. Also ye Cundit plaine, and Arbor Thorne Hirst lying next unto ye Lands of ye Mannor of Handsworth towards ye South East... " A bourne is a seasonal stream, e.g. a winterbourne is a stream that only flows in winter. The Wy may refer to willow trees, Wy being the Norse word for willow. So it was a stream or well where willow trees grew. A hirst was a wooded hill. Thanks very much! That's really helpful and very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CarriKP Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 Thanks Bayleaf, I knew you would be the one with an answer to this question. If I was asked that question on "Who wants to be a millionaire" I would have phoned you as a friend! ..and how about that CarriKP? About an hour and a half or so from posting your question to getting an answer! can't be bad. If you have any more questions about Sheffield History, - just ask. Yes - impressive - and I will indeed know where to ask any more questions. The answer was quite thought-provoking really - how very different it all would have looked in the 17th century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 Someone did their history homework! In the Harrison Survey of the Manor of Sheffield in 1637, he refers to "Wy Broomwell,(which Ronksley who transcribed the survey thought was Wybournwell) and ye Hill Topp lying on ye west side of ye lands. Alsoe ye Plaunch lying on ye South Side of ye Mannor Railes. Also ye Cundit plaine, and Arbor Thorne Hirst lying next unto ye Lands of ye Mannor of Handsworth towards ye South East... " A bourne is a seasonal stream, e.g. a winterbourne is a stream that only flows in winter. The Wy may refer to willow trees, Wy being the Norse word for willow. So it was a stream or well where willow trees grew. A hirst was a wooded hill. The finest answer to a question I've seen in a long while. I would struggle to even find Wybourn. Quality work Bayleaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 Thank you gents, we aim to please,(as the firing squad said to Captain Blackadder) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CarriKP Posted September 6, 2010 Share Posted September 6, 2010 Thanks very much! That's really helpful and very interesting. Further to my reply above though, I tried to be independent here and find out what 'Plaunch' means - and also 'Cundit ' - again no success. I tried Samuel Johnson's dictionary but I only have the abbreviated version - and as you probably know it's a pretty idiosyncratic dictionary anyway Came up with a blank on the net except for a hint that 'cundit' might be 'conduit' .... So - again - I'd be very grateful for any enlightenment. Come to mention it I'm not sure about 'Railes' either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted September 6, 2010 Share Posted September 6, 2010 Further to my reply above though, I tried to be independent here and find out what 'Plaunch' means - and also 'Cundit ' - again no success. I tried Samuel Johnson's dictionary but I only have the abbreviated version - and as you probably know it's a pretty idiosyncratic dictionary anyway Came up with a blank on the net except for a hint that 'cundit' might be 'conduit' .... So - again - I'd be very grateful for any enlightenment. Come to mention it I'm not sure about 'Railes' either. Erm, good questions! I think the reference to Manor Railes must be that these places are within the deer park, and I assume the Railes are the fence or boundary surrounding it. I think you're probably right about Cundit. I can't for the life of me remember where but I'm sure I've seen a reference to a water supply from the Manor to the castle. Or am I having a senior moment? Can you help me out here Gramps? The Plaunch? I'll keep looking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveH Posted September 6, 2010 Share Posted September 6, 2010 Can you help me out here Gramps? Like I said, we have a "specialist expert" in just about every aspect of Sheffield History. Like I tell the kids at school when I am promoting working together as a team "Being clever is not always WHAT you know, but sometimes WHO you know" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveHB Posted September 6, 2010 Share Posted September 6, 2010 Plaunch or plaunch board is a plank of wood. link .. The construction of Gothic cathedrals: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vox Posted September 6, 2010 Share Posted September 6, 2010 The Plaunch? I'll keep looking! Is this somewhere near ?? Planche, plaunche, plaunch, seem to convey the idea of flat. Maybe an area of flat land. Origin: Diminutive of planch, flat plate, slab, from Middle English plaunche, plank, from Old French planche, from Late Latin planca, from feminine of Latin plancus, flat; see plāk-1 in Indo-European roots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveH Posted September 6, 2010 Share Posted September 6, 2010 I would struggle to even find Wybourn. Starting from Manor Top go down the hill through the Manor estate between City Road and Prince of Wales Road, go behind City Road cemetry and down through the Manor Park, beyond Manor Park, somewhere behind the old Hyde Park flats you are on the Wybourn. If you follow this route Richard you will need some sort of protection, - private bodyguard / police escort, that sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted September 6, 2010 Share Posted September 6, 2010 Erm, good questions! I think the reference to Manor Railes must be that these places are within the deer park, and I assume the Railes are the fence or boundary surrounding it. Wrong! The Railes was "a close of pasture and arable divided." [ There was a practise of splitting a piece of land into 2 parts. One part would be used for growing crops, and the other half for grazing animals. The following year they'd swap, and grow crops on the other half which was now well manured by the grazing stock, while the animals grazed on the former arable part. ] "In this close stands a keeper's lodge wherein James Wardlow dwelleth who hath ye same lodge without any land in regard of his office being one of the Park keepers." The close contains just over 48 acres, and is held by James Wardley and Elizabeth Skelton, Widdow at an annual rent of £10. James Wardley and James Wardlow must be one and the same. He has a lodge which comes with the job, but has to rent the land around it. So the Railes is the name of a piece of land, within the deer park but rented out for farming. But perhaps it gets its name from being on the edge of the park, near the fence? (I don't give up easily!) I can't believe the Lord of the Manor would want a piece of farmland in the middle of his park, more likely tucked away on the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted September 6, 2010 Share Posted September 6, 2010 Is this somewhere near ?? Planche, plaunche, plaunch, seem to convey the idea of flat. Maybe an area of flat land. Makes sense Vox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CarriKP Posted September 6, 2010 Share Posted September 6, 2010 Erm, good questions! I think the reference to Manor Railes must be that these places are within the deer park, and I assume the Railes are the fence or boundary surrounding it. I think you're probably right about Cundit. I can't for the life of me remember where but I'm sure I've seen a reference to a water supply from the Manor to the castle. Or am I having a senior moment? Can you help me out here Gramps? The Plaunch? I'll keep looking! Yes - that would make sense for Railes wouldn't it. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gramps Posted September 6, 2010 Share Posted September 6, 2010 Erm, good questions! I think the reference to Manor Railes must be that these places are within the deer park, and I assume the Railes are the fence or boundary surrounding it. I think you're probably right about Cundit. I can't for the life of me remember where but I'm sure I've seen a reference to a water supply from the Manor to the castle. Or am I having a senior moment? Can you help me out here Gramps? The Plaunch? I'll keep looking! Not much I'm afraid...there's a detailed plan of the 'Greate Parke' in Scurfield's article, - I think you have that ? There were two areas named 'Rayles' in the park, the one you dealt with down by the river (plot 22) and also the 'Manor Rayles' close to the lodge (plot 8). The area known as 'Ye Plaunch' (part of plot 10) is now largely covered by Norfolk park. Plot 10 was huge, - 961 acres and according to Harrison 'undivided' even though parts of it were separately named.... "Item Wy Broomewell & ye Hill Topp lying on ye West side of ye Lands, Alsoe ye Plaunch lying on ye West Side of ye Mannor Railes Alsoe ftaunsfeild lying on ye South Side of ye Mannor Railes Alsoe ye Cundit plaine, and Arbor Thorne Hurst Alsoe Blacko Plaine & Stone Hirst lying next unto ye Lands of ye Mannor of Handsworth towards ye South East, Alsoe ye Nunnery lying betweene ye Lands aforesaid towards ye West & diverse mens Lands towards ye North East all which aforesaid parcells lye together undivided" I believe areas reserved for deer were known as 'launds' from which we get 'The Lawns' on Rivelin Chase and possibly 'Deerlands' in Southey Soke. The area shown as 'Ye Lands' (plot 9) on Scurfield's plan may be a deer enclosure. BTW - the definition of 'bourne' you gave in an earlier post is interesting; where did you find that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 Not much I'm afraid...there's a detailed plan of the 'Greate Parke' in Scurfield's article, - I think you have that ? There were two areas named 'Rayles' in the park, the one you dealt with down by the river (plot 22) and also the 'Manor Rayles' close to the lodge (plot 8). The area known as 'Ye Plaunch' (part of plot 10) is now largely covered by Norfolk park. Plot 10 was huge, - 961 acres and according to Harrison 'undivided' even though parts of it were separately named.... "Item Wy Broomewell & ye Hill Topp lying on ye West side of ye Lands, Alsoe ye Plaunch lying on ye West Side of ye Mannor Railes Alsoe ftaunsfeild lying on ye South Side of ye Mannor Railes Alsoe ye Cundit plaine, and Arbor Thorne Hurst Alsoe Blacko Plaine & Stone Hirst lying next unto ye Lands of ye Mannor of Handsworth towards ye South East, Alsoe ye Nunnery lying betweene ye Lands aforesaid towards ye West & diverse mens Lands towards ye North East all which aforesaid parcells lye together undivided" I believe areas reserved for deer were known as 'launds' from which we get 'The Lawns' on Rivelin Chase and possibly 'Deerlands' in Southey Soke. The area shown as 'Ye Lands' (plot 9) on Scurfield's plan may be a deer enclosure. BTW - the definition of 'bourne' you gave in an earlier post is interesting; where did you find that ? Thanks Gramps. For some reason I missed the plan of the Greate Parke when I copied Scurfield! (Rectified it this morning!) Despite what I said the Mannor Rayles does seem to have been in the centre of the Greate Parke as it was formerly, though on Scurfield's plan most of the Parke has been sub-divided, so perhaps the idea holds? It appears to be adjacent to the area marked as Manor Lodge, so perhaps the 'Rayles' referred to the fence between the two? the other Rayles is almost on the edge near the Sheaf. As to the definition, I can't quote a source, but i know it comes from reading archaeology books, and I seem to recollect it being used in that sense particularly about areas such as Salisbury Plain, where streams are frequently seasonal. I suppose the root however is the same as 'burn', so has a wider meaning, not necessarily seasonal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CarriKP Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 Thanks Gramps. For some reason I missed the plan of the Greate Parke when I copied Scurfield! (Rectified it this morning!) Despite what I said the Mannor Rayles does seem to have been in the centre of the Greate Parke as it was formerly, though on Scurfield's plan most of the Parke has been sub-divided, so perhaps the idea holds? It appears to be adjacent to the area marked as Manor Lodge, so perhaps the 'Rayles' referred to the fence between the two? the other Rayles is almost on the edge near the Sheaf. As to the definition, I can't quote a source, but i know it comes from reading archaeology books, and I seem to recollect it being used in that sense particularly about areas such as Salisbury Plain, where streams are frequently seasonal. I suppose the root however is the same as 'burn', so has a wider meaning, not necessarily seasonal. Word origins are fascinating aren't they - I've just seen a definition from Princetown University that describes 'bourn' as an archaic name for a boundary. I've also just remembered that 'Bourne' cropped up quite a few times in Hampshire and Gloucestershire and frequently formed part of the name of a village - said villages often being close to streams and small rivers of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CarriKP Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 Starting from Manor Top go down the hill through the Manor estate between City Road and Prince of Wales Road, go behind City Road cemetry and down through the Manor Park, beyond Manor Park, somewhere behind the old Hyde Park flats you are on the Wybourn. If you follow this route Richard you will need some sort of protection, - private bodyguard / police escort, that sort of thing. Quickest way is to turn down Manor Lane from City Road and then you either turn right for Manor or left for Wybourn. I've lived there for ten years - and 'outsiders' keep telling me how rough it is B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 Word origins are fascinating aren't they - I've just seen a definition from Princetown University that describes 'bourn' as an archaic name for a boundary. I've also just remembered that 'Bourne' cropped up quite a few times in Hampshire and Gloucestershire and frequently formed part of the name of a village - said villages often being close to streams and small rivers of course. It's a fascinating subject in its own right isn't it. I wonder if the definition of bourn as a boundary comes from the fact that a stream was often used as a boundary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CarriKP Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 It's a fascinating subject in its own right isn't it. I wonder if the definition of bourn as a boundary comes from the fact that a stream was often used as a boundary? Could well be - yes - that thought did occur to me too. While trawling the net I discovered that place names are the focus of quite a bit of academic study - you probably knew that ! - also that there is an English Place Name Society which is based at Nottingham Uni http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~aezins//kepn.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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