Yorks & Lancs

[Blacky]

I'm after some guidance!

I am currently researching my family history, and I have come across an old photograph of an Uncle of my grand fathers who served in the great war.

The picture is believed to be of George Wildgoose who, according to Grandad served with the Yorks & Lancs.

However, the cap badge is definately the west yorks and NOT Yorks & Lancs! There are no other insignia on collar etc.

Does anyone know why a Sheffield lad would have joined the west yorks rather than the yorks & lancs.

There is no date on the photo so i cannot tell at what point of the war this was taken.

Is it possible that units were merged later in the war as heavy casualties depleted the existing Battalions? I know that the Sheff Pals took rediculous losses on the Somme for example.

It is also mentioned that either George or his brother Albert were employed with Painted Fabrics after the war.

I would appreciate any help anyone could offer.

[Guest Trefcon]

Hi,

any chance of posting the pic or an image of the cap badge? York & Lancs - a Tiger with a Yorkshire Rose above, (cat & cabbage), and the West Yorks a horse above 'West Yorkshire'.

He could have attested into the West Yorks and then been transferred to the York & Lancs. Because he was a Sheffield lad did not mean he would have served in the local regt. At the start of the war you could usually join your local unit but as the war went on you were sent where needed. Also Sheffield was in the West Riding at the time.

This is the only George Wildgoose's card on Ancetry or the National Archives with York & Lancs.

If this is your man then -

This George was sent to pension under Kings Regulation's, Paragraph 392 XVI, (no longer physically fit for war service) Army Order 29119.

List /5170/2 - This is a reference to the Silver War Badge, and the Roll, so he was wounded or ill while serving, if he was wounded he would have had a vertical wound stripe on the left forearm of his uniform.

This George was entitled to the Victory & British War medal's, the numbers refer to the actual Roll and page number his details appear in at Kew.

There are 3 George Wildgoose's pension papers on Ancestry, but none alluding to the York & Lancs.

I also know someone who is researching the name 'Wildgoose', if you want me to pass on your details let me know.

hope this helps

Dean.

[Guest Falls]

Hi

My wife had two great uncles in Word War I. One was in the York and Lancs, being a Sheffielder, but his brother was in a Scottish Regiment. By the middle of the war, losses were so great that men were just moved to where ever the need was greatest. Both were killed on the Somme (age 19 &20) and have no know graves.

Even in the days of National Service, not all local lads ended up in the York and Lancs. It was just as likely that you would end up in the Duke of Wellington's (WR) or even the Green Howards. Of course, if you were totally crazy, you could 'volunteer' for the KOYLI's.

Regards

[Blacky]

Thanks to Dean & falls for the replies.

Here is the photo in question. it has a post card back but no details of the studio where it was taken or any date.

I cant see any wound stripes or any insignia on the collar or shoulders. would this indicate that he had just signed up? Im not sure.

I also believe that George or maybe his brother Albert were wounded quite badly and ended up working at painted fabrics @ meadowhead after the war.

Also, Im happy for you to point your friends researching the Wildgoose's in my direction.

Thanks again,

Lee.

[Stuart0742]

A quick bit of tweaking, hope you don't mind

[RichardB]

...

It is also mentioned that either George or his brother Albert were employed with Painted Fabrics after the war.

...

Thanks Blacky, hope you find more details, please keep us informed of any findings.

Your mention of Painted Fabrics has raised the following topic :

http://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/i...?showtopic=5812

Good Luck

-------------------------

With hindsight ...

Sorry, Painted Fabrics covered elsewhere, but, the BBC link is quite useful.

[Beery]

Hi Blacky,

I just had a look at the photo. The cap badge does seem to be that of the West Yorkshire Regiment. At first I thought it looked like the sphynx of the Lincolnshire Regiment, because the horse seems to be sitting on its haunches, but I think this must be a trick of the light (or maybe just a flaw in the process when they were making that particular badge.

Anyway, your grandfather's uncle may have been in both the York and Lancasters and the West Yorks. My grandad was in a total of three different regiments (Durham Light Infantry, West Yorkshire and North Staffordshire) and the Labour Corps. Two of the regiments weren't even based in his county, so anything is possible when it comes to a soldier's regimental associations.

The cap seems to have the wire stiffener in it, which would tend to say to me that this picture was taken between 1914 and 1916. Between 1916 and '18, soldiers seem to have been allowed to take the stiffeners out or to wear the later pattern 'trench cap'. This became more common as the war progressed.

The cap doesn't look quite as new and smart as it might if he were one of the Old Contemptibles of 1914. The uniform seems a bit ill-fitting (no disrespect to your relative meant). This indicates a Kitchener's Army soldier, putting him closer to 1916-18 than 1914-15.

The man seems to be wearing puttees, which indicates that the soldier is not on leave and may be on the march somewhere. The gloves (which look like thick woollen gloves) are unusual and indicate to me that the photo is taken in winter.

I'm looking for any other insignia, but I don't see anything: none of the unit patches that started to be used from 1916; no wound or service stripes; no rank chevrons. Again, all of this indicates either an earlier war photo or a relatively new recruit.

The studio portrait has a woodland background, but this only really tells us that the picture was probably taken in Northern Europe - not much of a clue, but since you say this is a postcard you'll be able to tell more from the back of the card - whether it's English or French - that type of thing.

So what can we learn from all this?

This man was a private soldier in the West Yorkshire Regiment who perhaps hadn't seen much of the war yet. It may be early 1916 and this man may be in England on his way to the front or just recently off the boat in France. Because he's wearing puttees, he's probably popped into a photo studio while his platoon is taking a rest break on the march somewhere.

Of course this is all conjecture based on probability. There's nothing absolute that proves that this man could not have been photographed as early as 1909 or as late as 1920, but the little clues lead me to suspect that this photo was taken in early 1916.

I just took a look at that medal card that Deansgirl posted. If that card is indeed referring to your relative, then he joined up in May 1916. As such, I'd have to say that this photo was taken during a cold period in May shortly after he joined up. If not, and if the postcard is English, I'd have to say that this picture would have to be from late 1916 or early 1917 despite all the other evidence I've noted above. If the postcard is French I'd say that against all the conclusions I made above, the photo would have to be a late war one, taken in the winter of 1917-18 or even 1918-19 because this man would have been undergoing training for a number of months before shipping out to the front. Like I said, anything is possible, but we can try to narrow it down a bit using probabilities.

Hehe, after all this I realise that I've basically come to no conclusion whatsoever from what's in the photo, and that there's a heck of a lot more to be learned from the postcard on the back, hehe. But it was fun getting here anyway.

By the way, I just ran into this pdf file that helps people identify WW1 photos.

Hope all this helps.

[Guest maureennewton]

Thanks to Dean & falls for the replies.

Here is the photo in question. it has a post card back but no details of the studio where it was taken or any date.

I cant see any wound stripes or any insignia on the collar or shoulders. would this indicate that he had just signed up? Im not sure.

I also believe that George or maybe his brother Albert were wounded quite badly and ended up working at painted fabrics @ meadowhead after the war.

Also, Im happy for you to point your friends researching the Wildgoose's in my direction.

Thanks again,

Lee.

I remember Mr Wildgoose and it looks like him living on Ogden Place Meadowhead. He lived next door to my Grandad Hardy who had an arm & leg off. They worked on Painted Fabrics.Ogden Place or Earl Haig homes was built for severely disable men and their families.Mr Wildgoose and I don't know whether he was Albert or George had a young son called Albert and a son called George who will be in his 70's and lives on Low Edges estate. I last met him about 2003 when we had a committee to recognise the work of Annie Bindon carter and raised money for a plaque. My brother was chairman of the committee and got the ball rolling. Maureen

[Blacky]

Hi Maureen,

Thank you so much for taking the time in replying I had just resigned myself to never actually finding out 100% who the old tommy was.

My late grandfather, who also lived on Lowedges with my parents until his death earlier this year used to mention him frequently and how because of his head injuries Albert wouldnt always recognise him.

If it is Albert i believe he married a lady called Alice Bartles in around 1925?

Does any of this sound right to you?

Albert Wildgoose was my great grand uncle and would dearly like to find out more about him.

Feel free to PM me if you wish.

Thanks again,

Lee

[Blacky]

added to this - just had a quick scan on Free BMD and found a George Wildgoose born in September 1937 and maiden name of the mother was.........Bartles.

I have goose pimples (no pun intended!)

[Guest maureennewton]

Hi again Lee, Just remembered what my brother told me. Mr Wildgoose had a metal plate in his head from the war, which gave him a lot of problems and after the plate was removed he was a lot better..Just a minor point. Regards. Maureen

[Blacky]

Hi Maureen,

That is exactly what my grandad used to tell me about him.

I have the war diaries (his was in the Battle of Loos) and his attestation papers which mention a gun shot wound to the head.

He spent some time in Chelsea Hospital before being moved to Winter Street hospital.

Do you have any contacts within the committee you mentioned as I'd love to make contact with his son if he is still with us?

Thanks again anyway - always nice to know that what my Grandad Hill told me was correct.

Lee