roy1942 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 can anyone give me the exact location of the pub on the ordnance survey map, according to the 1891 census my great grand father kept it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveHB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 can anyone give me the exact location of the pub on the ordnance survey map, according to the 1891 census my great grand father kept it From what I can work out, it was near the corner of Headford Street. 1903 Here is an approximate location .. Flash Earth Edit: Taking another look, it could have been next door on the corner of Headford Street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I would be obliged to know the name of your great grand father if possible, I only have Edward Taylor (1871) and I see Ukelele Lady has added John Sanderson in 1859, so a 1891 would be a great addition. Thanks in advance. can anyone give me the exact location of the pub on the ordnance survey map, according to the 1891 census my great grand father kept it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveHB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I would be obliged to know the name of your great grand father if possible, I only have Edward Taylor (1871) and I see Ukelele Lady has added John Sanderson in 1859, so a 1891 would be a great addition. Thanks in advance. 1901 White's has a Thos. Isac Simpson (beerhouse) 61 Bath Street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveHB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 1890 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Ta muchly. 1901 White's has a Thos. Isac Simpson (beerhouse) 61 Bath Street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 1891 Issac T Simpson 1901 White's has a Thos. Isac Simpson (beerhouse) 61 Bath Street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 1881 Issac T Simpson - nothing to do with anything - just because. 1901 White's has a Thos. Isac Simpson (beerhouse) 61 Bath Street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roy1942 Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 thanks everyone,for your input i got a 1963 ordnance survey map from local studies but only shows the even numbers.my great grandfather was henry guest & wife ann plus kids thats according to the 1891 census Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thanks, failing to find him just now, How old was he in 1891 please ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roy1942 Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 he was 44years old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thank you. Hopefully we'll get the image, failing miserably just now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukelele lady Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 thanks everyone,for your input i got a 1963 ordnance survey map from local studies but only shows the even numbers.my great grandfather was henry guest & wife ann plus kids thats according to the 1891 census I remember putting a Henry Guest on a pub other than the Butcher's but which pub now I don't recall. If I come across it again I will post it on, It might be your great grandfather who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukelele lady Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I don't know if this will mean anything to you . The Sovereign 118 Portobello Street & 70 Rockingham Street 1887 to 1893 Henry Guest victualler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveHB Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 thanks everyone,for your input i got a 1963 ordnance survey map from local studies but only shows the even numbers.my great grandfather was henry guest & wife ann plus kids thats according to the 1891 census You could have taken a look on the 1952 OS map available on here .. the layout of the corner of Headford Street varies when compared with the earlier maps above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mtbi Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 According to a marriage certificate of my great grandmother, her father listed this pub as his business and residence in 1888. I'm keen to know more about this pub but it appears the entire road has today been destroyed. Anyone help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmund Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Some bits of unconnected information, the Butcher's Arms through the ages: 1862 Mr P Carr offering a prize for running race at Hyde Park: Philip Carr is there in 1854, I think you had to be there to understand his complaints... 1868 - not sure if James Ward was the licensee or just a passing mangold wurzel vendor: 1891 William Guest, Iron Founder's Labourer and Public House Keeper: 1901 Isaac Thomas Simpson, Beerhouse keeper: 1911 Frank Wright Turtle, Beer House Keeper: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Given your map and the following from SheffieldRecordsOnline there is a possibility that the Butchers and the Dog & Gun on Headford Street are one and the same place ... Frank Turtle, Beerhouse, 61 Bath Street (1911, as per the Census image) Frank Turtle, victualler Dog & Gun, 18 Headford Street (1919) From what I can work out, it was near the corner of Headford Street. 1903 Here is an approximate location .. Flash Earth Edit: Taking another look, it could have been next door on the corner of Headford Street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmund Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 The Dog & Gun and the Butchers Arms were definitely two separate establishments, with Frank Turtle moving from the Butchers to the Dog & Gun sometime between 1911 and 1916. Maps to show the locations - Dog & Gun in 1890 and 61 Bath Street in the 1950s: At the 1911 census, Frank Turtle was at 61 Bath street ( Beerhouse, no name on the census form) whilst Robert Johnson was at 18 Headford Street (wire drawer on census form, no mention of public house): But the enumerator in 1911 was a good lad, who completed his summary sheet including the names of the pubs, where the occupants didn't think them worthy of inclusion: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 As conclusive and well proven as possible. Many Thanks. The Dog & Gun and the Butchers Arms were definitely two separate establishments, with Frank Turtle moving from the Butchers to the Dog & Gun sometime between 1911 and 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukelele lady Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Butchers Arms updated, thank you Edmund. We did have Richard Johnson at the Dog & Gun Headford Street on the A to Z from 1910 to 1913. We also had Frank Turtle 1919 to 1924. It looks like Frank must have died and his widow Kate took over up until at least 1929. In 1931 to 1933 we have a Mrs Kate Cotterill , did she remarry ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmund Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Frank W Turtle died Jul/Aug/Sep 1922 aged 44, his widow Kate was then remarried to William A Cotterill in Apr/May/Jun 1930. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukelele lady Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Frank W Turtle died Jul/Aug/Sep 1922 aged 44, his widow Kate was then remarried to William A Cotterill in Apr/May/Jun 1930. Frank Turtle was still down in the directories up until 1924, I wonder if it could have been his son? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmund Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 There was a Frank Edmund Turtle in Sheffield, but I can't find any relationship to Frank at the Butchers / Dog & Gun. Frank was an ex Fish Frier by the way, but his family seem to have come from Ollerton via Wakefield. With a name like Turtle, they were probably related in the not too distant past. More likely Kate left the licence in Frank's name for a couple of years after his death? Not sure what sort of checking up the magistrates would have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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