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Guest MenstrieOwl

I am researching the career of my great uncle George Robertson, a Scottish internationalist who played for Sheffield Wednesday between 1910 and 1920. George was indirectly responsible for Wednesday becoming known as the Owls when he presented the team with an owl as a mascot and they won their next 4 home games without conceding a goal.

I would love to hear from anyone who has any information on George's time in Sheffield or any photographs of him or Wednesday teams in which he appeared.

Attached are two photographs of George, one with the owl he presented to the club and one with his first Scottish Cap.

Iain Paterson

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dunsbyowl1867

I am researching the career of my great uncle George Robertson, a Scottish internationalist who played for Sheffield Wednesday between 1910 and 1920. George was indirectly responsible for Wednesday becoming known as the Owls when he presented the team with an owl as a mascot and they won their next 4 home games without conceding a goal.

I would love to hear from anyone who has any information on George's time in Sheffield or any photographs of him or Wednesday teams in which he appeared.

Attached are two photographs of George, one with the owl he presented to the club and one with his first Scottish Cap.

Iain Paterson

Fantastic Photos Iain

SWFC Career

George Robertson Scotland 1910-1919 Apps 173 Goals 31 - Scotland International

I am sure someone will be able to help Iain. Prior to George presenting the Owl - Wednesday's mascot had been the Wednesday Monkey he he and the Club nickname had been the Blades, a name discarded at that point for United to adopt!

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dunsbyowl1867

Fantastic Photos Iain

SWFC Career

George Robertson Scotland 1910-1919 Apps 173 Goals 31 - Scotland International

I am sure someone will be able to help Iain. Prior to George presenting the Owl - Wednesday's mascot had been the Wednesday Monkey he he and the Club nickname had been the Blades, a name discarded at that point for United to adopt!

Here's a shot of the 1910-11 team with Robertson on. Did he also study at Sheffield University?

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Guest MenstrieOwl

Thanks for the pic Dunsbyowl.

George was a baker when he joined Wednesday with his colleague James Murray in 1910. The Green 'Un carried a detailed pen portrait of the two former Motherwell players at the time, both were part-time professionals. Murray was a school teacher and I guess that George probably thought it was an easier way of making a living after his football career ended.

Would George have been able to train as a teacher at Sheffield University?

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dunsbyowl1867

Thanks for the pic Dunsbyowl.

George was a baker when he joined Wednesday with his colleague James Murray in 1910. The Green 'Un carried a detailed pen portrait of the two former Motherwell players at the time, both were part-time professionals. Murray was a school teacher and I guess that George probably thought it was an easier way of making a living after his football career ended.

Would George have been able to train as a teacher at Sheffield University?

It looks like Murray & robertson made their debuts against Bradford City on 28th March 1910 and both scored Wednesday winning 2-1.

In the book '100 Years at Hillsborough' it states :

James Robertson and James Murray (their error!) - both of whom were internationals, Murray for Ireland nad Robertson for Scotland. The Soctsman's main reason for moving to Wednesday was unique, in that he was of a scolastic nature and came to Sheffield in order to study at the City University.' Given the name error maybe they have got this the wrong way round ;-)

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dunsbyowl1867

It looks like Murray & robertson made their debuts against Bradford City on 28th March 1910 and both scored Wednesday winning 2-1.

In the book '100 Years at Hillsborough' it states :

James Robertson and James Murray (their error!) - both of whom were internationals, Murray for Ireland nad Robertson for Scotland. The Soctsman's main reason for moving to Wednesday was unique, in that he was of a scolastic nature and came to Sheffield in order to study at the City University.' Given the name error maybe they have got this the wrong way round ;-)

From 'Romance of the Wednesday" by RA Sparling

"The left wing in 1912-13 was Wilson and George Robertson, and the lean outside left was a star of lustre. Robertson earned international hours with Scotland by sheer brilliance. On occasions he rose to real greatness, and it was a pity an accident to a knee in a match with Sheffield United was the beginning of the end of his career. Robertson was highly thought of across the border, and represented Scotland four times. His last season with the club was the disasterous one immediately after the war."

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dunsbyowl1867

It looks like Murray & robertson made their debuts against Bradford City on 28th March 1910 and both scored Wednesday winning 2-1.

In the book '100 Years at Hillsborough' it states :

James Robertson and James Murray (their error!) - both of whom were internationals, Murray for Ireland nad Robertson for Scotland. The Soctsman's main reason for moving to Wednesday was unique, in that he was of a scolastic nature and came to Sheffield in order to study at the City University.' Given the name error maybe they have got this the wrong way round ;-)

From 'Romance of the Wednesday" by RA Sparling

"The left wing in 1912-13 was Wilson and George Robertson, and the lean outside left was a star of lustre. Robertson earned international hours with Scotland by sheer brilliance. On occasions he rose to real greatness, and it was a pity an accident to a knee in a match with Sheffield United was the beginning of the end of his career. Robertson was highly thought of across the border, and represented Scotland four times. His last season with the club was the disasterous one immediately after the war."

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  • 4 months later...
Guest ninerbrit

Thanks for the pic Dunsbyowl.

George was a baker when he joined Wednesday with his colleague James Murray in 1910. The Green 'Un carried a detailed pen portrait of the two former Motherwell players at the time, both were part-time professionals. Murray was a school teacher and I guess that George probably thought it was an easier way of making a living after his football career ended.

Would George have been able to train as a teacher at Sheffield University?

Would you have a scan of both pen portraits?

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clive_w_nicholson

This is an article about Sheffield Wednesday's 1911 tour of Sweden. I believe that it also features in the book '100 years at Hillsborough'.

http://www.btinternet.com/~a.drake/owls/misc/coptour1911.htm

I'm assuming that you have a copy of 'The Wednesday Boys'? I don't keep my copy at my house so can't scan you his article, but maybe someone else will on here. With the risk of offending someone - don't buy 'The men who made sheffield Wednesday Football Club' thinking you have the same thing as 'The Wednesday Boys' they do not compare.

Depending on what detail you are after with your research a trip to Sheffield Library would be well worth your while. The Picture Sheffield facility is excellent, part of their catalogue is available on line and will include photographs for you. It's worth booking a microfilm reader/copier and taking the time to go through the Sheffield Green 'un.

http://www.picturesheffield.com/database_search.php

There is a good action shot from 1910 on picture sheffield and I know for a fact that there are about 15 more of these in the library from around that time. I'm just going to have a look and see what pics are available online and may add a second message.

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clive_w_nicholson

I looked on allfootballers.com and pretty sure you will know all this info.

Before Wednesday - Played for Yorker Athletic and Motherwell

After - East Fife.

There are pictures on picture sheffield online but they do not give players names and the quality online is poor so it's hard to see if he is on them. In the library they do give team line-ups where they have them and also you can print in high quality. Having said that you can order them online at higher quality but they cost £3 more online.

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Guest MenstrieOwl

Would you have a scan of both pen portraits?

Hi Ninerbrit,

Don't have the pen portrait for Murray but George's reads thus:-

MEN OF THE MOMENT

George Robertson, Sheffield Wednesday

“You can generally tell a baker, as you can tell a miner – by the whiteness of his face. Life in the pit has its compensation for this theft of natural colour – or so an old Scottish footballer told me – in its strengthening effect upon the digestion. But whether baking offers any such compensation I don’t know. There was in the past time a famous footballer who used to work at his trade as a baker half through the night before playing in his club’s matches.

But, generally speaking, one would say that a trade which so greatly affects the lungs of its workers is not one for an athlete to follow, and probably it is well for all concerned that George Robertson, Wednesday’s new outside left, has given up active participation in the trade, of which he is a skilled exponent. Still you can tell him on the field by the paleness of his countenance.

There are other things. You can pick him out by the peculiar cunning of his dribbling, by a way he has of emerging from a tackle with the ball, when the average outside-left would have given up possession and by the extra special quality of his centres.

Robertson has cost the Wednesday Club a pot of money. If people knew how much they would open their eyes. The fact is that the Murray-Robertson transfer altogether is one of the biggest things of the kind that have taken place, but the Wednesday have a policy of silence where the amounts of transfer fees are concerned, and so the figure is not likely to become generally known Whatever, it may have been, however, there is a consensus of opinion among good judges that Robertson at any rate will prove worth his share. Murray I can speak of later.

Robertson is an artist with the ball. We saw this in the first few minutes of the game at Bradford, in which he made his debut. His control of the object was delightfully sure, and the way in which he could guide it past or over hooking feet, while on the run, was convincing as to his outstanding merit. Several times in that game he recovered the ball from seemingly hopeless positions, and as he has done the same thing in other matches since, this power of recovery is evidently a valuable feature of his play. He can shoot goals from oblique angles, and he middles the ball so well that he makes scoring easy for others. Robertson has played for Scotland this season, and was picked to play in the inter-League match for the Scottish League. His build is splendid for a forward – only two inches short of six feet in height, and in weight 11st. 10lbs”.

Still can't figure out where people got the idea that George was a teacher - the Census return for Rhode Island, USA in 1930 (he emigrated in 1922) gives his occupation as House Painter.

Regards,

MenstrieOwl

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Guest MenstrieOwl

I looked on allfootballers.com and pretty sure you will know all this info.

Before Wednesday - Played for Yorker Athletic and Motherwell

After - East Fife.

There are pictures on picture sheffield online but they do not give players names and the quality online is poor so it's hard to see if he is on them. In the library they do give team line-ups where they have them and also you can print in high quality. Having said that you can order them online at higher quality but they cost £3 more online.

Hi Clive,

Thanks for all of your tips. I think I have most of the publications covering George's career at Motherwell, Wednesday and East Fife. Yoker Athletic are a Junior Football side who play in the west end of Glasgow (sadly all of their records from this period have been lost).

I have managed to pick up a couple of team groups from Picture Sheffield Online but would like to hear from anyone who has a good copy of the photograph which shows Wednesday being presented to the Crown Prince of Denmark on their Scandinavian Tour.

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Guest ninerbrit

Hi Ninerbrit,

Don't have the pen portrait for Murray but George's reads thus:-

Regards,

MenstrieOwl

Many thanks for that.

I am trying to trace information on James Murray. I came across information on a set of football cards from 1910 which has TWO J Murray's from Motherwell capped playing for Ireland. One is a Jasper Murray whom it states played twice against England and Scotland in 1910. The other is James M. Murray whom its states was transferred from Motherwell to Sheffield Wednesday in late March 1910 and then was capped against Wales in April.

However the Irish Football Association records show just one J. Murray capped in 1910 winning three caps. I am trying to find out were there two players capped or just the one.

Also looking for conformation of J.M Murray's middle name. Some sources have it as James Marshall Murray, other say this is incorrect but do not give an alternative suggestion.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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dunsbyowl1867

I assume you have seen this ? Gives details of his caps. Others may be interested.

Cheers

http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2008/01/jimmy-murray.html

Many thanks for that.

I am trying to trace information on James Murray. I came across information on a set of football cards from 1910 which has TWO J Murray's from Motherwell capped playing for Ireland. One is a Jasper Murray whom it states played twice against England and Scotland in 1910. The other is James M. Murray whom its states was transferred from Motherwell to Sheffield Wednesday in late March 1910 and then was capped against Wales in April.

However the Irish Football Association records show just one J. Murray capped in 1910 winning three caps. I am trying to find out were there two players capped or just the one.

Also looking for conformation of J.M Murray's middle name. Some sources have it as James Marshall Murray, other say this is incorrect but do not give an alternative suggestion.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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Guest ninerbrit

I assume you have seen this ? Gives details of his caps. Others may be interested.

Cheers

http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2008/01/jimmy-murray.html

Yes, but that pen pic attributes James Murray that played for Sheffield Wednesday as winning three caps. I am trying to find out if the information on the cigarette cards issued in 1910 is correct, and that this J. Murray only won one cap, and a different J. Murray won the other two caps.

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Guest MenstrieOwl

Yes, but that pen pic attributes James Murray that played for Sheffield Wednesday as winning three caps. I am trying to find out if the information on the cigarette cards issued in 1910 is correct, and that this J. Murray only won one cap, and a different J. Murray won the other two caps.

Ninerbrit

James Murray won 3 Irish caps, 2 while with Motherwell and one, against Wales on 11th April 1910 at Wrexham, after he had signed for Wednesday.

Regards

MenstrieOwl

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Guest ninerbrit

Ninerbrit

James Murray won 3 Irish caps, 2 while with Motherwell and one, against Wales on 11th April 1910 at Wrexham, after he had signed for Wednesday.

Regards

MenstrieOwl

Yes, that is what the records show, but as i explained there may have been two different J. Murrays with Motherwell in 1910 as shown on the cigarette cards, one winning two caps and the other one cap. However there may be a situation where the records have put both players together as the same person and thus indicating one player winning three caps.

What the cigarette cards show is that Jasper Murray Motherwell won two caps against England and Scotland in March 1910, the another card shows a different player, James Murray, transferred by Motherwell to Sheffield Wednesday and winning one cap against Wales in April 1910. Two diiferent cards showing two diferent people.

What i am trying to find out is, are the cards incorrect or has a mistake been made in the IFA records.

How that clarifies what i am trying to establish.

Many thanks for your assistance.

regards

Ninerbrit

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clive_w_nicholson

Yes, that is what the records show, but as i explained there may have been two different J. Murrays with Motherwell in 1910 as shown on the cigarette cards, one winning two caps and the other one cap. However there may be a situation where the records have put both players together as the same person and thus indicating one player winning three caps.

What the cigarette cards show is that Jasper Murray Motherwell won two caps against England and Scotland in March 1910, the another card shows a different player, James Murray, transferred by Motherwell to Sheffield Wednesday and winning one cap against Wales in April 1910. Two diiferent cards showing two diferent people.

What i am trying to find out is, are the cards incorrect or has a mistake been made in the IFA records.

How that clarifies what i am trying to establish.

Many thanks for your assistance.

regards

Ninerbrit

On allfootballers.com the records show James Murray as having won all 3 caps. There is no record of a Jasper Murray, but this may be because he did not play in the English football league as the records only relate to players who have played in the English game.

However, this would not be the first time I have heard of two players from this period mysteriously becoming one!

I am affraid that to find out if your hunch is right you may have to spend a day sat on a microfilm machine reading the Motherwell papers from the time. It is a bit unlucky that they/he played for Ireland, as if they played for England or Scotland records would have been much more accurate. Good luck with it all.

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Guest MenstrieOwl

Yes, that is what the records show, but as i explained there may have been two different J. Murrays with Motherwell in 1910 as shown on the cigarette cards, one winning two caps and the other one cap. However there may be a situation where the records have put both players together as the same person and thus indicating one player winning three caps.

What the cigarette cards show is that Jasper Murray Motherwell won two caps against England and Scotland in March 1910, the another card shows a different player, James Murray, transferred by Motherwell to Sheffield Wednesday and winning one cap against Wales in April 1910. Two diiferent cards showing two diferent people.

What i am trying to find out is, are the cards incorrect or has a mistake been made in the IFA records.

How that clarifies what i am trying to establish.

Many thanks for your assistance.

regards

Ninerbrit

Ninerbrit

I have researched Motherwell matches in the Motherwell Times from 1906 to 1910. Trust me the only Murray at the club during that period was James.

Check out 'Well Again by Graham Barnstaple and Keith Brown.

MenstrieOwl

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Guest ninerbrit

Ninerbrit

I have researched Motherwell matches in the Motherwell Times from 1906 to 1910. Trust me the only Murray at the club during that period was James.

Check out 'Well Again by Graham Barnstaple and Keith Brown.

MenstrieOwl

Excellent many thanks, as the only other J Murray i can find played for Motherwell in 1911/12 season, so it looks like the cigarette cards were wrong.

Much appreciated.

Ninerbrit

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  • 1 month later...
Guest MenstrieOwl

Ninerbrit

Apparently Murray played a few more games for Motherwell after his return from Ireland.

Menstrieowl

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