Wayne Stones Whiteley Woods

[duckweed]

I would appreciate some help. I am trying to find where the land that Richard Blithe or Blythe of Norton owned. I have found these mentions of the Blythe family and Whiteley Wood. I know that the Blythes leased a number of Wheels in the area and wonder if they had a wheel here too on the Porter.

the feild called the lathe lying at Boutyhagge”, “messuage & certaine Lands in Whiteley Wood late the inheritance of Richard BLITHE”, “closes called Dickfeild, little Feild & in Ecclesall feild.Witnesses: Richard DAILE, William FOXE & John S.......

1558

Thomas Dale v Richard Blythe. Deeds in support of plaintiff’s title by purchase. A messuage and land in Whiteley Wood, Yorkshire, purchased by plaintiff of one Robert Mordicliffe. Short title: Dale v Blithe, Elisabeth 1 Thomas Dale v Richard Blythe. Deeds (National Archives)

“A boundary or breefe note of all the meres and boundes of Hallamshire betweene Whiteley wood and a place called the Waynestones: namely betweene the lordes landes of Ecclessall and Hathersedge. Gone over and viewed and seene the sixt day of August Anno Dei one thousand fyve hundreth and seaventy and fower, by these men whose names are here underwritten:

“Viz. Anthony BLYTHE of Birchett, gent., James TURNER, Bealife of Sheffeld, William DICKINSON, William UPTON, Thurstone KIRKE, William HARRISE, George SKARGELL, Adam GILL, Ralphe MORTON, Gregorie REVELL ...

Source: Hunter’s Hallamshire (pp. 18-19), first published in 1819

[vox]

Someone knows where it is.

It's mentioned in a modern folk song.

The song title seems to imply that it's the same Waynestones that you're looking for.

It was written about the mass trespass on Kinder in the 30's (I think.)

THE MANCHESTER RAMBLER (MacColl, Tams)

I've camped out on Crowden, Rambled on Snowdon

Slept by the Waynestones as well.

I've sunbathed on Kinder, been burnt to a cinder

And many's the tale I can tell.

Me rucksack has oft been my pillow

Heather has oft been my bed.

But, sooner than part from these mountains I love,

Well I think I would rather be dead.

VERSE 2

There's pleasure in dragging the peat bogs, and bragging,

Of all the the fine walks that you know.

There's even a measure of some kind of pleasure,

In wading through ten feet of snow.

Well I've seen the white hare on the heather,

The curlew fly high overhead.

But, sooner than part from these mountains I love,

Well, I think I would rather be dead.

CHORUS

Nothing changes, It all stays the same,

They're selling the moorland for profit and gain.

They've sold all the rivers, brought all the rain,

And you can't go up there there, you're disturbing the game....

Cods row, Caviar, Milk Stout and Champagne,

Gold cards and Dole cards, but, never the twain,

Thats the game, Thats their game..............

Nothing changes, It all stays the same.

VERSE 3

So, I'll go where I will over mountain and hill,

And I'll lie where the bracken lies deep.

I belong to these mountains, these clear crystal fountains,

Where the rocks they stand rugged and steep.

Well, I've stood on the edge of the downfall,

Seen all the valleys outspread.

No man has the right to own these mountains I love,

Anymore than the wide ocean bed....

Repeat CHORUS....

Copywright John Tams/Ewan McColl (Cop Con)

[Bayleaf]

There's no mention of Blithe/Blythe having any of the wheels on the Porter in the "Water Power on the Sheffield Rivers" which is pretty much the definitive work on the subject. None of the other names rings a bell in the area, unless Boutyhagge is Bell Hagg near Crosspool. The Wainstones I think are on the Derwent watershed? I'll have to do some digging.... Is Gramps around?

[vox]

Further perambulations of the boundary between Hallamshire and Hathersage in 1574 and 1656 also proceeded along Stanage and the Broad Rake to the Seven Stones, across the brook, and on to the 'Wayne Stones or Wheele Stones'. Coming the other way, a perambulation of the Hathersage boundary, also taken in 1656, went via Moscar Cross (at that time called Humble Stone Cross or Hambleton Cross) 'following the Top of the Hill to a place called Broadrake, and so following the Torr top to a place called Crow Chin'.

Broad Rake therefore appears to have been the name given to the broad path along the escarpment from Stanage End to Crow Chin. The dispute between Bradfield and Hathersage in 1724 was settled by an arbitrator, William Jessop of Broom Hall, who accepted the line followed by the Hathersage men, the same line as that of the present county boundary. On the map attached to the Enclosure Award of 1805 for the Manor of Sheffield our trench was marked as 'Ancient Ditch'. It formed the north-western boundary of the 'Black Moors' that lay within Stannington township in the chapelry of Bradfield. The manor of Hathersage lay immediately beyond. Just how ancient the ditch is we cannot say, but it has served as a boundary line for well over 400 hundred years and is possibly much older.

SOURCE

[vox]

Is this anything to do with it.

These are called the WHEEL STONES

Not exactly the WHEELE STONES (across the brook, and on to the 'Wayne Stones or Wheele Stones') but maybe just a modern corruption.

They're on Derwent Edge.

[Bayleaf]

Is this anything to do with it.

These are called the WHEEL STONES

Not exactly the WHEELE STONES (across the brook, and on to the 'Wayne Stones or Wheele Stones') but maybe just a modern corruption.

They're on Derwent Edge.

Yup, I'm sure they're the ones Vox.

[Guest Gramps]

There's no mention of Blithe/Blythe having any of the wheels on the Porter in the "Water Power on the Sheffield Rivers" which is pretty much the definitive work on the subject. None of the other names rings a bell in the area, unless Boutyhagge is Bell Hagg near Crosspool. The Wainstones I think are on the Derwent watershed? I'll have to do some digging.... Is Gramps around?

Can't help much with this. I found Broad Rake on the 1850s map but no mention of Wayne/Wheel Stones or Seven Stones along the boundary.

[Bayleaf]

Can I ask what the source of this piece is?

"messuage & certaine Lands in Whiteley Wood late the inheritance of Richard BLITHE", "closes called Dickfeild, little Feild & in Ecclesall feild.Witnesses: Richard DAILE, William FOXE & John S....... "

I've been working through the Harrison Survey of 1637, and I wondered whether " Ecclesall feild." could actually mean "in Ecclesfield"? Harrison has a Dickfield (several refs, p240-243) and a Dick Field tongue (p241 ref 117) that seem to be in the Ecclesfield/Parson Cross area, and the latter is adjacent to "the Lord's lands in the use of Peter Blyth". Harrison also appears to have a "little feild" in the same area. That said, there are 14 references to "little feild"s all over the Manor, but though there are six or seven references to Dick Field, they all refer to this same one, each person having a part of it. Peter Blyth's name crops up several times, but it may refer to the same land each time.

Not much luck with the manorial records either, but I did come across this;

"1549 Oct 29th, 3rd year of Edward VI

Thomas Osgathorpe son of Thomas Osgathorpe surrendered etc. all that his messuage lands and tenements etc. in Longlee in the soke of Southey, to the use of Thomas Blythe of Hymmesworth and John Blythe of Nortonlees and their heirs forever..."

Could this be the same Blythes? In June 1550 they acquired another property in Longlee from the same people, but in September 1550 passed them all on to a Thomas Wilkyson.

Going back to the Porter, if "the feild called the lathe lying at Boutyhagge" does mean Bell Hagg, (and it's a sizeable 'if' !), there is a 'little feild' in the same area in Harrison. (p119, ref 787)

Just random thoughts, may all be totally irrelevant....!

[duckweed]

The quotes are from various sources Wayne stones is from Manorial records A second is from National Archives online and the third an extract from a will of Thomas Daile of Whitely Wood. Thomas Blithe is thought to be a relative but not sure what relationship he is to Richard. The books I have read on Water wheels don't appear to have gone back that far, I was wondering if the land names might point to what the Blithes were doing there. There is documentary proof that Blithes ran wheels by Beauchief Abbey, New Mill, Little London, Heeley Mills, (a kinsman ran Norton Hammer, and their was their own on the Meersbrook known as Blythes wheel. They also had a wheel in Dronfield. They also ran a number of mines in Dronfield, Banby Dun and Barmby, and probably quite a number of founderies though I only know of one in Newfield Green and the one at Norton Hammer.

[duckweed]

Iin Hunters Hallamshire he mentions the boundary being walked as starting from Whiteley Wood passing by Ringing-Law and Stannedge and finishing their tour at the North-Wain-Stones.

So that would appear to clear that up. Any more ideas about the other names. The Blithes were mainly into mining iron lead and coal and processing the iron into steel to make scythes. They were the major manufacturers of scythes in the North up till the 1640s at least. Any land they bought or leased would have to have been connected with this industry.

[Bayleaf]

Iin Hunters Hallamshire he mentions the boundary being walked as starting from Whiteley Wood passing by Ringing-Law and Stannedge and finishing their tour at the North-Wain-Stones.

So that would appear to clear that up. Any more ideas about the other names. The Blithes were mainly into mining iron lead and coal and processing the iron into steel to make scythes. They were the major manufacturers of scythes in the North up till the 1640s at least. Any land they bought or leased would have to have been connected with this industry.

If any of our map fans want to work out the route, here's the itinerary.

Extract from a perambulation made in 1574

A Boundarie, or brief notes, of all the Meares and Bounds of Hallamshire between Whytley Wood and a place called Waynstones, namely between the Lord's lands pf Hallamshire and the Lords of Ecclesale and Hathersage, beeinge overviewed and seene the 6^th of August, Anno Dm 1574

1. Whitley Wood. First one Ewe Tree, standing upon my Lord's land called Bennet Field is thought to be a Meare between my Lord and the lord of Ecclesale, and so upwards to a place called Stawpstacke. This evidence given and shewed by one John Stonne of Whytley Wood, being of the age of three skore yeares and above, as he heard his elders to say the same.

2. Stawpstacke. Item from said Ewe Tree to a stone called Stawpstacke, which John Stone aforesaid took away, and thereof made a Pigge Trough, and he has promised to set it there again; for hee once before, about sixteen yeares agoe had taken it away, and one old Roger Barley, who was over the age of fower score yeares and above, did complaine upon him, and said he had not done well in takeing of it away, because it was a meere between my Lord and the Lord of Ecclesale, and the said John Stone upon Barnsley's (sic) complaint did bringe it there againe, and there it remained ten yeares, and at the ten yeares he took it again, but now hee hath or will sett it there againe as it ought to bee.

3. Ringinge Lawe. Item, from said stone called Stawpstacke to a great heape of stones called Ringinge Lawe from wch one Tho. Lee had taken and led away a great sort of stones lyinge by one Sicke or Brooke which parteth Darbyshire and Hallamshire.

4. Burbage Head. Item, the said Sicke or Ditch leading or goeing from Ringinge Lawe to a place called Burbage Head which is a Meere between my Lord of Hallamshire and the heirs of Padley and the lord of Hathersage.

5.Hurklinge Edge. Item, from the said Burbage Head to a certain place called Hurklinge Edge, being a mere between Hallamshire and the Lordship of Hathersage.

6. Stannedge. Item, from the said Hurklinge Edge as forwards after the Rocke to Stannage which is a mere between the said Lordshipps..

7. Broad Rake. Item, from Stannedge, after the said Rocke to a place called the Broad Rake, which is also a meere betweene the said Lordships of Hallamshire and Hathersedge.

8. Seaven Stones. Item, from the Broad Rake streight downward to a place where certain stones are sett upon the ends haveinge marks in them called Seaven Stones, which old and ancient men said that the same is a meere betweene my Lord and the Lord of Hathersedge.

9. Waynstones. Item, from the said Seaven Stones streight over the Brooke or Sicke there to a place called the Waynstones, being distant by estimacion three quarters of a myle.

10. North Waynstones. Item, from the said Waynstones streight over the Edge to a place, or certain stone, called the North Waynstones.

Bennett Field is the end of the ridge on which Hangram Lane Farm stands, overlooking Woodcliffe and the Porter Valley. A yew tree there would doubtless have been a prominent and long-lived landmark.

Stawpstacke, also called Stowperstacke, is the Bole Hill on the ridge between Ringinglow Road and Limb Valley, near Smeltings farm. It was part of Dore Moor, and formed part of the boundary between the Manors of Dore and Ecclesall.

The Sicke or Brooke dividing Derbyshire from Hallamshire is the Limb Brook. The pile of stones is believed to have been a large round barrow, which it seems stood next to the Brook, perhaps where the plantation now stands?

The Seaven Stones are the stone circle between Stanage Edge and Hordron Edge, below Broad Rake as the itinerary describes. They are known as the Seven Stones of Hordron (although there are in fact 9 standing and 1 Lying down!)

[Guest Gramps]

Didn't think to look at the Landranger map but there are 'Wheel Stones' shown to the north of Hordron Edge.

[Bayleaf]

Didn't think to look at the Landranger map but there are 'Wheel Stones' shown to the north of Hordron Edge.

Hi Gramps

From your map, does the order of the itinerary look odd, or are Hurklinge Edge and the Hurkling Stones two different places?

[Bayleaf]

Iin Hunters Hallamshire he mentions the boundary being walked as starting from Whiteley Wood passing by Ringing-Law and Stannedge and finishing their tour at the North-Wain-Stones.

So that would appear to clear that up. Any more ideas about the other names. The Blithes were mainly into mining iron lead and coal and processing the iron into steel to make scythes. They were the major manufacturers of scythes in the North up till the 1640s at least. Any land they bought or leased would have to have been connected with this industry.

I don't know how relevant it is, but scythe grinding was mostly on the Sheaf. As far as I know the wheels on the Porter were cutlers wheels, with a couple of corn mills on the May Brook.

[Guest Gramps]

Hi Gramps

From your map, does the order of the itinerary look odd, or are Hurklinge Edge and the Hurkling Stones two different places?

Can't fathom it....by Burbage Head I assume is meant the northwestern end of Burbage rocks - where the car park is. No mention of Hurklinge Edge on the modern map, but perhaps all that time ago part of Stannage Edge was known by that name ?

Broad Rake again not shown on a modern map but can be deduced from its relationship with Crow(s)Chin on that 1850 map I posted. It would lie mid way between Crow Chin and Stanage End on the modern map.

Odd that we now have Hurkling Stones so far from where Hurklinge Edge is mentioned in the itinerary

Some photos of Hurkling Edge here...

http://neiljacklin.com/cms/gallery/v/travelog/2010/2010-02/2010-02-14-01/?g2_page=6

But I always thought of the Hurkling Stones as being on Derwent Edge :blink:

[duckweed]

It doesn't make complete sense. Maybe Hunter got some names wrong or in wrong order. As regards Richard Blithes land, I know he was kin with the Revels and the Brights who had land there if that helps.

[Bayleaf]

It doesn't make complete sense. Maybe Hunter got some names wrong or in wrong order. As regards Richard Blithes land, I know he was kin with the Revels and the Brights who had land there if that helps.

My source isn't Hunter but we probably share the same source. This is fascinating, thanks for bringing it up Duckweed, the search goes on!....

[duckweed]

My source isn't Hunter but we probably share the same source. This is fascinating, thanks for bringing it up Duckweed, the search goes on!....

My other thought if not a wheel maybe a foundery? I have found 3 definite founderies , one at Norton Hammer, one in Norton, and one in Dronfield. Other reasons would be because of coal deposits, iron ore, or spring woods or charcoal woods. They were processing what amount to several tons of ore a year. When William Blythe died there was over 2 thousand scythes in the will inventory. He was supplying ore and coal to 10-12 scythe smithies Presumably also wood for the handles.

[Guest Gramps]

I'd say the only useful 'industrial' resource in the Whitley Wood area in the 16th. century would have been timber for charcoal. Coal may well have been mined but coal wasn't used in iron production until much later when it was discovered how to 'coke' it.

A John Blyth is recorded as leasing the 'New Mill' on the Sheaf from the monks of Beauchief in 1513 for 60 years. Not sure if water wheels were used for tilting or grinding as early as that and it may just have been used for grinding grain. This 'New Mill' seems to have become Norton Hammer in later years.

[duckweed]

I know the mill at Norton Hammer was used as a blast smelter adapted from a design from the Mendips in about 1554. Not sure when it became a hammer but think it could be pretty early because you couldn't get a good steel edge to a scythe without hammering. Before the water powered bellows and blast smelter there was a bloomery and the lease holder was permitted to take wood for the smithy. Although I know that it is said that charcoal was used till the discovery of coke, nevertheless the Blythes were certainly using coal in their smithies in the mid 17th century. I believe Dronfield coal has a low sulphur content which makes it better than other coals for this purpose. Certainly originally the Blythes were making charcoal as the land on which Bishops House was called Colliteland which Addy suggests was charcoal making land and the evidence is that there was quite a lot of woodland round Bishops House in earlier times. The Iron ore mined locally in Dronfield, Coal Aston, and Norton was a low grade ore that did not yield much iron without the use of coal. The Ore they got from the Doncaster side was a much richer ore but the coal there much higher in sulphur. Perhaps the Blythes were pioneers. The family had members who spent time in Flanders where great developments were happening in smellting and developing cast iron and steel.

[duckweed]

I've checked. Water powered hammers were used in roman times but as far as modern Europe was concerned were recorded in use in Austria in the 12th century. Certainly by the 14th century were in use in England. It would be impossible to mass produce scythes without this technology. We are talking about thousands a year after all.

[duckweed]

I've found that Dickfield is mentioned in Harrisons survey of Sheffield but no more than that. Bouthy Hagge remains a total mystery though Hagge is of couse the name for a wood.

Smelting with coal started in 1612 by a german,Sturtevant, Dudley a few years later also patented a method of coal smelting which involved the use of air blasts from bellows powered by a water wheels. This was already in place at Norton Hammer.

One of the biggest problems with coal was that the chemical reaction with high sulphur coals produced an often unworkeable ore. Samuel Smiles said the huge amount of timber needed to produce the charcoal to first extract the ore and then make into bar iron had resulted in whole forests disapearing and certainly this was true in Ecclesfield and Penistone where nailmaking flourished. The King brought in laws to protect the forests which for a while meant that many areas of iron working ceased due to lack of wood. So bearing that in mind how did the Blythes continue and mass produce so much steel?

[duckweed]

I've checked my sources. Stamping mills and tilt hammers were around very early in Sheffield History and there was indeed a scythe making wheel in Whiteley Woods called the Leather Mill because it used leather buckets. There is no date for it but my sources says many mills were built on the sites of old ones. Stands to reason that you would when you already have the Dam etc. made.

[Bayleaf]

I've found that Dickfield is mentioned in Harrisons survey of Sheffield but no more than that. Bouthy Hagge remains a total mystery though Hagge is of couse the name for a wood.

As I said in Post #8 above there is a Dickfield in Harrison's survey, but the detail would put it in the Ecclesfield area not Ecclesall, which is why I queried whether the 'Ecclesall feild' you mentioned could be a misprint or error for Ecclesfield..

Could I ask your source for scythe grinding at Leather Wheel please.? Of the wheels on the Porter, that and Wire Mill, the next wheel upstream, are the only ones actually in Whiteley Woods, so they are certainly the most likely candidates.

Please don't think asking your sources implies any doubt, it's just useful to know where information comes from.In this case there is no mention in the Water Power book of scythe grinding there, despite meticulous research, so you may have found a new source to add to the knowledge. Likewise according to other information the name 'Leather Wheel' probably arose from its use later in processing oak bark for use in the tanning process., so any pointers would be gratefully received!

[duckweed]

As I said in Post #8 above there is a Dickfield in Harrison's survey, but the detail would put it in the Ecclesfield area not Ecclesall, which is why I queried whether the 'Ecclesall feild' you mentioned could be a misprint or error for Ecclesfield..

Could I ask your source for scythe grinding at Leather Wheel please.? Of the wheels on the Porter, that and Wire Mill, the next wheel upstream, are the only ones actually in Whiteley Woods, so they are certainly the most likely candidates.

Please don't think asking your sources implies any doubt, it's just useful to know where information comes from.In this case there is no mention in the Water Power book of scythe grinding there, despite meticulous research, so you may have found a new source to add to the knowledge. Likewise according to other information the name 'Leather Wheel' probably arose from its use later in processing oak bark for use in the tanning process., so any pointers would be gratefully received!

Main source for Water wheel is Where t' watter runs o'er t' weir by Roy Davey. Also note that dickfield would appear to be near Ecclesall woods. The Brights direct kin to the Blythes owned Whitely Hall in Whitely Wood and the original wheel at Abbeydale Hamlet. Seems to be a lot of family activity in that area.