Please can we have our Castle back? - update

[Bayleaf]

There's a growing wish among the people of Sheffield to have the Castle ruins made a feature when the Castle Markets are demolished.

Up to now this has surfaced as a few letters in the local press, but I emailed my Councillor to ask how any decisions could be influenced, and got this reply :

"Thanks for getting in touch about Sheffield Castle. You are not the first one to have raised this with us.

There are various ways you could raise it if you could come along to one of the following meetings:

1 To the public petitions and questions session at 2.00 pm at Full Council on 30th July. You would have the opportunity to put your question to the whole Council and the relevant Cabinet Member would reply and probably offer to look into the issue for you.

2 To the Culture, Economy and Leisure Scrutiny Board (I think that is the right title!) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 29 July. Again you could ask questions and the Scrutiny board members would probably ask some of their own. An officer report would then be brought back to a subsequent Scrutiny Board and you would be invited to come along.

3 To Cabinet at 2.00 pm on 6 August. Again, you would be able to ask your questions in the public question slot at the beginning of the meeting and Cabinet could either ask for a report or instruct an officer to write to you.

4 Another option would be to organise a petition and then present it at either full Council (usually first Wednesday in the month except for July/August) or at Cabinet (second and fourth Wednesdays of the month.)

Hope this helps. If you decide to go down one of these routes, please let me know so that we can get appropriate officers in place who would be able to respond! "

Unfortunately I can't make any of these meetings, but I wondered if anyone on here felt strongly enough to go along?

Otherwise does anyone know how to set up a petition so that people like Richard and Tsavo (assuming they agree!) and other interested ex-pats can join in?

[Guest tsavo]

Good point Bayleaf, maybe we can start a poll on the subject and use that to submit to the council. Admin will know if that's possible. Will ask. Brilliant idea!

[RichardB]

Get The Star on the task, while we are on the subject, get The Star on what the heck to do with this enormous heap of maps I'm sitting on !

Sheffield History = The Castle, The Pepperpot Building, Leah's Yard, Salvation Army, Sheffield Coach Houses, Workhouses, Old Pubs, Factories and stuff.

If Newcastle can preserve the face of "Grainger Town" since 1832 surely Sheffield can make at least a token attempt ! Buildings on Fargate have been stripped and rebuilt behind original facias; why isn't this the default option ? Save the 150 year old building facia; build, if you must, the modern shopping centre/hotel.

Sheffield had has little enough of old buildings ...

[Guest tsavo]

PM'd Admin and he suggests that the government petition system would probably be the simplest way as the system is already in place.

So.....any volunteers?

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/

[Guest tsavo]

Get The Star on the task, while we are on the subject, get The Star on what the heck to do with this enormous heap of maps I'm sitting on !

Get in a decent stock of pile ointment, maybe.....!

[Bayleaf]

PM'd Admin and he suggests that the government petition system would probably be the simplest way as the system is already in place.

So.....any volunteers?

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/

Just had an interesting email, I'm waiting for permission to quote it here. In the meantime, watch this space!

(Sorry to be so cryptic!)

[dobberd]

Would it be worthwhile to get in touch with the "Time Team" on Channel 4. A bit of interest from them and it's resulting publicity may help with the project.

[RichardB]

The Moat was 30 feet wide and 18 feet deep, lined with stone - gotta be able to find something, the earth from the Moat was used to raise the level of the Castle, gotta be something underneath Lady's Bridge (1486) too.

They could Carbon date the supposed remains of the original wooden Castle.

[Bayleaf]

Just had an interesting email, I'm waiting for permission to quote it here. In the meantime, watch this space!

(Sorry to be so cryptic!)

Here goes. I contacted my local councillor (see original post) and she suggested several ways to move forward. Since then I had another email from her with a copy of a letter she had sent to another person who had raised the same matter. The gist of the letter was:

"A few years ago the Council conducted some trial archaeological digs on the access road to the market and uncovered surprisingly well preserved remains of what appeared to be a road way and wall although this was reduced to foundation level.

I tend to agree that if the castle can be uncovered and if the remains are significant then it does have significant potential within the city as an Education resource and beyond the city as a visitor attraction. The intention therefore is that following the move of the Castle Market to its new site on The Moor in approximately two years time, we will then demolish the Castle Market and carry out an archaeological dig. This will ascertain once and for all the extent to which the castle remains are intact.

What happens after that will be determined by what is discovered, although personally I would hope to see any remains made available for public viewing and celebrated in the appropriate manner. The potential of some form of Castle Gardens comes to mind.

I am sure you will recognise that demolishing the market and carrying out an archaeological dig in its own right will be a significant undertaking, and hopefully this demonstrates to you the Council is determined to ensure that what remains of the castle is reflected in modern Sheffield."

Sounds hopeful. In the short term the argument has been won it seems. However the state of politics in Sheffield at present could mean another change of Council before then, we need to keep a watchful eye open.

[Bayleaf]

Letter in today's Telegraph. I hope this isn't going to become a political football. Given what's already been said though, it sounds as if the plan has all-party support, which has to be a good thing.

http://www.sheffieldtelegraph.co.uk/letter...rket.4409265.jp

[RichardB]

According to the third paragraph

http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/business-econo...0s-to-the-1700s

the Castle doesn't even count as historic, or even old.

[RichardB]

http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/business-econo...l-investigation

[Bayleaf]

Went to the first meeting of the group today, very interesting. The proposal to excavate and conserve the remains in the form of a public open space apparently has cross-party support within the Council. The site won't be available until 2010/2011. The main stumbling blocks all seem to have large £-signs attached, but there is a clear intention to get the project going.

I was given a photocopy of an excellent article that might be of interest. It's entitled 'England's Lost Castles - Sheffield'. It's from the Castle Study Group Bulletin No 18:2004-5.

It's pretty comprehensive description of the history and the research . It's 19 pages long, but to give you a flavour, here are the section headings.

Location

Summary of new research

The Great Hall;

the 12th century castle;

Civil War and destruction;

Area and groundplan;

the future

Sheffield Castle - the historical and archaeological background:

Desk based assessment;

Field evaluation of the lower loading bay;

previously identified castle remains;

the castle gateway

Courtyard building in the north east corner

Walling in the SW corner

Walling on the 'precipice'

The Courtyard

The moat

The Results:

trench1-2001

Phase 2.1, 2.2,2.3, 3.1

Trench 2-2001

Sheffield Castle Plan

The regional context of Sheffield Castle

Interpretation

Potential

There are also info panels on:

The 20th century excavations with a plan;

The castle in the 12th century - De Lovetot;

the castle in the 13th & early 14th century-de Furnival;

The Talbots - Earls of Shrewsbury; Demolition 1646-48;

The Castle Studies group has a website, with back copies of the bulletin available, including this one. A bit pricey at £10 + p&p if all you want is this article.

http://www.castlestudiesgroup.org.uk/page13.html

Looking at the bibliography, most of the information is from unpublished reports so unless you've the time and opportunity to go looking, it seems to be a very useful summary.

[Guest Gramps]

Looking at the bibliography, most of the information is from unpublished reports so unless you've the time and opportunity to go looking, it seems to be a very useful summary.

Pleased to see there is still some interest in Sheffield Castle. I would have thought Local Studies or Sheffield Archives would have a copy of that bulletin, but then I'm quite often surprised by the things they haven't got....or can't find.

The excavation report of 1927 (?) is in one of the early volumes of the HAS, available in Local Studies.

One of the puzzling things about the castle is how the water was got into the ditches that lie beneath Waingate and Exchange street.

According to the excavation report the bottom of the ditch beneath Exchange street was found to be 33 feet below the street level at that time; this would put the ditch bottom at about the level as the river Sheaf so a simple dam/weir might have been sufficient. Perhaps the same weir that supplied the Lord's Mill in Castle Orchards ?

[RichardB]

At the N.E. part of the town where the two rivers meet, anciently stood

the Castle, which with the lordship of Sheffield (as appears by an ancient

record) was granted to Thomas Lord Fournyvale, 39 Edward III., to be

held by homage and knight-service, and the payment to the King and his

heirs of two white hares yearly, on the feast of St. John the Baptist.

This castle was demolished in the civil wars. A copy of the capitulation

by one Seville, the governor, is still preserved.*

There are very few vestiges of this ancient fabric now remaining, except that the streets and places

thereabout still retain their original names, as Castle-hill, Castle-field, Castle-

fold, Castle-green, Castle-lathe, &c.

After the surrender at York, the Earl of Manchester marched down to Doncaster,

and from thence sent Col. John Lilburn to take Tickhill Castle, which surrendered upon .

summons. The arms found in it were, one iron cannon mounted, and 100 muskets.

On August the first, the said Earl sent Major-General Crawford, and Col. Pickering,

with part of his forces, viz. 1200 foot, and a regiment of horse, to Sheffield Castle,

The castle was a place of great strength, both for its natural situation and fortifications ;

for it stood on a triangle, guarded on two sides by the rivers Dun and Sheafe ; a strong

breast-work before the gates, which were palisadoed with a trench twelve feet deep,

and eighteen feet wide, which was full of water; and a wall ronnd of five yards thick.

The Parliament forces being come near, fired three great shots, which did some execution

in the Castle. Then they summoned them to surrender by a trumpeter ; but they shot at him three times,

and brandishing their swords cried out,

" they would have no parley,"

whereupon the Parliament forces advanced into the town, and lay there

that night; in which and the next day they raised two batteries, within sixty yards

of the enemy's outworks; whereon the ordnance began to play, but doing no great

execution, and the Castle standing out very resolutely, they were obliged to send to

Lord Fairfax for an iron demi-camion, and that great piece called the Queen's Pocket

Pistol, which being brought and mounted, did the work so effectually, that on the 10th

of August the garrison beat a parley, and the following articles were agreed on.

Articles of Agreement, between the commanders authorised by Major-General Crawford,

and Major Thomas Beaumont, Governor of Sheffield Castle, for surrendering

the same to the Right Honourable the Earl of Manchester.

ART. I. The Castle, with all the fire-arms, ordnance, and ammunition, all their furniture

of war, aud all their provisions (except what is in the following articles), to be

delivered to Major-General Crawford to morrow, by three o'clock in the afternoon, being

the 11th of this instant August, without any diminution or embezzlement.

ART. II. That the Governor, and all other officers, shall march out of the Castle upon

the delivery thereof, with their drums and colours, and each his own horse saddled,

sword and pistol, to Pomfret Castle, or wheresoever they please, with a sufficient convoy

or pass, for their security ; the common soldiers to their own home, or where they

please.

ART. III. That all officers and soldiers, so marching ont, on this agreement, shall

have liberty to carry with them their wives, children, and servants, with their own

goods, properly belonging to them, and shall have all convenient accommodation for

carrying the same away.

ART. IV. That the Lady Savill, and her children and family, with her own proper

goods, shall and may pass with coaches, horses, and waggons to Thornhill, or elsewhere,

with a sufficient guard, befitting her quality ; and without injury to any of

their persons, or plundering any of their goods or otherwise. She, they, or any of

them, to go or stay at their own pleasure, until she or they be in a condition to remove

themselves.

ART. V. That the gentlemen in the Castle being no soldiers, shall march out with

each his own horse saddled, sword and pistol, and shall have liberty to remove their

goods, and to live in their own house, or elsewhere, without molestation; they conforming

to the ordinances of Parliament, and they shall hare protection of the Earl of

Manchester and Lords. And all officers and soldiers, who choose to lay down their arms,

shall have the same protection.

ART. VI. That the governor, officers, soldiers, gentlemen, and all others who are

by this agreement to carry their own goods with them, shall have a week's time for removing

the same; and in the mean time they are to be in the Castle, and secure from

embezzlement. And this article is to be understood of all such goods as are at present

within the Castle, or under the absolute command thereof.

ART. VII. That Kelm Homoe, now living in the Castle, shall have liberty to remove

his goods into the town, or elsewhere, without molestation.

ART. VIII. That the governor, officers, gentlemen, and all other persons, shall (according

to the articles above-mentioned) march out without injury or molestation.

ART. IX. That hostages, such as Major Crawford shall approve, shall be delivered

by the governor, upon signing the articles for delivery of the Castle, and safe return of

the envoy ; which hostages shall be returned safe, upon the performance hereof, unto

such place as they desire.

Signed by us, Commissioners authorised by Major CRAWFORD, at Sheffield,

this, 11th of August 1644.

J. PlCKERING.

MARK GRIM.

WILLIAM HAMILTON.

Signed by as, Commissioners authorised by Major Ð’EAUMONT, Governor of

Sheffield Castle, this 11th of August 1644.

GABRIEL HEMSWORTH.

SAM. SAVILL.

THUS. ROBSON.

Lady Savill was carried to Wentworth Woodbouse, but delivered of a child in the coach on the road,

from a fright on the night before, by the terrible fire made against the Castle.

The governor marched the next day ont of the Castle, with 200 men. The booty

they got in the Castle was sixteen thousand and fifty-nine granades, a great quantity of

round shot, from the cannon to the minion, twelve barrels of powder, eight iron cannons,

two mortars, five hundred arms, and four hundred pounds worth of provisions.

The country hereabouts gaye the Parliament's army 500 pounds, for their good serviced

against the place, and a party of soldiers under Col. Bright was left to keep it.

August the 17th, 1645, Mr. Edward Gill was governor of Sheffield Castle.

—Mr. John Bright of Carbrook, was a colonel of foot, governor of York, and one of the committee

for the west riding of Yorkshire.

—Henry Westby of Bamfield, and William Blyth of Norton-Lees, were captians in the Parliament army.

the Castle.

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Which begs the question, who was Kelm Homoe ???