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Hjdary

Old trams...could they still run??

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Hjdary

Went into town today on the tram and had a daft thought.

Could an old tram from Sheffields original system run on the modern super tram system??

Is the track gauge the same?

Do the motors run on the same voltage??

I know the over head is different and the old tram would need a pantograph fitting.... and I know the on board signalling stuff would be missing but how cool would it be if 510 ran up City road again!!

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Guest Jeremy

Sorry to post this image so small, but it's a postcard and I don't own the copyright. The caption reads:

"The old and the new line up to mark the completion of Sheffield's state of the art light rail transport system, Supertram. The oldest surviving Sheffield tram, a horse-drawn vehicle c.1874 from the National Tramway Museum at Crich is photographed beside its modern counterpart Supertram on Church Street, Sheffield"

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madannie77

Went into town today on the tram and had a daft thought.

Could an old tram from Sheffields original system run on the modern super tram system??

Is the track gauge the same?

Do the motors run on the same voltage??

I know the over head is different and the old tram would need a pantograph fitting.... and I know the on board signalling stuff would be missing but how cool would it be if 510 ran up City road again!!

As far as I can tell there is no reason why - the voltage is the same (around 750V DC and the gauge is the same). As you say, it would require a pantograph and the signalling systems are probably different.

After the massive renewal in Blackpool finishes in 2012 the basic service from Starr Gate to Fleetwood will be operated by modern vehicles similar to the Supertrams, but the vintage trams will remain to operate on the Promenade during summer and the illuminations period. If Blackpool can do it, why can't Sheffield.

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vox

You can bet the Health and Safety people would find some reason to kibosh that idea.

Steep stairs, open doors, who knows what else.

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Stuart0742

As far as I can tell there is no reason why - the voltage is the same (around 750V DC and the gauge is the same). As you say, it would require a pantograph and the signalling systems are probably different.

After the massive renewal in Blackpool finishes in 2012 the basic service from Starr Gate to Fleetwood will be operated by modern vehicles similar to the Supertrams, but the vintage trams will remain to operate on the Promenade during summer and the illuminations period. If Blackpool can do it, why can't Sheffield.

What about the height of the overhead wires are they the same?

If I remember correctly the single deck trams in Blackpool have quite tall "towers" to raise the pole/pantagraph

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Hjdary

I'd thought of that one too... in some places the height of the overhead is quite low....(on the way up to City Road from the Silver Blades).

Are there any of the single deck cars left?

I know this has been mentioned on here before, but if anyone knows the answer to this...... All the images of old Sheffield trams have one of these boards in the window....

What were they for??

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Guest bus man

I'd thought of that one too... in some places the height of the overhead is quite low....(on the way up to City Road from the Silver Blades).

Are there any of the single deck cars left?

I know this has been mentioned on here before, but if anyone knows the answer to this...... All the images of old Sheffield trams have one of these boards in the window....

What were they for??

They are the duty board for the tram , the number refers to the tram duty number , on the reverse it tells the driver (and other staff ) when the tram leaves the depot where it goes and what time it is due at terminus and passing points it also tells you the time it returns tot he depot.

Boards were generaly split into four Mon - Fri , Sat , Sun & mis ie engineer the snow ploughs had a set of boards just for them

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Hjdary

They are the duty board for the tram , the number refers to the tram duty number , on the reverse it tells the driver (and other staff ) when the tram leaves the depot where it goes and what time it is due at terminus and passing points it also tells you the time it returns tot he depot.

Boards were generaly split into four Mon - Fri , Sat , Sun & mis ie engineer the snow ploughs had a set of boards just for them

I've been wondering about that for years!!

I even emailed Crich once but got no reply. Thanks. J

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Guest bus man

I've been wondering about that for years!!

I even emailed Crich once but got no reply. Thanks. J

That disapoints me , some of the boards still exist Ill see if I can get acopy

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madannie77

You can bet the Health and Safety people would find some reason to kibosh that idea.

Steep stairs, open doors, who knows what else.

They seemingly have no objection to double decker trams (with doors) with steep staircases running in Blackpool. The health & safety people would probably say running in Blackpool is still permitted because they have always run (what is known as grandfather rights). If doors was an issue, 510 and 513 both have platform doors, all other extant Sheffield trams do not.

What about the height of the overhead wires are they the same?

If I remember correctly the single deck trams in Blackpool have quite tall "towers" to raise the pole/pantagraph

The modern Sheffield trams are (nominally) 3.645 metres from track to top (excluding pantograph). This equates (if my maths is correct) to a fraction under 12 feet. The overhead has to be considerably higher than that to ensure clearance by high vehicles. Of the real Sheffield trams still in existence, the Roberts cars 510 and 513 are nominally 15 ft 9 ins in height and 189 and 264 at Crich are 16ft 2 1/2 ins in height. Adding a pantograph might make the overall height too much, but I cannot find any information about the modern overhead height.

Crich has a single deck Sheffield tram, no 46, which is nominally 10 ft 1 3/4 ins in height, so would fit under the wires fine (but with one of those Blackpool type pantograph towers)

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DaveH

They seemingly have no objection to double decker trams (with doors) with steep staircases running in Blackpool. The health & safety people would probably say running in Blackpool is still permitted because they have always run (what is known as grandfather rights). If doors was an issue, 510 and 5133 both have platform doors, all other extabnt Sheffield trams do not.

More importantly, Blackpool trams have always run and their safety record is excellent apart from running a bloke over who was chasing Rita Fairclough on Coronation Street lol

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Hjdary

Just think...next year, in October, it will be fifty year since the first system closed......time for a petition to Stagecoach me thinks!!

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pgmetcalf

What about the height of the overhead wires are they the same?

If I remember correctly the single deck trams in Blackpool have quite tall "towers" to raise the pole/pantagraph

I understood that the knitting was a UK standard height, something like 5.75m?

I'd like to see double-decker trams as they take up less space on the road and go around corners easier

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Stuart0742

I understood that the knitting was a UK standard height, something like 5.75m?

....

Is that the same for modern networks and the older generation networks

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madannie77

Is that the same for modern networks and the older generation networks

According to the Highway Code the tramway overhead must be at least 5.8 metres (19 feet) above road level, but can be lower than this if agreed by the appropriate authorities and clearly indicated.

As far as I can ascertain, for the first generation tramways the regulation height for overhead was 20 feet, again with exceptions when agreed with the authorities.

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Guest transit

Just think...next year, in October, it will be fifty year since the first system closed......time for a petition to Stagecoach me thinks!!

....would be a nice gesture from Stagecoach , for a Supertram to be painted in retro Sheffield Transport livery as a 50th celebration which could run all year ???? ;-)

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andyrad

More importantly, Blackpool trams have always run and their safety record is excellent apart from running a bloke over who was chasing Rita Fairclough on Coronation Street lol

You beat me to it there! do you know which tram it was tho??

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DaveH

You beat me to it there! do you know which tram it was tho??

I can't even remember who the bloke was chasing after Rita Fairclough!

I think the bloke was Alan Bradley, - not sure though :unsure:

Even less sure about the tram, Bispham? Cleveley? perhaps ????

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andyrad

I can't even remember who the bloke was chasing after Rita Fairclough!

I think the bloke was Alan Bradley, - not sure though :unsure:

Even less sure about the tram, Bispham? Cleveley? perhaps ????

yes Alan Bradley was the guy and the Tram was fleet number 710 if i remember correct, how sad am i remembering that?!

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DaveH

yes Alan Bradley was the guy and the Tram was fleet number 710 if i remember correct, how sad am i remembering that?!

So where was its destination then?

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andyrad

So where was its destination then?

cant remember that but, not sure you could see the detination tho?

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andyrad

cant remember that but, not sure you could see the detination tho?

Bispham!

Click here for evidence!

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DaveH

Looks like I made some lucky guesses in an earlier post then as I wasn't sure of either Alan Bradley or Bispham and I got them both with my first guess.

Its lucky guesses like that which frequently get me and Stuart0742 through to the tie break in a boozer quiz ;-)

...and then the luck usually runs out :(

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andyrad

Looks like I made some lucky guesses in an earlier post then as I wasn't sure of either Alan Bradley or Bispham and I got them both with my first guess.

Its lucky guesses like that which frequently get me and Stuart0742 through to the tie break in a boozer quiz ;-)

...and then the luck usually runs out :(

lol! it always does eventually

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DaveH

lol! it always does eventually

With all this about current Blackpool trams, the design of which goes back to the 1930's,

allow me to turn the original question around to answer it in a different sort of way.

Instead of

"Could Sheffield's old trams still run on the modern Supertram network?"

how about answering the question

"Could Blackpool's excellent old tram network run a modern Supertram without modification?"

As if we can answer either of these questions then the answer to the other one must logically be the same

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