Kids And Gas-Masks

[RichardB]

The subject of many evocative photos, were masks issued in both wars ? What was the real level of risk from gas ?

[DaveH]

The subject of many evocative photos, were masks issued in both wars ? What was the real level of risk from gas ?

If it is kids in gas masks then we must be talking about gas being used against a civilian population, - for example if Britain had been invaded.

In WWI gas was used to lethal effect on the battlefields, mainly in an attempt to break the stalemate situation created by trench warfare, - but it was not used deliberately against civilians even in France and Belgium where gas was used most. So I suspect the risk of it being used had Britain been invaded by more than just a few Zeppelin air raids was low.

In WW2 we were well prepared, through the general issue of gas masks, for a gas attack. The use of gas in WW2 seems to have been restricted to its use in mass genocide in the concentration camps and not used as an offensive weapon at all, so if anything the risk from gas was even lower.

[DaveH]

The subject of many evocative photos, were masks issued in both wars ? What was the real level of risk from gas ?

Being a chemist I have one

Using a fume cupboard in a lab it is far from essential and it would be safe to use most gases without it.

Mine is a 1970 "Porton Down" model (named after the MOD nerve gas research establishment in Dorset) with the activated charcoal filter on the side and the exhale valve in front.

The original filters were on an asbestos support which was probably just as dangerous as the gas it was trying to protect you from, but by the 1970's they were moving away from this to other filters. The filters are screwed into the mask and are detachable so that they can be replaced when they become saturated with toxic gases.

Those built in goggles which protected your eyes were a bit of a bind. As you were breathing behind them they always used to mist up on the inside and I had some special liquid to try and prevent this happening. Ordinary washing up liquid was nearly as good and photographic wetting agent was actually better than the official stuff.

My real problem was all that long hair and a beard which I had at the time (but I haven't had since a few months after this picture was taken in 1976). The hair prevented the outer rubber part of the mask forming a gas tight seal to the face, so reducing its efficiency and effectiveness should it ever have had to be used in an emergency. I don't suppose they ever told anyone that you had to be clean shaven with shortish hair for it to work properly did they?

[Theoldlamplighter]

I have a vague recollection of having a Micky Mouse gas mask in 1944, I certainly remember the shelter in the back yard and the sound of the sirens going off. For some reason we did not always go into the shelter.

[THYLACINE]

Service Respirator according to Capt. Mainwaring. And who would argue with him?

[mick851]

Did all ww2 gas masks have asbestos filters, the one Ive got is a 1940 mask and a 1941 filter thats says on the top,

BAP.RINGER WALLIS & ??????? LTD

MAKERS

MANSFIELD

BU 7 \8\41

AT

then on the bottom of the canister it says,

NO 4

B.W.&M.L LTD

1941

U5

EVI

[hilldweller]

Being a chemist I have one

Using a fume cupboard in a lab it is far from essential and it would be safe to use most gases without it.

Mine is a 1970 "Porton Down" model (named after the MOD nerve gas research establishment in Dorset) with the activated charcoal filter on the side and the exhale valve in front.

The original filters were on an asbestos support which was probably just as dangerous as the gas it was trying to protect you from, but by the 1970's they were moving away from this to other filters. The filters are screwed into the mask and are detachable so that they can be replaced when they become saturated with toxic gases.

Those built in goggles which protected your eyes were a bit of a bind. As you were breathing behind them they always used to mist up on the inside and I had some special liquid to try and prevent this happening. Ordinary washing up liquid was nearly as good and photographic wetting agent was actually better than the official stuff.

My real problem was all that long hair and a beard which I had at the time (but I haven't had since a few months after this picture was taken in 1976). The hair prevented the outer rubber part of the mask forming a gas tight seal to the face, so reducing its efficiency and effectiveness should it ever have had to be used in an emergency. I don't suppose they ever told anyone that you had to be clean shaven with shortish hair for it to work properly did they?

One of my responsibilities as a Process Control Engineer at a north Sheffield district steelworks was a large vertical tank full of cyanide salts solution.

It was fitted with a contents gauge with a magnetic coupling between the doughnut shaped magnetic float inside the tank and a magnet in a sealed vertical tube.

Every so often the float would be rotted away and sink.

As engineer in charge I used to have to don breathing apparatus, climb on top of the tank, and remove a cover to change the float. The wet dripping tube had to be fully withdrawn in order to fit the float around it.

I used to make damn sure the facemask was a very good fit, and that my protective gear was in pristine condition, and I washed my hands very well after that job. The thing I most remember about the job was the horrible noise in your ears from the air demand valve.

[DaveH]

Did all ww2 gas masks have asbestos filters, the one Ive got is a 1940 mask and a 1941 filter thats says on the top,

BAP.RINGER WALLIS & ??????? LTD

MAKERS

MANSFIELD

BU 7 \8\41

AT

then on the bottom of the canister it says,

NO 4

B.W.&M.L LTD

1941

U5

EVI

Not too sure about that mick851, those markings don't seem to mean a lot in terms of what its made of, it just gives a manufacturer and some MoD cade numbers.

As I understood it asbestosis and the dangers of loose asbestos fibres were only fully realised in the late 1960's after 2 clusters of high incidences of the disease, one near Bolton, Lancashire and another at Poole, Dorset was connected to people who had worked in these areas in the late 1930's and 1940's making loose asbestos fibre filters for wartime civilian gas masks in factories in these localities. Note that it took about 30 years from working with it to the disease being a serious problem ultimatelt proving fatal. This is typical of asbestosis, a sort of hidden timebomb of an illness.

As your filter was made in Mansfield, Nottinghamshire by a manufacturer other than those in Bolton and Poole it may or may not contain asbestos.

Note that the asbestos is not the active absorbent it is only the support, the absorbent is activated charcoal. However to be effective at absorbing gases it needs to have a very large surface area to absorb gas on so the charcoal is very finely powdered. To keep the powder in the filter as gas is drawn through it some sort of support, also with a maximised surface area was needed and at the time loose asbestos fibres were considered ideal for this.

[DaveH]

One of my responsibilities as a Process Control Engineer at a north Sheffield district steelworks was a large vertical tank full of cyanide salts solution. It was fitted with a contents gauge with a magnetic coupling between the doughnut shaped magnetic float inside the tank and a magnet in a sealed vertical tube. Every so often the float would be rotted away and sink. As engineer in charge I used to have to don breathing apparatus, climb on top of the tank, and remove a cover to change the float. The wet dripping tube had to be fully withdrawn in order to fit the float around it. I used to make damn sure the facemask was a very good fit, and that my protective gear was in pristine condition, and I washed my hands very well after that job. The thing I most remember about the job was the horrible noise in your ears from the air demand valve.

Cyanides are particularly nasty if they are acidified when they give off hydrogen cyanide gas which is extremely toxic. The solution of cyanide salts themselves are OK unless you injest or absorb even a fairly small quantity of it. The secret to handling them relatively safely is good pH control, keeping the pH on the alkali side of neutral to avoid the gas. However, no one with any sense would go near it without protective clothing, gloves, goggles and a gas mask and also a solution of ferrous sulphate (iron (II) sulphate) to be administered as an "antidote" to any cyanide poisoning.

[jmdee]

I would imagine the masks were provided to protect against the ill effects of the domestic gas supply in case of a broken line, as opposed to intentional gassing by chemicals.

The subject of many evocative photos, were masks issued in both wars ? What was the real level of risk from gas ?

[RichardB]

Good point, one well placed bomb would give rise to many a fractured gas line with potentially disasterous results.

I would imagine the masks were provided to protect against the ill effects of the domestic gas supply in case of a broken line, as opposed to intentional gassing by chemicals.

[hilldweller]

Good point, one well placed bomb would give rise to many a fractured gas line with potentially disasterous results.

I'm not sure that the masks would have been particularly useful against town gas which was mainly a mixture of Hydrogen and the, very toxic in small concentrations, Carbon Monoxide.

I think that the possibility of dropping bombs filled with a poison-gas liquid was actively considered by both sides as an last gasp measure. The british had to dispose of large quantities of poison gas bombs after the war had ended.

HD

[hilldweller]

Good point, one well placed bomb would give rise to many a fractured gas line with potentially disasterous results.

I saw a quote once in a book about the work required to get the gas supply back on. Apparently the main problem was mud and silt washed into the mains from bomb craters which often contained broken sewers, water mains and gas pipes. Apparently some poor herberts had to crawl through a huge gas main on Neepsend Lane, shovelling the muck out as they went. I wonder what elf & safety would make of that today ?

HD

[DaveH]

I'm not sure that the masks would have been particularly useful against town gas which was mainly a mixture of Hydrogen and the, very toxic in small concentrations, Carbon Monoxide.

HD

A conventional filter of activated charcoal would not absorb (or more correctly adsorb) hydrogen as it is a pure covalent molecule of very small size. Hydrogen is not particularly toxic, it is it's flammability and explosive reaction with oxygen which is the biggest problem. However, hydrogen is easily adsorbed by certain transition metals which have been treated to make them porous and have a large surface area. The 2 best ones are preparations known as Raney Nickel and Platinum black. This would remove hydrogen, but nickel and platinum come at a high cost.

As carbon monoxide is a polar covalent molecule it would be adsorbed by a conventional charcoal filter so a simple gas mask would offer protection against it, and as stated it is very poisonous.

[Waterside Echo]

Everyone in Britain was given a gas mask, a horrible smelly thing with little glass windows that soon steamed up. There were 'gas detectors' placed at street corners, these were supposed to light up if gas was in the air. They were never used. Even though there was never a gas bomb attack on Britian people reckoned gas masks were one of the great successes of the war! Why? Because Adolf Hitler knew about the gas masks. He knew it would be a waste of time to bomb people with gas when they were so well prepared, so he did not bother! Some schools held gas mask tests. The children were sent to an air-raid shelter which was then filled with 'tear gas'. Many schools were short of male teachers even though they were exempt from going to war, maybe facing enemy guns was better than facing an unruly class on a Friday afternoon. A good book, a bit tongue in cheek in places but well worth a read. W/E.

[DaveH]

I think that the possibility of dropping bombs filled with a poison-gas liquid was actively considered by both sides as an last gasp measure. The british had to dispose of large quantities of poison gas bombs after the war had ended.

HD

How fortunate it is that they didn't

Perhaps both sides had learnt something from their use in the First World War and showed a bit of restraint in the second, perhaps it was outlawed as inhumane in some convention and by chance the ruling was adhered to or perhaps both sides now that any use of it would result in a "like for like, tit for tat" retalliation which would only escallate.

Chlorine, phosgene and mustard gas used extensively in WW1 were not used at all in WW2.

Hydrogen cyanide was used in WW2, but only in the extermination camps and not as an active battlfield weapon

However, technology in "gas war" had moved on between the 2 wars so we are lucky that gas was not used.

Lethal nerve gases such as Sarin and Tabun had been developed, both by the Germans and later at Porton Down in Dorset. Capable of causing death in ridiculously small quantities, and in some cases of penetrating a gas mask filter so that there would be little protection. Some of them could also be absorbed (absorbed is the correct word this time) directly through the skin leaving little chance of any protection.

After the war canisters of nerve gases were captured in Germany, some were brought back to Britain (Porton Down again) and America for research and development (just like they did with captured V2 rockets, - and look where they got us) but the majority of them had to be disposed of. This was done by taking them on a ship out into the North sea and Baltic Sea and throwing them overboard well weighted down.

Now, if those canisters rupture, rust through or otherwise manage over time in the depths to release their contents that would be a scenario for a massive environmental disaster. The poison gas could have become a time bomb ticking away at the bottom of the sea.

[DaveH]

Many schools were short of male teachers even though they were exempt from going to war, maybe facing enemy guns was better than facing an unruly class on a Friday afternoon.

I am a male teacher and I sometimes think that teaching 11SC5 on Friday afternoon is a bit like taking on the entire Third Reich lol

[DaveH]

They were never used. Even though there was never a gas bomb attack on Britian people reckoned gas masks were one of the great successes of the war! Why? Because Adolf Hitler knew about the gas masks. He knew it would be a waste of time to bomb people with gas when they were so well prepared, so he did not bother!

Not so sure about the logic behind that.

Other countries in Europe were less prepared for a gas attack and didn't have full issue of civilian gas masks

But he didn't use gas against them either.

The secret of the "Blitzkrieg" was in its name, Blitz, = lightning, the speed at which the attacks took place.

Hitler could depend upon the Luftwaffe to bomb a country into near submission followed by sending in his armoured Panzer tank divisions before his SS stormtroopers went jack booted goose stepping their way in to take countrol.

It was a technique that worked and it is frightening how quickly some of the most powerful countries in Europe, including France were occupied.

Then of course he came up against Britain, being an island tanks and troops would find it difficult to get accros the channel and take control, so in go the Luftwaffe first, - only to come up against a small but well trained and highly determined set of young men in the RAF who, thanks to good planning and development a set of aircraft that could equal those of the Germans.

Blitzkreig even worked against the Soviet Russians at first, - but the Russians knew that with such a large country the Germans would quickly overstretch their supply lines and would have difficulty in the harsh winters.

[mick851]

How fortunate it is that they didn't

Perhaps both sides had learnt something from their use in the First World War and showed a bit of restraint in the second, perhaps it was outlawed as inhumane in some convention and by chance the ruling was adhered to or perhaps both sides now that any use of it would result in a "like for like, *** for tat" retaliation which would only escallate.

Chlorine, phosgene and mustard gas used extensively in WW1 were not used at all in WW2.

Hydrogen cyanide was used in WW2, but only in the extermination camps and not as an active battlefield weapon

However, technology in "gas war" had moved on between the 2 wars so we are lucky that gas was not used.

Lethal nerve gases such as Sarin and Tabun had been developed, both by the Germans and later at Porton Down in Dorset. Capable of causing death in ridiculously small quantities, and in some cases of penetrating a gas mask filter so that there would be little protection. Some of them could also be absorbed (absorbed is the correct word this time) directly through the skin leaving little chance of any protection.

After the war canisters of nerve gases were captured in Germany, some were brought back to Britain (Porton Down again) and America for research and development (just like they did with captured V2 rockets, - and look where they got us) but the majority of them had to be disposed of. This was done by taking them on a ship out into the North sea and Baltic Sea and throwing them overboard well weighted down.

Now, if those canisters rupture, rust through or otherwise manage over time in the depths to release their contents that would be a scenario for a MASSIVE environmental disaster. The poison gas could have become a time bomb ticking away at the bottom of the sea.

I'd heard after the first world war, about one million tons of munitions including mustard gas was dumped in the Beaufort's Dyke that's in the Irish sea.

[DaveH]

I'd heard after the first world war, tons of munitions including mustard gas was dumped in the Irish sea

That is more than likely true.

I'm pretty sure that as the stuff was so dangerous, especially if it got into the wrong hands (tyrants / dictators / terrorists etc) that they just wanted to be rid of it and wanted it where no one could get their hands on it.

So I can see why, at the time, dumping it at sea may have looked a good idea.

But really it just amounts to sweeping the dirt under the carpet doesn't it.

[mick851]

That is more than likely true.

I'm pretty sure that as the stuff was so dangerous, especially if it got into the wrong hands (tyrants / dictators / terrorists etc) that they just wanted to be rid of it and wanted it where no one could get their hands on it.

So I can see why, at the time, dumping it at sea may have looked a good idea.

But really it just amounts to sweeping the dirt under the carpet doesn't it.

Just Googled it about Beaufort's Dyke, it says they dumped munitions and small arms in there from both world wars, in 1995 a gas pipe to Scotland was laid on the sea bed......................just to the north of the dumping ground at Beaufort's Dyke!!!!!!! :unsure:

[Waterside Echo]

I am a male teacher and I sometimes think that teaching 11SC5 on Friday afternoon is a bit like taking on the entire Third Reich

It could be worse! In the war teachers in Britain had to teach larger classes with fewer materials like paper and pencils. But they were better off than some German teachers. One German child broke his arm. He couldn't give the Hitler salute. The teacher told the boy not to bother but one of the boys in the class was a Nazi spy. The teacher was reported to the Nazi party and executed! W/E.

[DaveH]

It could be worse! In the war teachers in Britain had to teach larger classes with fewer materials like paper and pencils. But they were better off than some German teachers. One German child broke his arm. He couldn't give the Hitler salute. The teacher told the boy not to bother but one of the boys in the class was a Nazi spy. The teacher was reported to the Nazi party and executed! W/E.

I'm sure that if I were a teacher during the war i am sure I could be redeployed into some other occupation to help the war effort.

"The day war broke out my wife said to me...." etc (Robb Wilton)