Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
madannie77

Comparative Trials 1978

Recommended Posts

madannie77
bus man said:
...remember STD only bought the REs because of the railway involvement. Bristol products could only be bought by nationalasied industries

With regard to the unions remember rotherham didnt have any buses for a few days because the canteen stopped serving chips !

STD ordered Bristol REs, but the order was changed to VRTs. Although STD could have bought Bristol buses due to the involvement of the railways in the Joiint Committee they never did. They did, however, buy five Leyland Titans in 1957 and three Leyland Leopards in 1961 which had ECW bodywork, when ECW bodies were similarly restricted. The rule regarding Bristol buses only being available to nationalised operators was ended in 1965, so they were available on the open market when STD ordered them.

I seem to think that although the unions in Sheffield refused to allow the Ailsas to be operated as one-man buses (except 430 during the comparative trials) but in Doncaster they were operated in this way.

Going on strike due to a lack of chips seems quite reasonable hehe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest transit

A few more notes and observations.

I don't think Ailsa 430 ever operated in any livery other then standard SYPTE livery.

I have transposed the fleetnumbers of the two electric buses: 1000 was CWO 516K and 1001 was CWO 600K. Still haven't found out what happened to them after they left SYPTE.

The other two electric buses were only on loan for about three months in 1976 and 1977, so never received SYPTE livery.

Littlemalc was right about the Leyland National battery bus. It was Crosville fleetnumber XEB 461, and carried it's batteries on a trailer, as shown here (second picture on this page).

http://www.crosville-ec.org.uk/photos.asp?p=13

It appeared in Sheffield for the Electric Vehicle conference on 23rd and 24th May 1978, and failed with flat batteries on the first day! The GMPTE Seddon-Chloride Silentrider and 1000 were also used at this conference.

....another Leyland National Battery bus .....OFT461M ....AND TRAILER !!! :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
madannie77

....another Leyland National Battery bus .....OFT461M ....AND TRAILER !!! :o

Great photos. I Think it is the same vehicle as the Crosville one. According to Bus Lists on the Web it's registration was OTF354M and it was originally Ribble 461. This is the same registration and fleetnumber (albeit with Crosville's lettered prefix added). I can find no mention of OFT461M.

In your picture the bus appears to be on the Runcorn Busway, the presence of the Crosville bus perhaps adding to this impression. Perhaps this photo was taken after the bus had been transferred to Crosville but had not been repainted. Wandering a bit off topic again. Sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest transit

Hi `transit`Have you got a photo of this bus in its demonstrator colours ?

...I am sure 430 was always in SY colours . Are you thinking of the infamous Van Hool bodied Atlantean 431, which was on show at the Motor Show back in '76 (pic 1) before arriving and put into service (pic 2) ?....wonder what became of it?

Before SY's order was placed , i remember seeing a dull orange Van Hool bodied Atlantean demonstrater on loan from CIE ? in Ireland around '75 ???(i have a pic somewhere !)..........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest transit

Great photos. I Think it is the same vehicle as the Crosville one. According to Bus Lists on the Web it's registration was OTF354M and it was originally Ribble 461. This is the same registration and fleetnumber (albeit with Crosville's lettered prefix added). I can find no mention of OFT461M.

In your picture the bus appears to be on the Runcorn Busway, the presence of the Crosville bus perhaps adding to this impression. Perhaps this photo was taken after the bus had been transferred to Crosville but had not been repainted. Wandering a bit off topic again. Sorry.

........oooppss sorry - got the reggy plate to match the fleet number !!!!( as you could with Sheff Trans !!!!) ...heres a frontal pic of it ..... lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
madannie77

...I am sure 430 was always in SY colours . Are you thinking of the infamous Van Hool bodied Atlantean 431, which was on show at the Motor Show back in '76 (pic 1) before arriving and put into service (pic 2) ?....wonder what became of it?

Before SY's order was placed , i remember seeing a dull orange Van Hool bodied Atlantean demonstrater on loan from CIE ? in Ireland around '75 ???(i have a pic somewhere !)..........

431 was withdrawn by South Yorkshire in late 1986, but I haven't yet found out what happened to it afterwards, except it was sold to a dealer - no idea if it was a dealer in second-hand buses or a scrap dealer.

To reply to my own question on the Olympians: 501 gained the Sheaf Motors advert in spring 1986, and both buses were sold to Chesterfield in Summer 1987. 501 was still in the Sheaf Motors advert, and entered service in Chesterfield in that livery!

To introduce another odd bus from the seventies, does anyone remember the orange and white Dennis test-bed, an ex Leeds Daimler apparently being used to test the Voith transmission to be used in the Dominator. I remember it operating in Sheffield, usually on the 75 and 76. It stood out on account of it's colour and by the time it arrived there were virtually no rear entrance buses left in Sheffield.

The only picture i can find online is this one:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2581224741/

Regarding the Irish demonstrator, it was CIE D621 (621 ZO), a Van Hool bodied Atlantean, the body style being remarkably box-like and lacking the large front windows of the Ailsas. A picture of it in Doncaster can be found here, on John Law's Fotopic website:

http://themunicipals.fotopic.net/p39329576.html

This site also has a picture of the Seddon-Lucas electric minibus, also in Doncaster

http://themunicipals.fotopic.net/p39329582.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest transit

431 was withdrawn by South Yorkshire in late 1986, but I haven't yet found out what happened to it afterwards, except it was sold to a dealer - no idea if it was a dealer in second-hand buses or a scrap dealer.

To reply to my own question on the Olympians: 501 gained the Sheaf Motors advert in spring 1986, and both buses were sold to Chesterfield in Summer 1987. 501 was still in the Sheaf Motors advert, and entered service in Chesterfield in that livery!

To introduce another odd bus from the seventies, does anyone remember the orange and white Dennis test-bed, an ex Leeds Daimler apparently being used to test the Voith transmission to be used in the Dominator. I remember it operating in Sheffield, usually on the 75 and 76. It stood out on account of it's colour and by the time it arrived there were virtually no rear entrance buses left in Sheffield.

The only picture i can find online is this one:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2581224741/

Regarding the Irish demonstrator, it was CIE D621 (621 ZO), a Van Hool bodied Atlantean, the body style being remarkably box-like and lacking the large front windows of the Ailsas. A picture of it in Doncaster can be found here, on John Law's Fotopic website:

http://themunicipals.fotopic.net/p39329576.html

This site also has a picture of the Seddon-Lucas electric minibus, also in Doncaster

http://themunicipals.fotopic.net/p39329582.html

....a pic here of the Irish batch showing nearside style which does look rather boxy in 1974/5 , but when the "newer" front end styling and windows was introduced a year later , you can see the similarities with the Ailsa's ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest transit

....a pic here of the Irish batch showing nearside style which does look rather boxy in 1974/5 , but when the "newer" front end styling and windows was introduced a year later , you can see the similarities with the Ailsa's ?

.......obviously the PTE did !!!! ... and so glad they could see the modern improvement on the Van Hool design !!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Waterside Echo

...I am sure 430 was always in SY colours . Are you thinking of the infamous Van Hool bodied Atlantean 431, which was on show at the Motor Show back in '76 (pic 1) before arriving and put into service (pic 2) ?....wonder what became of it?

Before SY's order was placed , i remember seeing a dull orange Van Hool bodied Atlantean demonstrater on loan from CIE ? in Ireland around '75 ???(i have a pic somewhere !)..........

Hi transit. Do you know how many Mk 2 Ailsa`s there were ? The one we had for a very short while at Herries was very similar to 430 but not in SYPTE livery [seem to think it was an allover white] We one man operated it on route 79 Parson Cross, I remember the very high driving position and the brakes not matching the engine`s performance overshooting the bottom of Donovan Road at its junction with Wordsworth Avenue. A big improvement on the Mk 1 though. Its a shame, but If I am wrong this time I think I will call it a day! `Echo`s of, Oh Ye of little faith`. Oh and just as a favour, have you a photo of one of the Crossley`s I took my PSV test in around March 1965. Regards, W/E.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest transit

Hi transit. Do you know how many Mk 2 Ailsa`s there were ? The one we had for a very short while at Herries was very similar to 430 but not in SYPTE livery [seem to think it was an allover white] We one man operated it on route 79 Parson Cross, I remember the very high driving position and the brakes not matching the engine`s performance overshooting the bottom of Donovan Road at its junction with Wordsworth Avenue. A big improvement on the Mk 1 though. Its a shame, but If I am wrong this time I think I will call it a day! `Echo`s of, Oh Ye of little faith`. Oh and just as a favour, have you a photo of one of the Crossley`s I took my PSV test in around March 1965. Regards, W/E.

.....sadly no Crossley driver trainers yet - but will keep looking !!! - heres some other stuff from around that time.........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
madannie77

.....sadly no Crossley driver trainers yet - but will keep looking !!! - heres some other stuff from around that time.........

Hi Transit,

Do you have bigger scans of these photos, or can you read the registrations/fleet numbers at all. I think the middle two photos show Crossley buses. The one on the left has a classic Crossley body design and looks like it might be one of the batch 573-580 (KWA 773-780) from what I can read of the registration. On the right hand photo, I think two of the buses are Crossleys. On the left is (I think) 599 (LWB 299) and the bus in the middle looks like one of the 573-580 batch again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest littlemalc

Oh! what memories the driving school pics bring back, I took my test in one of those Leylands, god! they were cold in winter, and if you were the first to drive one on a cold winters day, the oil in the gearbox was so stiff it felt as though the gear lever was set in concrete.

The chief driving school inspector in those days was Charlie Deemer, he was highly ecentric, one of his ideas of teaching gentle braking techniques, was climbing into the cab with you, getting the unfortunate learner to sit on the switch box while he took the drivers seat, then leaning forward with his head under the window level to prod the brake pedal with his fingers, this was to show us that very little effort was required to stop if you had already aproached the stop at a correct speed! The steering wheel meantime, was doing its own thing.

The other all abiding memory while in the school was a visit from the union man, who introduced himself as Mr Cox, in those days, the job was conditional on being in the union, no union, no job! He took a delight in telling us all what a great union it was, and how we all would benifit from membership, oh! happy days!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Waterside Echo
The preserved Bristol VR is indeed 271, seen here in it's preserved state. Unfortunately the Vrs had all gone form Sheffield before I started photographing buses.
Hi madannie. Would it have been the early 80s that you started photographing Sheffield buses ? It has just dawned on me that there used to be this young bird with a camera, she would jump out in front of buses in various parts of Sheffield and give us the shock of our lives. The lady in question was the topic of conversation in the canteen many a time and we often used to wonder if she was in training as a war correspondent or just had a death wish. Anyway whatever, if it was you I am glad you survived, your knowledge of passenger transport and the quality of your photos show it was all worthwhile. Regards, W/E.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest transit

Oh! what memories the driving school pics bring back, I took my test in one of those Leylands, god! they were cold in winter, and if you were the first to drive one on a cold winters day, the oil in the gearbox was so stiff it felt as though the gear lever was set in concrete.

The chief driving school inspector in those days was Charlie Deemer, he was highly ecentric, one of his ideas of teaching gentle braking techniques, was climbing into the cab with you, getting the unfortunate learner to sit on the switch box while he took the drivers seat, then leaning forward with his head under the window level to prod the brake pedal with his fingers, this was to show us that very little effort was required to stop if you had already aproached the stop at a correct speed! The steering wheel meantime, was doing its own thing.

The other all abiding memory while in the school was a visit from the union man, who introduced himself as Mr Cox, in those days, the job was conditional on being in the union, no union, no job! He took a delight in telling us all what a great union it was, and how we all would benifit from membership, oh! happy days!!!

....a colour view of Leyland KWA 552 .........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Waterside Echo

A few more notes and observations.

I don't think Ailsa 430 ever operated in any livery other then standard SYPTE livery.

Does 430 [M11] hold the record for having the most different liveries than any other SYT vehicle ?.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest bus man

To the best of my knowledge 430 only operated in passanger service in PTE brown and cream, think the record for the most liveries must go to 1357 (Now preserved at Sandtoft) when it was taken into to Rutland Road paint shop and was used as a test bed for a new livery it went through various colours it ended up white with red but was repainted into pte brown and cream and went in the driving school

Colours used during the trials included blue - various , red, white, yellow, black , cream - various

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
madannie77

I have just come by a larger copy of the photo of the bus in reversed training bus livery in post #35. It is registered KWB96, which makes it a Crossley DD42/3. Is this one of those buses you learned to drive on, Waterside Echo?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
oldrowley

I have just come by a larger copy of the photo of the bus in reversed training bus livery in post #35. It is registered KWB96, which makes it a Crossley DD42/3. Is this one of those buses you learned to drive on, Waterside Echo?

...............and here's KWB 96 when dressed in the appalling green experimental livery

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Waterside Echo

I have just come by a larger copy of the photo of the bus in reversed training bus livery in post #35. It is registered KWB96, which makes it a Crossley DD42/3. Is this one of those buses you learned to drive on, Waterside Echo?

I do not have any dates of when driver training vehicles were withdrawn, but I took the test for my PSV licence in a Crossley around March/April time in 1965, so KWB 96 could have been the one,. However, I did not start my employment with STD until May of that year and by then most of the training buses were Leylands, so I never got to drive a Crossley again. Looking back it seems strange that I had taken my test without any previous instruction whilst working for someone else, then when on the payroll a few weeks later having to spend a couple of weeks in driving school. Happy days though ! W/E.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest bus man

I do not have any dates of when driver training vehicles were withdrawn, but I took the test for my PSV licence in a Crossley around March/April time in 1965, so KWB 96 could have been the one,. However, I did not start my employment with STD until May of that year and by then most of the training buses were Leylands, so I never got to drive a Crossley again. Looking back it seems strange that I had taken my test without any previous instruction whilst working for someone else, then when on the payroll a few weeks later having to spend a couple of weeks in driving school. Happy days though ! W/E.

Initial investigations sugest that the crossley were withdrawn in 1967 from the driving school , however it must be stressed that this is an innitial assesement - I will be back when we have a definate answer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest bus man

Just had a re read of this thread some updates

431 was sold to a scrap dealer at Barnsley it is listed as

ROLLINGSON CARLTON

however there it is also listed as PORTON & ALLEN CARLTON, Iam not familiar with that dealer but buses did often go from one dealer to another , often they were sold to dealer who was full so the bus would go to another dealer .

431 is listed as been on loan to Cleveland Transport for a time when it was with the PTE

430 is listed as going to PVS Carlton for scrap

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest gareth388

Just had a re read of this thread some updates

431 was sold to a scrap dealer at Barnsley it is listed as

ROLLINGSON CARLTON

however there it is also listed as PORTON & ALLEN CARLTON, Iam not familiar with that dealer but buses did often go from one dealer to another , often they were sold to dealer who was full so the bus would go to another dealer .

431 is listed as been on loan to Cleveland Transport for a time when it was with the PTE

430 is listed as going to PVS Carlton for scrap

Thanks Busman,

431 ended its days in Doncaster, running from Dunscroft, before it was withdrawn and sent for scrap.

Here is a photo of 430, just after it arrived at PVS. http://gareth.fotopic.net/p50079038.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
andyrad

Thanks Busman,

431 ended its days in Doncaster, running from Dunscroft, before it was withdrawn and sent for scrap.

Here is a photo of 430, just after it arrived at PVS. http://gareth.fotopic.net/p50079038.html

and another shot at Tinsley.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Peter Hall

Does anyone have any memories & photographs of the comparative bus trials in 1978.

Although the 51 was one of my local bus routes I can remember very little about the trials, except that the Dennis Dominator 521 was in blue and cream livery and 430 was the only one man operated Ailsa in Sheffield.

The outcome was, of course, Dennis Domiinators and MCW Metrobuses being bought by the PTE.

very late edit: 521 was not in blue and cream, but standard SYT livery. 522 was the Dominator in blue and cream!

New to this group and thus seeing some of these threads for the first time. I have also recently dug out my notes from the SYPTE operating era (1974-1986) and thus may be able to help further with this query. Thus, from my notes mainly compiled at the time.

The five buses in the picture were referred to, at the time, as the 'famous five and were rigouresly tested on service 51 in the summer of 1978. From left to right they are:-

Leyland 'Titan' B15/Park Royal H44/27D - Leyland TL11 engine/Pneumocyclic gearbox - NHG 732P ('530') - Leyland prototype/demonstrator

MCW 'Metrobus H43/28D - Gardner engine/Voith gearbox - TOJ 592S ('500') - MCW prototype/demonstrator

Foden MZC/East Lancs H45/29D - Gardner engine / Allison gearbox - SWG 311S (511)

Dennis Dominator DD101A/East Lancs H45/28D ' Rolls Royce Eagle engine / SCG auto-control - UET 621S (521)

Ailsa-Volvo B55-10 Mk.II/Van Hool-McArdle H43/31D - Turbo charged Volvo TD70E engine/ SCG automatic gearbox - SHL 930S (430)

Another picture exists which must have been taken on 27th July with an additional three vehicles added:-

Leyland 'Atlantean' AN68A/1R/East Lancs H43/32F - Voith D851 transmission - NAK 323R (323) - This was the first bus fitted with Voith transmission.

Leyland 'Titan' B15/Park Royal H47/26F - FHG 592S - Leyland prototype/demonstrator - This was trailed but never used by passengers in Sheffield.

Leyland 'Atlantean' AN68A/1R/Roe H45/29D - VET6xxS (16xx) - This was one of a batch being delivered at the time and if I recall correctly was also used on the 51 to give a bench mark to compare the new designs against.

In addition present, but not included in the photograph was Foden NZC/Northern Counties H43/30F - WTO 101S then in service with Derby City Transport. It is also probable that Dennis Dominator DD101/East Lancs H45/32F SHE 722S (522) was also present.

This brought together all the new designs of double decker then emerging and it is not an exageration to say that the trials greatly influencenced design and purchases throughout Britain for many years.

As fas as I am aware the only one of this collection to survive is MCW Metrobus TOJ 592S now significantly altered.

With regard to photographs, I have never been a great photographer, so only have a few in my collection bought from others of these. Certainly many pictures though were taken at the time and I would be interested in any that might be available that can be viewed or purchased.

Service 51 was commonly used to trial new designs of bus so I suspect the passage of time has caused 'littlemalc' some confusion. Certainly his recollection of six though suggests the 16xx 'Atlantean' was part of the trial. In addition to the trials taking place with double deckers a Seddon battery bus (XVU 387M) was also in Sheffield at the time so it may be this 'littlemalc' recalls. This was in connection with an electric vehicles conference in late May 1978 (see earlier posting) with battery powered Leyland 'National' with trailer (OTF 354M) also being on loan and SYPTE Crompton Electricar (CWO 516K-1000) seeing use. Incidently, I am not aware of the other Crompton Electricar (CWO 600K-1001) ever being used but stand to be corrected.

Hope all this makes sense and is of interest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
madannie77

Fantastic post, and welcome to Sheffield History, Peter Hall.

It is great to have so much detail about the trials over and above the bare details of the "famous five" buses as seen in the first post of this topic.

I hope you have lots more information to impart in the Transport section, as it is a bit moribund at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...