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History dude

Sheffield Castle Redevelopment

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The other day I saw the artist's impressions of the Castle redevelopment on Look North.

They also said that some of the money being contributed was going to the Town Hall.

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_97137591_castlegateartist'simpression.jpg

 

Anyone got any ideas where they're going to get the castle bit from?

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I should think an archaeological dig will expose some features which, hopefully, will be preserved and probably surrounded by grass or gravel borders. the local press carried the usual  comments column with much criticism...mind you, the usual suspects are critical of anything SCC proposes. Personally, I hope it comes off...but at my age it's as likely as my seeing HS2!

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I hope this happens soon, it will be such an amazing site for Sheffield, only with parts of the castle exposed. Everyone loves castles and history.

Sheffield needs to sell its history more.

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As a  sometime history lecturer I remember how difficult it was convincing some students that Sheffield really did have some history...especially from those coming from Doncaster with its Roman beginnings.

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You should have asked them where did they think Templebourgh got it's name from?

There were lots of people even in Sheffield, especially on Sheffield Council during the 1980's that thought Sheffield only started with the Industrial Revolution. If you encounter any that still think that, tell them that there was NO Industrial Revolution, as that is a term invented by historians well after the event. In the same way as historians invented the term "Dark Ages".  

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The only problem with that is Templeborough is in Rotherham...( see Wikepedia.org/wiki/Templeborough) The term "industrial revolution" recognises the change from cottage style production methods , with its emphasis on small scale production, to mass production in factories designed for the purpose...Of course, at the time, people didn't generally recognise that it was a "revolution" ,just as those in the Dark Ages didn't go around saying, "We are in the Dark Ages". They are terms of convenience used by historians...as are "Stone age", Bronze age" etc. to describe large changes in society/economics/finance/discoveries etc ( the creation of the Bank of England in 1694 was an important factor in enabling the "revolution" ,as was the "Agrarian Revolution"( Turnip Townsend et als) which allowed for greater production of foodstuffs to feed the emerging industrial cities with its vast demands for labour .

Are we living in the "electronics revolution" ,one wonders, or is there another term which encompasses the MASSIVE changes we have had since 1945?:unsure:

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Historians like to compartmentalise everything. The problem with this approach is when it comes to predicting the future. There was a TV show on recently that talked about the future of the car. With computers controlling them, the driverless car!  However it is following on with the idea that A leads to B which leads to C. I can visualise a system where cars and motor vehicles would be obsolete,  therefore would not need to be driverless. The car for example is a waste of space. Most of the time they sit around doing nothing. Why would you want to build more and more roads all over the country? 

My own term for what has happened to us since 1945 is the "education culture". Though it probably more or less relates to when the Education Act came in. For that fundamental changed how young people developed into adults. And it was not in the way it was intended. For what happened was the introduction of compulsory education for anyone past the age of 14 and taking it to 18, meant that we interfered with the natural development of human beings. The education itself was not important and could have been achieved without keeping kids in school. But what we did and are still doing is preventing young people from mixing with a wide range of ages and people, just as the puberty process hits them. During this time the kids pick up social skills and development from mixing away from their parents with other people. However in a school it's done in a limited age range. For most kids are in school with their own age range. And what do they know about the world? The schools try to teach them, but most kids do not listen to the formal education. In any case most of it is theory, probably taught by one adult, who's only experience of the world is from education establishments. And grew up with the same distorted views as the kids they are now teaching. It's little surprise then that the education culture has developed "nerds" that can get electronics to do fantastic things. But for every positive side effect of the education culture there are ten times the negative. Back in the 60's for example all the drug taking in the UK could be tracked down to one doctor's surgery in London. Thanks to the education culture it's now all over the country. In fact many historians will tell you that whatever trend it is, such as "bing drinking" it can be found sometime in the past. But in reality each one was an isolated thing, very small scale. Not the common problems we face today. I put the entire lot down to sending kids to school after the age of 13.       

Sorry going a bit off topic there!

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An interesting notion...with Biblical parallels...after all, Man fell from grace ( and started all of his troubles) when, encouraged by Eve he ate of the forbidden fruit of knowledge....and that goes back a few more millennia than the introduction of universal education. I also think you are a little  off the mark with your assertions about drugs misuse. Drugs were widely available until the end of WW1being unregulated ,with many household remedies containing opiates...such as "Laudanum". Drugs could be bought  across the counter from barbers and all manner of traders. The1868 Pharmacy Act began regulation, limiting sales to pharmacists and druggists: drug addicts/users included Bramwell Bronte, Lord Byron, Charles Dickens and John Keats...Even Queen Victoria is said to have used a tincture of marijuana to ease her period pain. Post WW1, with soldiers returning home, some of whom had used drugs whilst abroad,  was the reason to begin strict regulation now that the adverse affects of addiction had become clear. Several doctors in 1960's Britain overprescribed drugs...many of which came into the drugs misuse system....but did not cause it! I think drug/substance misuse  has many causes...universal education being the least of them.

Not much of the above has anything to do with Sheffield Castle...but without education how many would know it ever existed  or how it came to be destroyed, I wonder?

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On 8/2/2017 at 20:53, Thorntons girl said:

Sheffield needs to sell its history more.

That would be a novel concept for this council. First of all, of course, they'd have to undemolish 99% of it.

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4 hours ago, Oldbloke said:

That would be a novel concept for this council. First of all, of course, they'd have to undemolish 99% of it.

If they do it like what they have done to Manor Lodge then you will have to pay £3 to get in and it will be only open at the weekends. But at least the kids can play in a sandpit in the ruins.

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Remind me who has been responsible for upgrading Manor Lodge...is it Sheffield Council or the not for profit Green Spaces Initiative?

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3 hours ago, History dude said:

If they do it like what they have done to Manor Lodge then you will have to pay £3 to get in and it will be only open at the weekends. But at least the kids can play in a sandpit in the ruins.

Manor Lodge is a wonderful asset to Sheffield, it is about time the volunteers who run it get recognition for their hard work in keeping the attraction open.

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2 hours ago, Thorntons girl said:

Manor Lodge is a wonderful asset to Sheffield, it is about time the volunteers who run it get recognition for their hard work in keeping the attraction open.

When I helped start the friends of the Manor Lodge there was NEVER any intention to charge for visiting the site. Then Green Estate got their hands all over it and have started to charge to go and see it.

Many of the Friends group volunteers quit when they were told by English Heritage that they could NOT run the Manor Lodge site, because "Friends Groups do NOT run Heritage sites," in the words of English Heritage. They told the group that a proper management body had to be responsible, or at least that is what their current chairman told me. Green Estates got the job. They employ paid people to look after the site. Any volunteers have to meet their standards and do what Green Estate say or they can't take part, due to health and safety rules. They do train such volunteers. But a lot of the original volunteers didn't like the rules and left.

I was also one of the people that helped set up the Norfolk Heritage trail. This was supposed to be cross group and individual's of all the history groups and projects the trail covered. It was never intended to be run by one group or project. But Green Estate interfered with it constantly. The first thing they wanted to do was do walks on a fee paying basis. Purely to make money. One time a publicity day was held in Sheffield City Centre and Green Estate tried to block me from attending and others too. Due to some silly rule about health and safety! However the Park Rangers covered anyone they couldn't or did not want to instead, so I could go. Much to the discuss of the Green Estate person then in charge. 

However Green Estate eventually got their way and the Heritage Trail committee has not met in years, to my knowledge anyway. And any walks now taking place are charged for.   

The current state of Sheffield Manor Lodge site is a great disappoint to me from being chairperson of it all those years ago. That is now a good example of how NOT to run a heritage site. Friends of Sheffield Castle people take note. 

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Thanks for that illuminating response....I didn't think SCC was directly involved. The use of 'Elf n safety rules is often the "refuge" of administrations that don't want others involved.

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The council did have representatives on all the projects involved in Manor Lodge. The site is after all on a long lease to the Council. Green Estates came out of the Manor and Castle Development Trust. It was their "green" wing so to speak. In the early days Richard Foster at that the Development Officer for that area was active in the project. I should imagine still that a Council officer or a councillor(s) sit on the Green Estate board. 

 

I think Green Estate's influence on the site is apparent. Especially when flower beds were directly incorporated in the house ruins!  

Can you imagine any other historic site having a flower bed placed in an important spot, such as they did with the main chimney area?    

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Went along with my wife to visit Manor Lodge a couple of weeks ago `well worth a visit` second time in over 50 years for me, the last time was in 67 when i was doing some plumbing work for J Stead on Manor Lane, had a walk up to the Lodge one lunchtime, not as prominent those days! "the flowers look OK to me History Dude"

After our visit  we walked down the fields behind Manor Lodge for some lunch at the Rubarb Cafe (nice food) ,  some terrific views over Sheffield from behind the animal enclosures!

Behind the animal enclosures, the field slopes down towards a couple of old cottages, there`s a ditch down one side and a bog pond planted with bullrushes etc, obviosly the pond was created recently!  I was told you can vist these 40s themed cottages and to look out for the open days.

Out of interest did any one play in this field when a youngster and remember what it was like 60 or 70 years ago.? Who lived in the cottages (was it a farm etc)?

 

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