18th Century Sheffield Methodists - Looking for a connection between Thomas Holy and James Vickers

[mistertaylor]

Hi All,

Hoping someone can help... I'm looking for a connection between Thomas Holy (1752-1830), "financier of Sheffield Methodism" and my 6th-great-grandfather James Vickers (c1737-1809), manufacturer of Britannia Metal.

From the book "A History of Norfolk Street Wesleyan Chapel" by Rev. T. Alexander Seed, and other similar sources, they certainly knew each other - however, I've seen a couple of mentions that James Vickers was either son-in-law to Thomas Holy's father's wife (also Thomas Holy), Sarah Wilson (1725-1786), "son-in-law to the the Holy family" or that Sarah was "related to" James Vickers.

Hoping some can shed some light on this - thanks!

Incidentally, Sarah was from the Wilsons of Sharrow family who made snuff, and the Holy family were button manufacturers and land owners.

[Edmund]

On the assumption that James Vickers was a son-in-law to the Holy family, the most likely father-in-law to James would be Daniel Holy, buttonmaker - and according to Hunter (see FMG extract below) Daniel had one or more daughters. I've not found any birth or marriage records that help, however Daniel's will from 1757 is available at the Sheffield Archives reference MD5716/1/9 - and might refer to his sons / daughters / son-in-laws.  This item also contains wills of Thomas Holy buttonmaker (1758), Sarah Holy Thomas' widow (1768) and Thomas Wilson her father (1737). Beware of confusion with several later silver plating Daniels!

 

[Edmund]

This Sheffield marriage in 1802 appears to be much too late but the names match and your James Vickers was still alive (not sure who this Sarah Hawley was):

and from the Sheffield Independent of 20th August 1825:

DIED

On Tuesday week, aged 82, at Leeds, Mrs Sarah Vickers, relict of the late Mr. James Vickers, of this place.  She had been a member of the Wesleyan Methodist Society 62 years ; during which period her piety had been genuine and her character exemplary.

Sarah had died at the house of William Mallorie, her son-in-law, at Cobourg street, Leeds.

[Edmund]

Here's an abstract of the will of James Vickers following his death in 1809.  It makes no reference to a living wife. It refers to his son John (1768-1842) and daughter Hannah (married John Stacey 1781, had son Ebenezer in 1800)

 

[mistertaylor]

Thanks, Edmund - really appreciated!

I already had a copy of James Vickers will, but didn’t pick up that his wife wasn’t mentioned. Need to do some further research.

I’m not sure the marriage record you found is “my” James Vickers, but gives me a further avenue to look into. I’ve been unable to find a record or name for JV’s wife (other than some public trees on Ancestry.com as Lydia Crooks, but there’s no sources to back this up). Certainly “Mrs Vickers” is mentioned in the history of Sheffield Methodists, but never by name.

The FGM for the Holy family is very useful, again more research needed!

Thanks,

James

 

[mistertaylor]

A little more research:

Quote

The Wilson family were snuffmakers, who founded a snuff manufactory at Sharrow in Sheffield in the late eighteenth century, after Joseph Wilson inherited £1,900 from the estate of his father, a shear smith and edge-tool maker. Wilson had married Ann Greaves in about 1752 and the couple had thirteen children during the course of their marriage. Joseph Wilson was the brother of Sarah Holy, the button manufacturer. Although Sarah did not convert to Methodism until after the death of her husband, their other brother John was described as an ardent follower of Wesley, and built a preaching-house in the town in 1746. Relations between father and sons were not cordial and both Joseph’s nephew Thomas Holy and the Methodist minister Alexander Mather intervened at various points during the 1780s. Joseph moved to London and wanted to start a new snuff manufactory there as well as planning to build a house for himself and his wife in the capital. Joseph made a concerted effort to reunite himself with his wife, trying to persuade her to move to London with him. She replied "I would not have you give your self the least Trouble about a House for me, as I am confident I shall never leave Sheffield, therefore you need send no plans of Houses it is too late in the Day for me to change my Situation and I think I can spend my Days happily where I am". Joseph may well have been reminded of his attempts in 1771 to persuade the wife of one of his employees, the filesmith James Vickers, to join him in Sheffield by providing a rent-free home. Like Mrs Wilson, Mrs Vickers had refused to move.

I do know that James Vickers was apprenticed to Christopher Greaves, a filesmith, and granted his freedom in 1763. (could be a relation to Ann Greaves, Joseph Wilson's wife?). Since James Vickers didn't "discover" Britannia Metal until 1769/70 and had to borrow money (£10 from Charles Dixon, of Dixon & Sons) to make spoons to sell in London, its likely he was also in employment at the time.

It seems that James Vickers is mentioned in a letter, Ann Wilson to Joseph Wilson, 26 May 1789, but I don't have access to it.

So, certainly, the Wilsons, Holys and Vickers all knew each other, but I haven't been able to piece together their exact relationships.

I also haven't been able to find any record of Christopher Greaves in Sheffield at this time.

Source: The Business of Women: Female Enterprise and Urban Development in Northern England 1760-1830

[Edmund]

Sheffield Archives have a copy of the will of Christopher Greaves, a file cutter who died in 1769.  Their reference is CB/13/4/12.  Alternatively for £7.50 Borthwick can supply a copy - will proved May 1769, volume 113, folio 92.

Ann Greaves / Wilson

 

[Edmund]

Some more information to add:

A Lidea Crooks married a James Vickers (filesmith) on 7th November 1758.  A Lydia Vickers, wife of James a Mettlesmith, was buried on 8th March 1802.

The children mentioned on James Vickers' will : Hannah daughter of James a filesmith  baptised 5th November 1759. Hannah married John Stacey on 1st April 1781 (Mary Vickers was a witness).  John son of James Vickers was baptised on 14th May 1768. Elizabeth married Elijah West on 22nd September 1793.  Mary Vickers was baptised on 21st August 1765 and married George Butcher on 15th February 1784.

Below are some extracts from Everett's 1823 "Historical Sketches of Wesleyan Methodism in Sheffield".  He notes that the daughter of Mrs.Ludlam (a half sister of Thomas Holy) was the widow of James Vickers, and still living in 1823.  A cross reference with the Wilson tree from Familiae Minorum Gentium shows that Elizabeth Wilson (a daughter from Thomas Wilson's first marriage) married Joseph Ludlam, and that their daughter  married James Wickers (Vickers?). Everett states that James Vickers wife died in 1802 - an Ann Vickers, wife of James, filesmith, was buried on 3rd May 1802 at the parish church.

[mistertaylor]

Thank you again Edmund - really appreciate your efforts here!

I had seen a marriage record for James Vickers and Lydia Crookes previously, but besides the dates being in the right period and his profession, I couldn't, with certainty, say this was the same James Vickers.

There's quite a bit to dig into here - thanks again!

[mistertaylor]

I've now got a scanned copy of James Vickers' will dated December 1808 (he died April 1809) from the Borthwick Institute - in it he names his wife, Sarah (although he doesn't bequeath her anything!). As noted above his (first?) wife died in 1802, so Sarah must a been a second marriage... checking the records give two possibles - the Sarah Hawley (as per post above) in November 1802 or Sarah Roberts in September 1804. 

Is it reasonable to compare James' signatures from his will to the marriage banns to identify which Sarah?

 

[Edmund]

Not that I get any commission from Borthwick.... but they can supply a copy of the marriage licence for Sarah Roberts (age 59) and James Vickers (age 67) dated 11th September 1804 (record sequence number 11, page number 306) as they didn't marry by reading of Banns.

From the "Died" section of the Sheffield Independent of 20th August 1825:  "On Tuesday week, aged 82, at Leeds, Mrs. Sarah Vickers, relict of the late Mr. James Vickers, of this place. She had been a member of the Wesleyan Methodist Society 62 years; during which period her piety had been genuine and her character exemplary." She died on 9th August at the house of William Mallorie, her son-in-law, in Cobourg street.  Her burial took place on 12th August at the Old Chapel (Wesleyan) Leeds.

[mistertaylor]

Following up on this, I think I'm getting closer to untangling James Vickers' wife(s)...

To recap: James Vickers (c1737 - 1809) of Garden Walk (later known as Garden Street), Sheffield was a Britannia Metal Manufacturer. It was mentioned in his will of 1808 that his widow was named Sarah (although he didn’t bequeath anything to her). He was an early Methodist and along with Francis Hawke, a filesmith on Allen Street (adjacent to Garden Street) and Henry Longden, of Longden, Newton & Chambers and also a Methodist Class Leader, set up a Sunday School in Garden Street.

From “Historical Sketches of Wesleyan Methodism in Sheffield” by James Everett, Vickers’ previous (first?) wife died in 1802 - this gives a 6 year window for him to remarry. There’s two possibilities in Sheffield, Sarah Hawley and Sarah Roberts. Vickers’ signature on his will is a very close match to the signature on the marriage record for Sarah Roberts, so I’m reasonably confident this is the Sarah in question. They were married by licence on 11 September 1804, she was a 59 year old widow (born ~1745).

An obituary in the Sheffield Independent of 20th August 1825 states: “On Tuesday week, aged 82, at Leeds, Mrs. Sarah Vickers, relict of the late Mr. James Vickers, of this place. She had been a member of the Wesleyan Methodist Society 62 years; during which period her piety had been genuine and her character exemplary." She died on 9th August at the house of William Mallorie, her son-in-law, in Cobourg street.” Her burial took place on 12th August at the Old Chapel (Wesleyan) Leeds. This puts her date of birth around 1743 and the year she joined the Methodists around 1763 (which from “Norfolk Street Wesleyan Chapel: Being a History of This Famous Sanctuary” by Rev. T.A. Seed was the same year as James Vickers).

Reviewing “Norfolk Street Wesleyan Chapel…”, a Joseph Roberts of Garden Walk is listed as a person who would receive subscriptions and donations alongside James Vickers. In fact, a map from 1783, ref. arc04113 on Picture Sheffield, shows them to be neighbours. This website states that Joseph Roberts was a razor manufacturer in Garden Street and was listed as a razorsmith in Gales & Martin’s 1787 Directory.

Looking at possible marriage records, Sarah Barlow, a widow aged 45 (born ~ 1750) married a widower, Joseph Roberts, aged 50 (born ~1745) on 11th October 1795. The signatures on the marriage record for Sarah Roberts and Sarah Barlow have distinctive flourishes and closely match, again leading me to believe they’re the same person. Also, a razorsmith named Joseph Roberts was buried 19th December 1802, fitting the timeframe for Sarah to be a widow in 1804 for her marriage to James Vickers.

Furthermore, there’s a record of a William Mallorie of Leeds (mentioned in Sarah Vickers’ obituary) marrying Hannah Barlow of Sheffield on 21st February 1803. A Hannah Barlow, daughter of Thomas, a scissorsmith, and Sarah was baptised 22nd May 1782, making her potentially 21 at the time of marriage to William. From the Derby Mercury 3rd March 1803, “Married: On Monday fe’nnight, Mr William Mallorie, of Leeds Mercer and Draper, to Miss Hannah Barlow, daughter of the late Mr. Thomas Barlow, Scissor Manufacturer, of Sheffield”.

Reviewing (the many, many) marriages in Sheffield between a groom with surname “Barlow” and bride with first name “Sarah” lead me to the marriage between Thomas Barlow, a bachelor, and Sarah Ludlam, a spinster, on 3rd October 1779. Witnesses were Henry Longden (possibly the acquaintance of James Vickers from Sunday School?) and Hannah Mycock. A record for Sarah Ludlam, of North Wingfield, Derbyshire, shows her being baptised on 28th December 1748, again the correct approximate age. 

The signature for Sarah Ludlam on the marriage record, while not as close a match to the others, looks to be a similar style as that of Sarah Roberts and Sarah Barlow, although with more fluid handwriting.

And lastly, many sources mention that James Vickers was either “some relation” or son-in-law to the Holy family. Thomas Holy of Sheffield Moor was a landowner, button maker and another prominent Methodist. In Everett’s “Historical Sketches of Wesleyan Methodism in Sheffield” it’s mentioned that Holy’s mother, Sarah Wilson’s “half sister, Mrs. Ludlam, was also one of the first members of Society, whose daughter, the widow of the late James Vickers, is still living [at time of publication in 1823], and was then exemplary for her piety.” Incidentally, Sarah Wilson was from the Wilson’s of Sharrow Snuff manufacturer family.

Do these pieces fit together? Can be I confident that Sarah Ludlam, Sarah Barlow, Sarah Roberts and Sarah Vickers were the same person? Are there any other methods I could use to verify this?

[mistertaylor]

On 17/03/2023 at 17:25, Edmund said:

Not that I get any commission from Borthwick.... but they can supply a copy of the marriage licence for Sarah Roberts (age 59) and James Vickers (age 67) dated 11th September 1804 (record sequence number 11, page number 306) as they didn't marry by reading of Banns.

Thanks - maybe you should get commission! I've ordered a copy of the marriage licence so hopefully will reveal/confirm some details.

[Geoffrey]

I've been trying to get to grips with James, my 5th gt-grandfather for many years, and beginning to write up my findings led me to revisit this site, after some months' absence. The interweaving of family relationships is quite extraordinary, so that I shall have to tabulate what has been found: Holy, Wilson, Vickers, Crooks &c. From other research I can also mention that one of the Thomas Holy's sisters and one of his daughters married successive Vicars of Norton (Peter Robinson & Henry H Pearson), which is omitted or garbled in the published family pedigree.

I'm pleased the issue of James' 2nd wife Sarah is also on its way to settlement. I'd dismissed both the 1802 and 1804 marriages on the grounds that no wife is mentioned in the official summary of James' will, but perhaps the original would give more information. Whatever the precise family relationship between James and Sarah Holy (nee Wilson), it has to predate her early death. Perhaps we should look at the marriage of Thos Wilson, cutler, and Elizabeth Crooks, sp 15/9/1754, and also that of Charles Vickers, buttonmaker & Mary Holey 4/10/1744 -the same year as the marriage of Thos Holy & Sarah Wilson (All at Sheffield P.C.).