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Adrian Mannion

Bernard Mannion, Dowgreen

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Hi everyone, my first post on the forum and wondering if anyone can help me find my great grand father Bernard Mannion.

A bit of background, I have taken over the family tree from my late father Kenneth and we have have lived in Derby all our lives. My dad researched most of the tree before the days of computers etc. He did a fantastic job. But we have always been stuck on Bernard.

The story goes:

Dad's research placed Bernard as being from Galway in Ireland. He got his information from the memory of his uncle Albert. Although I can find no evidence at all to confirm Bernard was from Galway.

However Bernard appears in both the 1901 and 1911 census and in both he states he was born in Dowgreen, Sheffield Yorkshire. His birth being in 1863 and died in Derby in 1913.

In 1901 he was living in Burnham On Sea, Somerset and in 1911 living in Derby, both related to working for the railways.

I can not find him listed in any census pre-1901 on Ancestry,co.uk and other sites. Also I am struggling to find any reference to Dowgreen anywhere except in the copies of the 1901/1911 census.

He married in Sheffield in 1891 to Lucy Willis who was from Somerset.

However I have found a Bernard Mannion in 1891 listed as a lodger in Eckington, and on the census he says born in Ireland. Could this be the same person and could he have lodging prior to his wedding. Could he have been living with a sister?

I have attached a screen shot of him as a lodger

thank you for your time and any possible help would be very much appreciated

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Could Dowgreen be a misinterpretation of Dore Green ?

(Dore is/was a village on the outskirts of Sheffield)

Farmers and Acreage - 1871
Submitted by Dore Village Society on Fri, 04/03/2011 - 5:56pm

Underlined farmers show other occupations.
William Andrew Dore Lane 46 acres
Samuel Ashby White Low 18 acres
John Barker Abbeydale 20 acres
Joseph Bishop White Low 28 acres
Sarah Bishop Wagg House 12 acres
William Cowlishaw Long Line 33 acres
William Farnsworth Cliff Cottage 55 acres
Joseph Fletcher Green Lane 12 acres
John Flint Farm House 40 acres
Joseph Flint West Rushley 78 acres
George Frith Dore Lane 3 acres
William Frith Dore Green 18 acres

Source: http://www.dorevillage.co.uk/node/142

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Although I find a few mentions of it, I'm struggling to find exactly where in Dore, "Dore Green" is.

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This may be a complete red herring, but off Greystones Road there used to be a Dove Lane, with a row of cottages called Dove Houses . This place is mentioned in Tatton's notebooks, and I have a recollection, though I may well be wrong, that he refers to a Dove Green as well. According to Picture Sheffield the houses were demolished in the early 1900's.

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I have checked both the 1901 Census and the 1911 one on Ancestry. The 1901 does not mention "Dowgreen" it simply states "Sheffield". But the 1901 Census was filled in by an enumerator, whereas the 1911 was completed by Bernard himself. Incidentally the 1911 doesn't say "Sheffield" just the disputed word and Yorkshire.

In all other Census the place where a person was born can be disputed. Users on here will remember the tale of John Appleyard from Wakefield in every other census, but appearing on the 1881 as from Ireland!

But since Bernard filled out this form for 1911, he is either telling the truth and the place he was born is just hard to make out. Or he was not telling the truth and lied about where he came from. So a made up name for the place could be possible. As with all facts just because one document says Sheffield, that doesn't mean that the following one adds extra information.

Adrian also asked if the Bernard from Ireland could be the same man. But if Bernard is telling the truth that he was born in Yorkshire, that man could not be him. However if Bernard was not telling the truth and he was born in Ireland, then it could well be him. Especially if his Sister is the same age. That would be a clue.

The question appears to be in the 1911 Census was Bernard telling the truth about where he was born or not? I can think of a couple of reasons why he might not have wanted people to know he was from Ireland. One being he wasn't proud of being Irish, plus at that time being Irish could have caused him trouble with the Irish troubles at the time of the census. The other reason that he had to get out of Ireland for some reason and could have been in trouble with the authorities if they knew who he really was.

Since the 1911 was in his hand I will post it on here for those to compare the words of "Dowgreen" with his other letters. It might not the "owg" bit and might make sense if we know what he does write.

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Here's a couple of possible sightings...

1891 Bernard Mannion on Eckington (coal bank labourer, lodging at Gosher Street) - birthplace "Ireland"

And 1881 Bernard Mannion (I don't think it's Munnion) - a labourer in Liverpool with his Irish mum, Mary - birthplace "Liverpool".

I think that quite a few Irish immigrants gave Liverpool as their birthpace, especially if they arrived as a "babe-in-arms". And I'd guess when he was in Somerset, giving an Irish origin would be less beneficial than when in Liverpool, Manchester or Sheffield where there were substantial Irish communities.

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There is a "Daw Green" in Dewsbury.

This thread at Rootschat discusses its location:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=477050.0

...and includes this:

Daw Green was a area consisting of about 4 streets in westown if you look on the google may of westown it was between vulcan road and and vulcan close, Webster street was part of the Daw green area.

The Daw green area was prodominantly made up of Irish folk that came over to get work in the mills in the mid to late 1800s.

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What a fantastic response from you all. I am totally overwhelmed. Thank you to everyone. Your comments seem to fit very much that he may have lied about his birthplace. I can not find a Dow Green anywhere. I am a sorter at Royal Mail of 33 years and have never come across a Dow Green.

Bernard Mannion married Lucy Willis in Sheffield in 1891, and as Edmund kindly posted above there was a Bernard Mannion lodging in Eckington. The people he was lodging with were Irish as far as I can tell.

I would presume he was lodging with his sister Maria Shiel before he married. Could it be possible that his family did approve of Lucy as she was not Irish.

The Sheffield connection threw me as I was concentrating on him being from there pre 1900. It could very much be possible he was in Liverpool at one point. He was a labourer all his life as far as I know.

My cousin found his grave this week in a cemetery in Derby. The grave includes.

Bernard Mannion, died Nov 6th 1913 50yrs,

Bernard Mannion (son) died Jan 9 1917 22yrs

Lucy Mannion (wife) Died Aug 21 1946 81yrs

Ellan (?) Died Jan 16 1957 64 yrs.

The grave has no headstone. It was owned by Lucy and has space for one more.

Joseph who was Bernards son wanted to buried with hi but for some reason his wife purchased another plot nearby.

I do know that Joseph (my grandad) was catholic and because he married Aseneth who Salvation Army the family dissowned him. Could a similar thing have happened to Bernard?

I really appreciate everyones response. It really has been a great help and may well have opened up a few more doors for me

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Just having a look back through my research and I found this, which could be interesting and showing he married at St Vincent of St Pauls, Sheffield and he could very well have been in the Irish/British Army:

I have copied my research below:

Trying to make sense of what we have found so far from my Dads record.

John Mannion lived in Galway Bay. Two sons Bernard born 1863 possibly Galway Bay, and Thomas possibly born Galway Bay.

The two sons emigrated to England in 1884 during the potato famine.

Bernard Mannion:

Information obtained from a Discharge paper of Pte Bernard Mannion obtained by my Dad:

2nd Battilion the Connaught Rangers, discharged 1st August 1891 after 12 years service at the age of 32 years 8 months.

Age 32.8 years / 12 years service. Height 5ft 7 inches

Complexion Fresh. Eyes Grey, Hair Brown, Trade Labourer

Marks or scars on face on body, none.

This is where it is confusing. According to Bernards marriage certificate, he was married in 1891 and 28 years old at that time. If he was discharged from the Army in 1891 after 12 years service he must have joined the Army at the age of 16, but stated his age as 20 years and 8 months.

However according to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connaught_Rangers the regiment is an Irish regiment under the control of the United Kingdom. The text below would confirm Bernard migrated to England with his regiment.

_________________

It was one of eight Irish regiments raised largely in Ireland, with its home depot in Galway.[1] Militarily, the whole of Ireland was administered as a separate command within the United Kingdom with Command Headquarters at Parkgate (Phoenix Park) in Dublin, directly under the War Office in London.[2] The regiment recruited mainly in the province of Connacht.

"The Connaught Rangers" by Richard Simkin (1840–1926)

The 88th were based in Bengal, British India, when they were amalgamated into the new regiment having deployed to India in 1879. The 94th were also abroad when they became the 2nd Battalion. They had deployed from Armagh to South Africa in 1877, where they had taken part in the Zulu War and in 1880 the first Boer War where in January 1881 Lance-Corporal James Murray of the regiment won a Victoria Cross. Private Fitzpatrick and Private Danagher of the 94th also won the VC in South Africa. Major Hans Garret Moore won the VC with the 88th during the Zulu War. In total the Regiment won four Victoria Crosses between 1877 and 1881.

The 2nd Battalion returned home the following year when they were stationed in Ireland and in 1887 moved to England. The new 2nd Battalion sent a small detachment on the Gordon Relief Expedition in 1884 as Camel Mounted Infantry.

In 1889 the 2nd Battalion deployed to Malta. The 1st Battalion departed India in 1890 for Aden and returned home in 1891. In 1892 the 2nd Battalion remained in the Mediterranean and deployed to Cyprus and then in 1895 to Egypt. The following year the 2nd Battalion, as well as the machine-gun section of the 1st Battalion, deployed to the Sudan as part of the Dongola Expeditionary Force under the command of Lord Kitchener as part of the reconquest of the Sudan.

The 2nd Battalion departed for India the following year, while the 1st Battalion deployed to Ireland. In 1899 the 2nd Battalion deployed to Malta.

I have sent an email to connaughtrangers.co.uk asking to check there records.

We have a copy of Bernards Marriage Certificate dated 23rd November 1891. At St Vincent of Pauls, Roman Catholic Church, Sheffield, Yorkshire.

Bernard Mannion, 28 years, Steel Worker, Resident of Stocksbridge, Fathers name John Mannion

Lucy Willis, 27 years, Domestic Servant, Resident of Underbank, Fathers name Thomas Willis.

Death Certificate for Bernard Mannion:

31st October 1913 at 37 Northumberland Street Derby, Age 50 years, A Railway Labourer, Tuburcular Laryngitis.

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Hi Adrian,

Did you get any further with your search? I too have been researching my family tree and have come across the same ‘stumbling block’ 

Bernard is my Great Great Grand father! 

Best wishes 

Amy 

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Is there a John & Vincent Mannion in your family tree?

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