A World War One Aeroplane Named Sheffield

[peterwarr]

The ship HMS Sheffield is rightly celebrated in its home city, but the city’s aeroplane with that name in the previous world war is almost forgotten. At the time, its presentation to the Imperial Air Fleet was treated as “historic”, apparently watched by 80,000 people.

The plane was sponsored by members of the Cutlers’ Company, for service in the Western Front. It was sent on its way from Coal Aston air-field (later termed Norton aerodrome) on 29 September 1917, in an event attended by local, national and international dignitaries. A cameraman from Pathe News was there, and parts of his film are shown at http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=77770. Details were published in the Sheffield papers, Independent and Telegraph, on 1 October 1917.

It’s now important to learn more about this contribution from Sheffield. For instance, what kind of plane was it? (A picture is available in the final frame on the Pathe site.) Where might it have been made? And, crucially, did “Sheffield” survive the war?

Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks very much.

Peter Warr

[RichardS]

AFAIK Coal-Aston airfield and Norton are 2 completely seperate entities, I believe Coal Aston Airfield is still there and Norton was solely used for barrage balloons.

[Bayleaf]

According to the text, the aircraft was presented by the Imperial Air Fleet Committee, Sheffield. Canada, not Sheffield UK. Presumably the Mistress Cutter (sic) was acting on their behalf?

In which case it isn't quite comparable with HMS Sheffield.

[DaveH]

AFAIK Coal-Aston airfield and Norton are 2 completely seperate entities, I believe Coal Aston Airfield is still there and Norton was solely used for barrage balloons.

There are topics on this site about both of these airfields and they are frequently confused.

Norton aerodrome is still there, derelict, on Norton Avenue in Sheffield S14 just opposite Herdings park.

I think it is Coal Aston airfield, which was much bigger, that is no longer there.

[RichardS]

I know norton is still there, but I'm sure coal Aston airfield is still there, towards apperknowle.

[RichardS]

Could be a Royal Aircraft Factory R.E.8? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Aircraft_Factory_R.E.8

In the summer of 1917, a "Newfoundland Week" was declared in England to celebrate the 420th anniversary of the discovery of Newfoundland and to draw attention to the colony's contribution to the war effort. The cities of Sheffield and Liverpool were encouraged by the Imperial Air fleet Committee to raise money for the purchase of aircraft to be presented to Newfoundland and used in the colony's name on the war front. In a ceremony in Sheffield, the Lord Mayor presented a gift aircraft to the Air Fleet Committee, which it turned over to the colony. Lady Isabel Morris, wife of the Newfoundland Prime Minister, broke a bottle of wine over the propeller and christened the aircraft Sheffield. The Sheffield, an RE8 (serial #A4458) was deployed with 7 Squadron

http://www.newfoundlandquarterly.ca/issue430/allied.php

[Bayleaf]

I know norton is still there, but I'm sure coal Aston airfield is still there, towards apperknowle.

Have a read of this thread and the links

The front view I didn't think looked like an RE8, but the side of the cockpit/ gunner's position does look like it.

If Richard is correct, which seems likely, then the text accompanying the film is completely wrong! But I still hold to the view that it isn't named for our Sheffield, but Sheffield in Canada.

[DaveH]

Have a read of this thread and the links

Bayleafs link is to the topic about the Coal Aston airfield.

The link to the Norton Aerodrome topic is HERE

[peterwarr]

According to the text, the aircraft was presented by the Imperial Air Fleet Committee, Sheffield. Canada, not Sheffield UK. Presumably the Mistress Cutter (sic) was acting on their behalf?

In which case it isn't quite comparable with HMS Sheffield.

-----------------------------------------------------

Many thanks to Bayleaf and others. I’d like to spend time looking in detail at the replies.

For now, I should emphasize that this plane was definitely a donation from Sheffield to Newfoundland for use in the Western Front. The archives of the Cutlers’ Company track progress in this, with a request made to the Master Cutler by the President of the Imperial Air Fleet Committee “to be presented by the city”, funds raised from members of the Cutlers’ Company, and the Master and Mistress Cutler doing the presentation honours at Coal Aston.

The fact that the plane was a gift from Sheffield is also made clear in the newspaper reports.

In the Cutlers’ Company archives is this (attached) photo of the plane. Perhaps that gives another clue about its type?

This plane from Sheffield with its city’s name deserves credit, as does the WW2 ship with the same name.

Peter Warr

[peterwarr]

Could be a Royal Aircraft Factory R.E.8? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Aircraft_Factory_R.E.8

In the summer of 1917, a "Newfoundland Week" was declared in England to celebrate the 420th anniversary of the discovery of Newfoundland and to draw attention to the colony's contribution to the war effort. The cities of Sheffield and Liverpool were encouraged by the Imperial Air fleet Committee to raise money for the purchase of aircraft to be presented to Newfoundland and used in the colony's name on the war front. In a ceremony in Sheffield, the Lord Mayor presented a gift aircraft to the Air Fleet Committee, which it turned over to the colony. Lady Isabel Morris, wife of the Newfoundland Prime Minister, broke a bottle of wine over the propeller and christened the aircraft Sheffield. The Sheffield, an RE8 (serial #A4458) was deployed with 7 Squadron

http://www.newfoundlandquarterly.ca/issue430/allied.php

Many thanks -- that's fantastic.

I see from the Wikipedia link that the unit price of an RE8 was "£2068 (RAF 4a engine)". That corresponds nicely to the estimate made to the Master Cutler that he would need to raise "two thousand guineas"!

[RichardB]

Many thanks -- that's fantastic.

I see from the Wikipedia link that the unit price of an RE8 was "£2068 (RAF 4a engine)". That corresponds nicely to the estimate made to the Master Cutler that he would need to raise "two thousand guineas"!

and I've only just worked out what AFAIK means ...

[Bayleaf]

I'm sorry Peter but I don't see the comparison. The aircraft was apparently paid for by monies from Sheffield UK and dedicated to Sheffield Canada.

The several HMS Sheffields weren't paid for by the city, they simply bore the name of the city. (Slight exception being the WW2 HMS Sheffield which carried stainless steel fittings made in Sheffield instead of the usual brass, hence it's name the 'Shiny Sheff'.)

[peterwarr]

I'm sorry Peter but I don't see the comparison. The aircraft was apparently paid for by monies from Sheffield UK and dedicated to Sheffield Canada.

The several HMS Sheffields weren't paid for by the city, they simply bore the name of the city. (Slight exception being the WW2 HMS Sheffield which carried stainless steel fittings made in Sheffield instead of the usual brass, hence it's name the 'Shiny Sheff'.)

I suppose it depends on what they are compared in terms of.

My point was a simpler one. It’s a pity that Sheffield appears to have forgotten the aeroplane which bore its name. It should instead be recalled and respected. (But I see that would be easier if we knew more about its exploits – if in fact there were any!)

[dunsbyowl1867]

I suppose it depends on what they are compared in terms of.

My point was a simpler one. It's a pity that Sheffield appears to have forgotten the aeroplane which bore its name. It should instead be recalled and respected. (But I see that would be easier if we knew more about its exploits – if in fact there were any!)

Not wanting to muddy the waters Not the only aeroplane to bear the name of the City of Sheffield!

http://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=1357

[peterwarr]

Not wanting to muddy the waters Not the only aeroplane to bear the name of the City of Sheffield!

http://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=1357

Ah, that does weaken the argument a bit. Perhaps the only one in WW1?

[dunsbyowl1867]

Ah, that does weaken the argument a bit. Perhaps the only one in WW1?

Possibly the only one with a caribou head mascot though!

1917 - 1031.PDF

[dunsbyowl1867]

Possibly the only one with a caribou head mascot though!

If you can wait to download this it is worth it - sorry it appears there were 3 Sheffield aeroplanes!

See page 6 of this PDF - too big to attach

www.flaginstitute.org/pdfs/Flagmaster126.pdf

[dunsbyowl1867]

If you can wait to download this it is worth it - sorry it appears there were 3 Sheffield aeroplanes!

See page 6 of this PDF - too big to attach

www.flaginstitute.org/pdfs/Flagmaster126.pdf

That may not work - google it instead - this is what it says :

"A PRESENTATION NEWFOUNDLAND ENSIGN

By Ian Sumner, Flag Institute Librarian

The photographs which illustrate this article are part

of the collection in the Flag Institute’s William Crampton

Memorial Library. They show a Newfoundland

Red Ensign. Under the Union canton is an inscription,

embroidered in gold which reads “IAF / AEROPLANE /

‘SHEFFIELD’ / SHEFFIELD 29-9-1917”

A little research reveals that this flag is a product of the

First World War. At the outbreak of war in 1914, there

were many patriotic civilians who were unable to serve in

the Armed Forces, but who wanted to contribute to the

war effort. Two societies, the Overseas Club (which represented

Britons living in the Empire) and the Patriotic

League of Britons Overseas (which represented Britons

living in foreign countries) began accepting donations of

money. Both societies approached the government with

the suggestion that the money go towards an “Imperial

Air Flotilla”, to which the Prime Minister and the Secretary

of State for War readily agreed.

A “price-list” was quickly drawn up. A donation of

£1,500 would buy a BE2c, £2,250 a Vickers “Gunbus”,

while £3,500 would buy a Short Seaplane. Each aircraft

would bear the name of the donor, who would receive

a photograph of the aircraft. It was further guaranteed

that, in the event of the aircraft being replaced, the name

would be transferred to another machine.

The first such presentation aircraft was a BE2c bearing

the name “Overseas”, which was formally handed over at

a ceremony at Farnborough on 1 May 1915. By the end

of the war over one million pounds had been donated to

the scheme, and over six hundred aircraft had been provided.

The average donation was £2,500, although some

individuals were able to give much more; the Nizam of

Hyderabad, for example, donated sufficient money to

provide a complete squadron of eighteen aircraft (the

initial complement of 110 Squadron).

Following the lead given by the rest of the Empire,

individuals, towns and cities and Army units in the UK

also wanted to donate money to the cause. The aircraft

supplied by this means were intended to form the nuclei

of the air forces of the colonies and dominions of the

Empire. In 1913, the idea of an “Imperial Air Fleet” had

been floated in the UK, “to strengthen the resources of

the Empire in aerial craft, in view of the great advances

made in this direction by foreign powers”. The first aircraft

of this scheme, a Blériot monoplane, was presented

to New Zealand in 1913.

The flag here commemorates the donations of the city

of Sheffield, Yorkshire, and the gift of an aircraft to the

Colony of Newfoundland. The aircraft in question was

an RE8 reconnaissance aircraft, number A4458, which

served with No 7 Squadron of the Royal Flying Corps,

based at Proven, near Ypres. Although the aircraft had

been donated to Newfoundland, there was no direct connection

between the colony and the squadron. Some two

months after the presentation, the aircraft did not return

from a mission near Passchendaele, and its crew, Second

Lieutenant William Mann, RFC and Second Lieutenant

Roy Forsyth, a Canadian serving with the RFC, were

reported missing. Both men are buried in Moorslede

Communal Cemetery, north-east of Ypres.

The replacement aircraft was another RE8, which

served with No 4 Squadron, and was shot down in April

1918. The third “Sheffield”, another RE8, served with

No 15 Squadron and survived the war.

The “Sheffield” Newfoundland Ensign and Detail of the Embroidered Inscription. (photo)

[dunsbyowl1867]

William Mann RFC

http://www.cwgc.org/...casualty=163807

In Memory of

Second Lieutenant WILLIAM GEORGE MANN

7th Sqdn., Royal Flying Corps

who died age 19

on 28 November 1917

Son of Thomas Godfrey and Jessie Stewart Mann, of 159, Ebury St., London. Civil Servant, Ministry of Health.

Remembered with honour

MOORSLEDE COMMUNAL CEMETERY

[dunsbyowl1867]

In Memory of

Second Lieutenant ROY ANDERSON FORSYTH

7th Sqdn., Royal Flying Corps

and, Royal Field Artillery

who died age 22

on 28 November 1917

Son of J. A. and Frances A. Forsyth, of 336, Rushton Rd., Toronto, Canada.

Remembered with honour

MOORSLEDE COMMUNAL CEMETERY

[peterwarr]

If you can wait to download this it is worth it - sorry it appears there were 3 Sheffield aeroplanes!

See page 6 of this PDF - too big to attach

www.flaginstitute.org/pdfs/Flagmaster126.pdf

Very many thanks. I’m bowled over by the quality of information provided by people picking up this issue. And to think that two weeks ago I didn’t know even this plane existed and the cutlers’ company had no idea what was happening in its photographs!

It looks like the remaining unknown is what happened to the third plane which “survived the war”. I’ll keep looking.

[Bayleaf]

Very many thanks. I'm bowled over by the quality of information provided by people picking up this issue. And to think that two weeks ago I didn't know even this plane existed and the cutlers' company had no idea what was happening in its photographs!

It looks like the remaining unknown is what happened to the third plane which "survived the war". I'll keep looking.

I don't know if this adds anything Peter. From a history of 15 Squadron.

The 1918 spring offensive gave No.15 a hard time, there being constant flying and several moves in rapid succession. As the German offensive was held and the counter-offensive started the squadron, now at Vert Galand, returned to its more traditional corps work.

This continued right into the final offensive in the autumn of 1918, and in September the squadron also took on a new task, namely the dropping of boxes of ammunition to the forward troops in response to field telephone calls from the troops themselves.

In the final few weeks the squadron was back to contact patrols again, but it was soon all over. The squadron followed V Corps as it moved around until February 1919, when it was reduced to cadre and returned to Fowlmere, where it was finally disbanded on 31 December 1919.

At the end of the war, all the hangars at Fowlmere were demolished, and the airfield was reactivated at the beginning of WW2, and became the home of a USAAF fighter group.

The newly formed RAF was reduced from the wartime complement of 200 squadrons to just 12; one in Germany, two at home, and the other nine in the Middle East and India. So 15 Squadron's aircraft couldn't have remained at Fowlmere for very long, and unless 'our' aircraft was reallocated to one of the survivng squadrons, it must have been sold or scrapped, though apart from the engine, I would have thought there would be little of scrap value.

[Bayleaf]

2 snippets from Wikipaedia

By November 1918, the R.E.8 was regarded as completely obsolete and surviving examples were quickly retired after the Armistice.

Only two R.E.8s survive. The restoration of R.E.8 F3556 at the Imperial War Museum Duxford was completed in 2004. This aircraft, built by Daimler, had arrived in France on Armistice Day (so presumably isn't our aircraft?). The other surviving R.E.8 is in Brussels, Belgium and is one of the few examples to have a Hispano-Suiza engine.

[peterwarr]

2 snippets from Wikipaedia

By November 1918, the R.E.8 was regarded as completely obsolete and surviving examples were quickly retired after the Armistice.

Only two R.E.8s survive. The restoration of R.E.8 F3556 at the Imperial War Museum Duxford was completed in 2004. This aircraft, built by Daimler, had arrived in France on Armistice Day (so presumably isn't our aircraft?). The other surviving R.E.8 is in Brussels, Belgium and is one of the few examples to have a Hispano-Suiza engine.

Thanks. All now seems clear, except the fate of the third plane. I’ve been in touch with the author of the article provided by RichardS, who writes:

“There is an excellent article in the journal "Cross & Cockade" (vol. 14, no. 2, pp. 49-104, 1983) by Raymond Vann and Colin Waugh, titled "Overseas and United Kingdom Presentation Aircraft 1914-1918". In fact, the article takes up the entire issue. They list all of the aircraft that they could find information on, including 12 from Canada and five from Newfoundland, with their service records. They also list 50+ aircraft from Great Britain. On p. 65, they say that 13 presentation aircraft were subscribed by GB cities to the Dominions. The Sheffield aircraft gifted on behalf of Newfoundland is listed on p. 66. The name appeared on at least three aircraft (all RE8s) and was still in service at the end of the war. It was never sent to Newfoundland. Newfoundland received 5 airships after the war, but no airplanes.”

So “it was never sent to Newfoundland”, and was probably scrapped or sold as you suggest.

[Bayleaf]

Thanks for intrducing the topic Peter, it's been fascinating, and just the sort of challenge our members thrive on. What's next?!