A few photos of Sheffield City Centre from today (The Moor/Debenhams)

[fentonvillain]

On 29/10/2021 at 21:52, RLongden said:

Leeds, Manchester and even Nottingham have similar student populations, yet their city centres knock ours into a cocked hat

Especially Leeds !    Well worth a train ride. Never thought I'd have to admit it.

[Lysanderix]

Think….airport, electrified rail main line ,larger population in hinterland, banking centre, legal centre, commercial centre, tv studios, a City centre which is a centre and not a long street, a market which works….to name but a few advantages which Leeds possesses…to say nothing about the ambition of their local government…. which must have been in hysterics over our “ expensive shipping containers”.

[Bikeman]

Both Leeds, Manchester and Nottingham were established towns 200 years before Sheffield. Nottingham was on the eastern plains and benefited from flattish routes for roads and later, trains and then on up to Leeds area. Manchester was on the western plain. Sheffield was in the hills.

Sheffield was a rural backwater in Tudor times, hence Mary Queen of Scots being imprisoned here. It only improved in the 1700s due to the cutlery trade and later, steel. The hilly nature of Sheffield was a negative factor for industry until the Victorians started cutting through the hills from Derby to Sheffield for the railways and across to Manchester through Woodhead. 

(source: Sheffield University 1956 study of Sheffield area from medieval times)

[History dude]

3 hours ago, Bikeman said:

 

Sheffield was a rural backwater in Tudor times, hence Mary Queen of Scots being imprisoned here.

(source: Sheffield University 1956 study of Sheffield area from medieval times)

Mary Stuart was in Custody in Sheffield. She was NOT a prisoner.  Anyone who calls it "imprisonment" has not read the inscription on George Talbot tomb in Sheffield Cathedral. It makes no mention of being her jailer.  Talbot's instructions were precise. To treat her as a Queen, but not let her practice to escape.  She had that great entourage that they couldn't all be housed in either the Castle or Sheffield Manor (which had to rebuilt to deal with her requirements). She was allowed to hunt in Sheffield Park and take trips to Buxton for the waters. Name any prisoner that has that kind of privilege? 

Nearly everywhere was a backwater in Tudor times. Talbot was given the task because he was rich enough to pay for her upkeep. It wasn't that Sheffield was a backwater, it probably wasn't. Though in 1956, no archaeological digs had been carried out to show how grand Sheffield Manor and Castle were.  The university were simply going on what was believed at that time. Much of the data in the study will be out of date.      

[fentonvillain]

11 minutes ago, History dude said:

She was NOT a prisoner.  Anyone who calls it "imprisonment" has not read the inscription on George Talbot tomb in Sheffield Cathedral. It makes no mention of being her jailer.  Talbot's instructions were precise. To treat her as a Queen, but not let her practice to escape. 

Not sure you understand what you have written.  Not letting her (practice to) escape seems to me to mean imprisonment.  Yes?    (See my poem inscribed in steel in Castle View Park). (Full version available on request.)

[Lysanderix]

Sheffield has been described as a border City…being on the border between lowland and highland England….between old Northumbria and Mercia neither a Northern town or of the Midlands.

It may well have once been a rural backwater. However,industrialisation made it a most important ,rapidly growing settlement. In 1939 it was said that ….”one square mile of its East End was the most important of anywhere for the War effort.”Since then its chief industries have been decimated and it has had to try to find new roles…..it’s lack of transport infrastructure haven’t made this search any easier.As an example, despite once being a major producer of weapons and munitions ,we failed to be awarded the Armouries…which went to Leeds.

Our City..seems to be in a sort of limbo land….could this be something to do with its unambitious, hidebound, local politicians…of all colours?

 

 

[History dude]

4 hours ago, fentonvillain said:

Not sure you understand what you have written.  Not letting her (practice to) escape seems to me to mean imprisonment.  Yes?    (See my poem inscribed in steel in Castle View Park). (Full version available on request.)

Custody is not imprisonment. You can be held in custody and you are not allowed to leave it. It fact Mary requested to be kept safe. That means protective custody.  Though there wasn't a term for that at that time. She might have described it has imprisonment. But in the context she was in it would have been the same if she had witnessed a Mafia style killing and was waiting to give evidence. Lots of people in England would have killed Mary. People in Scotland would have done it to then blamed the English for her death. Some in the French Court wanted her dead too. Instead of waiting for Queen Elizabeth to die of natural causes. Nobody had any idea how long would have lived. She several times set about getting into several plots to kill the Queen and take the throne. I don't know if your poem praises Mary or what. But if it was Elizabeth who had come to Mary, Elizabeth would have dead in a week. Mary would not have credited her as being a Queen still after she had resigned. After Queen Elizabeth was shot at in the Babbington Plot, they finally accepted the Mary was NOT a Queen. But it took 19 years for that to happen.       

[Ponytail]

Sheffield has the oldest Magnet Company in the World, Knives and tools that are still prized around the world and sell for large amounts in auctions, an Assay Office since 1773, Inventions in Metallurgy that changed the world etc etc.

Methinks we let the products do the talking and didn't shout loud enough.

Unfortunately people buy on the cheap instead of quality that lasts. Same happened in the cloth making Cities. 

Thought about who are the famous folk born in Sheffield or made Sheffield their home. First Britain in space, how many world champion boxers? ... from one gym in Wincobank, the goal keeper who is still lauded as the best, inventors, entertainers.... 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_Sheffield

Mary Queen of Scots was kept in captivity for 19 years, 14 of which in Sheffield.... allowed out under strict supervision... 14 years and didn't escape? either it was very secure, she loved her "jailor" or loved being in Sheffield.

https://www.historyscotland.com/history/the-imprisonment-of-mary-queen-of-scots-in-sheffield-1570-1584-mary/

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_Manor_Lodge

Why didn't we make Manor Lodge a selling point for the tourist trail long before? Some places she stayed a night reputedly and its been in their Advertising for years. 

Again we didn't shout loud enough, are we so backward at coming forward we prefer to talk down the City instead of talking it up. 

I was always encouraged to make the most of what you do have. 

 

[History dude]

15 hours ago, Ponytail said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_Manor_Lodge

Why didn't we make Manor Lodge a selling point for the tourist trail long before? Some places she stayed a night reputedly and its been in their Advertising for years. 

Again we didn't shout loud enough, are we so backward at coming forward we prefer to talk down the City instead of talking it up. 

I was always encouraged to make the most of what you do have. 

 

You can put that down to Socialists on the Labour controlled Council.  The site is still held by the Duke of Norfolk, it's just on a long lease to the Council. The Duke wasn't bothered with it. And when it was put to the Labour people - they said get the money off the Duke! 

It wasn't till NEW Labour started adopting more right wing polices did the present site got the uplift. Thanks to English Heritage who only deal with "Friends" groups who make tea parties etc - they won't deal with a Friend Group if it wants to run the project. So the current Friends Group doesn't do that. Green Estate do that instead. A kind of none profit making, but at the same time a profit making company.  

Plus all the rubbish about having funding from several sources - often called Match Funding. 

[Lysanderix]

I recall, years ago, that the Council had a couple of folk dressed In period .costume who did the rounds publicising Sheffield and it’s connection with Mary Queen of Scots and her time spent here.

[History dude]

2 hours ago, Lysanderix said:

I recall, years ago, that the Council had a couple of folk dressed In period .costume who did the rounds publicising Sheffield and it’s connection with Mary Queen of Scots and her time spent here.

That would have been Keith Cheetham, he was the publicity officer on the Council a few years ago. He later wrote a very good book called "On the Trail of Mary Queen of Scots", which you can still get hold of. 

[tozzin]

Forgive me if I’ve posted this before but when the tourist information was open on Surrey Street, I called in to have a look round, there was quite a few information and advertising leaflets of things to see outside Sheffield but not a single one about the things to see in Sheffield, I asked the assistant why this was and his reply “it’s nothing to do with me” it’s whichever body that ran who decides what leaflets are or were displayed.

[Ponytail]

I concur Tozzin, I used to call in at least once a month over a number of years. On several occasions overheard conversations with Tourists asking where else there was to see. They'd "done" the Galleries & Museums. I always felt embarrassed at the look of disappointment on the Tourists faces, the staff were probably used to giving their replies. 

At that time Manor Lodge hadn't had the restoration and wasn't open to the public, so was never mentioned, other "attractions" had limited opening. 

If the organisation/event didn't go into the Tourist Information or Local Studies with the leaflets then public wouldn't get the information.

Yes it's different now with websites, where everyone is referred to. 

A tour guide used to start his tours from Tourist Information but I only ever saw a hand full people turning up. Maybe, I hope more came later. 

I used to enjoy Environment Weeks when knowledgeable people led the tour of their particular field of expertise. 

 

[tozzin]

6 minutes ago, Ponytail said:

I concur Tozzin, I used to call in at least once a month over a number of years. On several occasions overheard conversations with Tourists asking where else there was to see. They'd "done" the Galleries & Museums. I always felt embarrassed at the look of disappointment on the Tourists faces, the staff were probably used to giving their replies. 

At that time Manor Lodge hadn't had the restoration and wasn't open to the public, so was never mentioned, other "attractions" had limited opening. 

If the organisation/event didn't go into the Tourist Information or Local Studies with the leaflets then public wouldn't get the information.

Yes it's different now with websites, where everyone is referred to. 

A tour guide used to start his tours from Tourist Information but I only ever saw a hand full people turning up. Maybe, I hope more came later. 

I used to enjoy Environment Weeks when knowledgeable people led the tour of their particular field of expertise. 

 

They use to have some kind of Heritage week or day at David Mellors in Hathersage, showing how cutlery is made, problem was they don’t know how to make cutlery correctly, I’ve seen an operative take eight hours to serrate six knives and re-satin finish them, those two operations should take 30 minutes tops, I’ve seen terrible mistakes being made there, gouges out of Silver plated handles on knives but because it had David Mellor name on the blade people foolishly bought it, no production item was costed out.

[History dude]

Apart from an Heritage open day that many historic sites in Sheffield take part in, which only happens once a year. Many heritage sites simply do things themselves. They advertise them, produce any leaflets. putting them in places where they think people who are interested go.  I know from trying to do it, that getting heritage groups - or any group to work together with others, even on an irregular meeting basis, is hard to do.  It was like the Norfolk Heritage Trail, which linked up several sites and linked back to the City Centre. The group that formed it was a real mix, including people who were not part of the known groups, but had a desire to get the trail off the ground. Unfortunately once everything was put in place, one body wanted to control the operation. And used things like health and safety and public liability to enforce guided walks. Which they did and started making charges for taking these walks. Any "guide" had to be covered in case of accident, which meant they had to be tested and covered by the "sponsoring" organisation.  On one occasion a publicity event for the walk which took place in Fargate, was discussed in a meeting. The main sponsor organisation for the event, told the none connected members that they couldn't attend the event, because the none connected members were not covered by public liability insurance. It wasn't till the Council's Park Rangers, said they would cover them, could they even go to the event. The look on the faces of that "Organisation" told you it all.  In the end they got around it by simply running N.H.T themselves and not calling any further meetings of the original group. 

Many places these days use online forums and the social media to get a message out about events taking place, or cancelled.  Some do charge a reasonable amount to attend these events, a few quid. But some don't. And when you are talking £10 to listen to a talk by some well known TV historian. Such projects I wouldn't give the time of day to.