Guest rcolley Posted April 4, 2010 Share Posted April 4, 2010 I used to old Sheffield trams very regularly in the 1950s. I travelled from Meadowhead to Pitsmoor every day. One thing I could never understand is how the points were changed so that the tram took the right route. I assume it is done remotely on the new trams, but obviously not in the 1950s. So, how did it work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart0742 Posted April 4, 2010 Share Posted April 4, 2010 I used to old Sheffield trams very regularly in the 1950s. I travelled from Meadowhead to Pitsmoor every day. One thing I could never understand is how the points were changed so that the tram took the right route. I assume it is done remotely on the new trams, but obviously not in the 1950s. So, how did it work? At major junctions points men were employed, as in this photo at Hounsfield Rd, Weston Bank At trailing crossovers like this one on Handsworth Rd, the points would be sprung open in the crossover direction. I am sure Madannie will be able to give a fuller explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madannie77 Posted April 4, 2010 Share Posted April 4, 2010 The use of points men or boys was, in latter years, uncommon in Sheffield, the only place where this happened being the junction of the Walkley and Crookes routes as pictured in Stuart's post above. Apart from Fitzalan Square, where points were changed as necessary by the conductor, all over regularly used sets of facing points were controlled remotely by the tram driver. The first device used in Sheffield for this was Turner's Patent Point Controller, installed in 1904 at the Fargate/Church Street junction. This was followed by many more in the following years. A more modern type used from the 1930s onward was Collins Automatic Point Turner. For anyone wanting a very detailed explanation of how this worked, look here. Basically, these devices worked in the following way: at a certain point before a set of points a line contactor is placed on the overhead wire. As the tram trolley wheel passes the contactor the driver either draws current or turns current off. Generally, if current is drawn, a circuit is made via a relay box to a watertight box under the point work which sets the points to the curve of the points. If no current is drawn the circuit is different and the points will set for straight ahead. As well as setting the points, the equipment also set the route for the trolley pole by means of a "frog" at the junction of the catenary As drivers occasionally got the timing wrong or forgot the route, or the equipment failed, points levers for manual changing of points were always carried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart0742 Posted April 4, 2010 Share Posted April 4, 2010 The use of points men or boys was, in latter years, uncommon in Sheffield, the only place where this happened being the junction of the Walkley and Crookes routes as pictured in Stuart's post above. Apart from Fitzalan Square, where points were changed as necessary by the conductor, all over regularly used sets of facing points were controlled remotely by the tram driver. The first device used in Sheffield for this was Turner's Patent Point Controller, installed in 1904 at the Fargate/Church Street junction. This was followed by many more in the following years. A more modern type used from the 1930s onward was Collins Automatic Point Turner. For anyone wanting a very detailed explanation of how this worked, look here. Basically, these devices worked in the following way: at a certain point before a set of points a line contactor is placed on the overhead wire. As the tram trolley wheel passes the contactor the driver either draws current or turns current off. Generally, if current is drawn, a circuit is made via a relay box to a watertight box under the point work which sets the points will set to the curve of the points. If no current is drawn the circuit is different and the points will set for straight ahead. As well as setting the points, the equipment also set the route for the trolley pole by means of a "frog" at the junction of the catenary As drivers occasionally got the timing wrong or forgot the route, or the equipment failed, points levers for manual changing of points were always carried. I knew you would know the answer What a simple method, I'm impressed. Relays and electro magnets, bit like a telephone exchange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madannie77 Posted April 4, 2010 Share Posted April 4, 2010 I knew you would know the answer What a simple method, I'm impressed. Relays and electro magnets, bit like a telephone exchange. I am now getting frustrated at my inability to find a good photograph of a contactor in situ, preferably in Sheffield, which is spoiling the pleasure I felt at finding the Collins information. It also occurs to me that the reason the automatic points changing control system was not used on Hounsfield Road is because of the gradient: it simply wasn't practical or safe to coast whilst travelling up Hounsfield Road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiddlestick Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 If anyone's ever in Lisbon, have a ( careful ) look at the cast plates by the side of the points. They say 'Edgar Allen Sheffield Ltd.' ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalewoods8 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 This old pic. is of my mother in law I think taken in the 1940's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old rider Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 On 24/05/2016 at 16:05, Fiddlestick said: If anyone's ever in Lisbon, have a ( careful ) look at the cast plates by the side of the points. They say 'Edgar Allen Sheffield Ltd.' ! Edgar Allen's held may of the patents in relation to tramway tracks. They used to lay out tramway and railway tracks in their yard on Shepcote Lane before shipping it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 On 23/06/2016 at 17:35, dalewoods8 said: This old pic. is of my mother in law I think taken in the 1940's What an excellent period photo, thanks for posting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiddlestick Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Just after the last trams ran and were stored in Tinsley sheds awaiting towing across to Tommy Ward's for scrapping ( Ward's paying just £40 per car !), a friend and I went there and were allowed in by the watchman, we were aged 15 at the time. No one else was there, which was odd given the emotions at the time, and we clambered in them at will, cutting off bits of seating and unscrewing seat corner handles etc.for souvenirs. On the platform of one tram we played with the controls and I think it was the vertical, circular brass brake wheel which we wound round and were amazed when it lifted the tram completely up off the rails, wheels and all. It must have been a mechanical back-up for the electro-magnetic brake shoes which clamped to the rails. I've just received a reply from the archivist at the National Tramway Museum at Crich to my querie about the 90 London Feltham trams which were bought by Leeds. I'd read years ago that they passed on the low-loaders through Sheffield going via Manchester and Huddersfield to Leeds which was far from the direct route and have often wondered if anyone saw them or if there were any photos of these London trams passing our own going through the city. It seems there are no photos, unless someone on here has some ? The reason for the long diversion is given in the reply :- Thank you for contacting us regarding finding out more about the London Feltham tram sent to Leeds. I have managed to find an account of the tram’s journey in J. Soper’s book “Leeds Transport Volume 3 1932-1953”, Chapter 66 1932-1953. The route from London was worked out by the Tramways Rolling Stock Engineer, Victor J. Matterface, who’s idea it was to acquire the Felthams. He made a trial run of the journey in his car, using a specially made, adjustable bridge gauge to measure the clearances, made at the Kirkstall Road Works. Feltham 2099 was selected as the first to go to Leeds, and Mr. Matterface accompanied it on its journey. It was towed by an A.E.C. Matador MUB 647 tractor; an ex-Ministry of Supply vehicle the Company had purchased the year before. Apart from an incident with a cyclist in London, the journey went smoothly until the tram reached Doncaster. Here there was a bridge Mr. Matterface had found was a tight squeeze but was just passable. However, in the time between his trial run and transporting the tram the road had been repaired, resulting in a higher surface level. A new route was planned which took the tram from Doncaster to Rotherham, Sheffield, Manchester, Huddersfield, Brighthouse and Bradford before reaching Leeds at 7:30pm 1st October 1949. The photo below being of one of them re-liveried and operating in Leeds with the trolley poles ( they had 2 when in London ) replaced by bow collectors. The one at Crich is a one-off, having centre doors and was sold to Sunderland. Plenty of photos on the net and some superb Feltham tram models by Corgi are available ( at around £10 2nd.-hand at model swapmeets.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamstreak50 Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 On 04/04/2010 at 19:39, madannie77 said: The use of points men or boys was, in latter years, uncommon in Sheffield, the only place where this happened being the junction of the Walkley and Crookes routes as pictured in Stuart's post above. Apart from Fitzalan Square, where points were changed as necessary by the conductor, all over regularly used sets of facing points were controlled remotely by the tram driver. The first device used in Sheffield for this was Turner's Patent Point Controller, installed in 1904 at the Fargate/Church Street junction. This was followed by many more in the following years. A more modern type used from the 1930s onward was Collins Automatic Point Turner. For anyone wanting a very detailed explanation of how this worked, look here. Basically, these devices worked in the following way: at a certain point before a set of points a line contactor is placed on the overhead wire. As the tram trolley wheel passes the contactor the driver either draws current or turns current off. Generally, if current is drawn, a circuit is made via a relay box to a watertight box under the point work which sets the points to the curve of the points. If no current is drawn the circuit is different and the points will set for straight ahead. As well as setting the points, the equipment also set the route for the trolley pole by means of a "frog" at the junction of the catenary As drivers occasionally got the timing wrong or forgot the route, or the equipment failed, points levers for manual changing of points were always carried. Thank you for the information about tram points .It is something that has puzzled me .Very interesting thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon crapper Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 madannie77 is correct about the point operation, but not about the overhead frog, which was changed by the trolley pole itself, engaging a dangling lever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_exS10 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 No mention of "Sheffield Tram On 17/11/2016 at 12:49, Gordon crapper said: madannie77 is correct about the point operation, but not about the overhead frog, which was changed by the trolley pole itself, engaging a dangling lever. Must mention "Sheffield Trams" which turns up periodically on eBay (Search Sheffield Tram photos) as DVD or VHS. Under "Walkley - Intake Route Abandonment " there are three shots of the Hounsfield Road pointsman at work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unitedite Returns Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 The attached photograph shows Sheffield Transport, Tram-Car No.242, at the junction of Western Bank, Winter Street and Hounsfield Road, Broomhill, Sheffield, on 16/03/1957. This tram-car, seen on the Crookes to Handsworth service is descending from Western Bank onto Hounsfield Road. The tracks in the foreground formerly ran up Hounsfield Road, and so, through to Walkley, but this service was discontinued on Saturday, 07/04/1956, and in this photograph, the overhead power lines have already been removed. I seem to think that this happened almost immediately after the withdrawal of this service. The points at this junction used to be manually controlled by a points-man. However, by the time that this photograph was taken, the points had been permanently switched in favour of the Western Bank - Crookes Route, but the points-man's shelter is still extant and it is still visible on the left-hand-side of the photograph. The photograph gives some indication of the gradient to be negotiated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madannie77 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 All this talk of Hounsfield Road reminds me of a "Then & Now" from some time ago which shows the pointsman and his shelter. The bottom one of the three in this post. https://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/topic/5996-then-amp-now-sheffield-trams/?do=findComment&comment=72890 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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