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Manor Castle Remains 28Th Sept 2010


beemerchez

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That slight blur in the picture and the reflection from a car window indicates that you were moving at a fair old speed along Manor Lane.

The speed limit on there is 30mph, but people often exceed this when they are frightened by the "ghost of the manor" who is said to haunt the old lodge.

Note, "lodge", frequently referered to, even by locals as "manor castle" but more correctly "manor lodge"

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Believe it or not we was doing 20 mph we was behind a Learner driver

Till half way up st Adians where they turned right.

so it must be something to do with the ghosts.. :unsure:

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Believe it or not we was doing 20 mph we was behind a Learner driver

Till half way up st Adians where they turned right.

so it must be something to do with the ghosts.. :unsure:

So, if they turned off onto Guildford did they think they were going to the Captive Queen (pub) or its modern incarnation of The Church of the Nazarine (church)?

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A little different to their appearance almost two hundred years ago.

Even 200 years ago it still appears to be in ruins and to have fallen into disuse.

It looks a lot more rural with all those animals wandering about, probably from that farm just behind the lodge.

But doesn't Manor Lane look a mess.

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But doesn't Manor Lane look a mess.

Never mind dave, come 2011 the Council will have the money to repair it at last.

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Guest Gramps

Even 200 years ago it still appears to be in ruins and to have fallen into disuse.

It looks a lot more rural with all those animals wandering about, probably from that farm just behind the lodge.

A partial extract of J. D. Leader's paper read to the British Archaeological Association in 1874. I've left out the long tract about the incarceration of MQoS.

"Sheffield Manor, or Sheffield Lodge, the scanty remains of

which we inspected on Monday,can boast no high antiquity,

nor lay claim, in an archaeological sense, to any long career.

Built by the fourth Earl of Shrewsbury, about the year

1525, it has passed through a century of noontide splendour,

a century of cold neglect, and nearly two centuries of decay.

Until the death of Earl Gilbert in 1616, Sheffield Lodge

was the favourite, if not the most magnificent seat of the

Earls of Shrewsbury. From 1616 to 1706 it was habitable

and occasionally inhabited, and from 1706 to the present

day it has been steadily crumbling away. What it is now

we have seen. Anything more squalid, more wretched, or

more dangerous than the dwellings that have been formed

out of its remains it would be difficult to conceive. Its

smells excel those of Cologne in strength and variety, while

the association of ancient luxury with modern filth is quite

Egyptian in its character and thoroughly Irish in its details. "

"The manor house was a stone, timber, and brick erection,

with "an inward court and an outward court, two gardens

and three yards." The chief entrance was'on the west side,

between two lofty octagonal towers of stone and brick,

from which a flight of steps led to the great hall, and thence

northwards to the long gallery, which occupied the whole

west front northward of the entrance gates, and terminated

at the north-west angle of the building in a " goodlie" tower

chamber, probably the best lodging in the house. On the

south front were the chief- rooms of the mansion, the apart-

ments being numerous but small ; and from the east end of

this front the buildings returned for a short distance to-

wards the north. In the enclosure between the tower

chamber on the north, the long gallery on the west, and the

range of buildings on the south, lay the garden, the original

one of which, forming its eastern boundary, is still standing.

Away to the east lay the stable yard, access to which was

obtained by a gateway, which may still be seen nearly oppo-

site the main entrance ; and among the buildings still stand-

ing are interesting remains of a strongly timbered barn.

Outside the south front lay a terrace garden, and between

the main entrance and the present manor farm stretched a

pleasant level lawn. Of the Manor Farm and its associations

I shall have occasion to speak in a short time. Of the in-

ternal arrangement of the Lodge we have little information.

Probably an inventory of the furniture there and at the

castle, made in 1582, and preserved among the Talbot

papers at the College of Arms, gives the most complete ac-

count that has come down to us, both of the apartments and

their contents, and that is all too scanty to satisfy the curious

enquirer after the relics of Sheffield's feudal age. From

this we learn that there was the great gallery on the west,

in which the fallen Wolsey paced with his kindly host ; the

tower chamber containing two fair corded bedsteads of in-

laid work, in which my Lord Cardinal slept ; the great

chamber, with its cistern of alabaster ; the queen's gallery

with its ashen table ; the queen's chamber and her " utter"

chamber ; the nursery containing " a fair square chest inlaid

wnth white bone made by my Lord Francis with the Talbot

and F. S.," almost spoiled through evil using ; the porter's

lodge, the chamber over the stable ; the kitchens and lard-

ers ; a wash-house and a low wash-house, a pantry, brew-

house, and Ijakehousc, besides the workmen's chamber, the

saddler's chamber, and several others. A mere enumeration

of rooms, even if we add the information that the walls were

hung with tapestry representing the story of Hercules, the

story of the Passion, and other religious and classic his-

tories ; that there were Turkey carpets, embroidered bed

hangings, crimson and velvet cushions, and chairs covered

witii purple velvet and embroidered with cloth of gold, with

crimson silk and silver, and some with cloth of tissue, does

not possess absorbing interest, nor single out this Manor

house from among other houses for our special attention. "

"If the members of this Association had visited Sheffield

Manor a few months ago, and had enquired for the Queen

of Scots' room, they would have been shown by the farmer's

wife the two chambers on the upper floor ; the outer one

occupied by a few old boxes and quite dark, the inner one

lighted by a modern sash window on the east side, but

adorned with a rich heraldic ceiling, and over the walled-up

fireplace was an almost illegible plaster cast of the arms of

Talbot. The old plaster floor was still entire, if a little un-

even. In some places the rain was finding its way through

the roof, and the room had a melancholy appearance of de-

cay, strangely contrasting with its ancient luxury. A few

years more and this portion of Shefheld Manor would have

been as ruinous as the rest. Fortunately our noble Presi-

dent, [the Duke of Norfolk] ever alive to the obligations, as well as to the rights

of property, visited the place in company with Mr. Hadtield,

his architect, and after spending a considerable time in ex-

amining the details, gave orders for its careful restoration.

The result we have just seen. The modern disfigurements

of the old house have been removed. The barns that hid

the south side have been taken down, and the cottage that

abuts upon the north, will follow as soon as the works are

a little more advanced. The modern windows, doors, and

fireplaces have been taken out, and the old lights opened

both on the east and west fronts. The door at the foot of

the turret stair, which has been hidden for two centuries

under a coating of stucco, has been restored. The door near

the south end of the east front was until now disguised as a

window. reverently and carefully the old work has been

preserved, and only where absolutely necessary has new

material been introduced, and when all is completed this

interesting historical fragment will have taken a new lease

of life."

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Guest Gramps

Can't take any credit for that ;-) ....Daniel Leader did the research and published it. I stumbled on the text following a lead from Bayleaf in his post http://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=9597.

A lot of the old Britarch articles are available on-line but only in plain text format. The OCR is a little primitive and needs quite a bit of editing to make it readable.

If it's of interest Leader's book dealing with Mary's time in captivity in Sheffield is available from the Internet Archive (28MB download).

"Mary queen of Scots in captivity: a narrative of events from January 1569, to December, 1584, Whilst George Earl of Shrewsbury was the guardian of the Scottish Queen" (1880)

http://www.archive.org/download/maryqueenofscots00lead/maryqueenofscots00lead.pdf

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Never mind dave, come 2011 the Council will have the money to repair it at last.

If they can afford to do Manor Lane then they can afford to come down our street and fill in all the potholes in that as well :angry:

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OK, here's an abstract, Manor-related question for sure:

Does anybody have any notion at all that back in 1841 or earlier, people living at, around or near the Manor were or might have been regarded by some, if not most of the rest of the population of Sheffield, as being somewhat beneath them?

I know ... Sounds like a ridiculous question, but there is a good genealogical reason for it. I read somewhere that somebody, (a source I don't now recall), referred to Attercliffe as Sheffield's "east-enders," and I've read other snippets that allude to that same sort of comic take on persons east of Sheffield.

Is there anything to this?

I put together a demography of sorts pertaining to the population at, near and around the Manor based on the 1841 Census, (total population: 585), and it appears that the primary occupation was Coal Miner, followed closely by Ag Labourer, and only a smattering of Cutlers.... while in Sheffield "proper" there were probably and literally thousands of Cutlers. An occupational difference like that might suggest the population recognizing the difference and making some sort of joke out of it.

In addition, the circa 1841 dwellings around the Manor have been described as being hovels, complete with poverty and disease... although that reality might not have differed with any other slum area inside Sheffield proper at that time.

Anybody have any take on this??

Thanks,,,,,,,,,,, Mike

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OK, here's an abstract, Manor-related question for sure:

Does anybody have any notion at all that back in 1841 or earlier, people living at, around or near the Manor were or might have been regarded by some, if not most of the rest of the population of Sheffield, as being somewhat beneath them?

I know ... Sounds like a ridiculous question, but there is a good genealogical reason for it. I read somewhere that somebody, (a source I don't now recall), referred to Attercliffe as Sheffield's "east-enders," and I've read other snippets that allude to that same sort of comic take on persons east of Sheffield.

Is there anything to this?

I put together a demography of sorts pertaining to the population at, near and around the Manor based on the 1841 Census, (total population: 585), and it appears that the primary occupation was Coal Miner, followed closely by Ag Labourer, and only a smattering of Cutlers.... while in Sheffield "proper" there were probably and literally thousands of Cutlers. An occupational difference like that might suggest the population recognizing the difference and making some sort of joke out of it.

In addition, the circa 1841 dwellings around the Manor have been described as being hovels, complete with poverty and disease... although that reality might not have differed with any other slum area inside Sheffield proper at that time.

Anybody have any take on this??

Thanks,,,,,,,,,,, Mike

That's really interesting Mike. Just off the top, I suppose miners and agricultural labourers were also employees, whereas most or many cutlers would have been self employed, and perhaps therefore considered themselves 'a cut above'?

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The reason Attercliffe and 'down that way' was lower class was apparently because the smoke from the city blew in that direction making it less desirable to live and therefore cheaper to rent housing.

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BayLeaf and RichardS .... Thanks to both of you for your responses....

It appears that the area at, around and near the Manor included about 7 farms, a colliery and a quarry or two. Out of a total population of 585 persons, the breakdown of 1841 occupations looks like this:

50 Coal Miners

35 Ag Labourers

9 Farmers

9 Cutlers

5 Stone Cutters

4 Butchers

10 Independents (more or less "wealthy" and/or "landed" is my guess)

9 Male Servants

13 Female Servants

There were other occupations like "Iron Moulder" and the like, and even an "Engineer" or two, but they were few in number.., like a couple in each category.

Based on the 1841 Census, it almost seems as if the area around the Manor was a more or less self-sustaining community of sorts, amounting to something like a virtual stand-alone village unto itself, with the primary "export" (if you like) being Coal.

In all, there were 25 "addresses" recorded at, near or around the Manor in 1841, (Enumeration District 18), and many of these places are probably still there today:

Manor Cottage

Wybourne Farm

Cricket Inn

Cricket Row

Cricket Inn Row

Cricket Lane

Cricket Farm

Farr Houses

Nunnery Farm

Corker Bottom

Hoult Farm

Crabtree Farm

Low Stand House

Park Farm

Top Stand House

Windy House

Deep Pit

Deep Pit Cabin

Prosect House

Manor Farm

Castle Yard Manor

Manor Castle Yard

Manor Lane

Manor Wood Colliery

Manor Quarry

My GGGG-Grands lived at "Castle Yard Manor" (as it was enumerated in the 1841 Census), between 1830 and 184x, and my GGGG-Grandmother died there of TB in January of 1842 (buried in Attercliffe Cem). Somehow, my widowed GGGG-Grandfather and his oldest son, (my GGG-Grandfather, married and living in Brightside), managed to concoct a plan and accumulate enough money in the mid-1840s, and emigrated to the US, in two seperate groups, with all of them being reunited together in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in Nov of 1848. From there, in 1849, they went straight north about 185 miles, into a remote, sparsely populated, rugged and mountainous wilderness in northern PA... Sullivan County specifically, which is where I live today.

None of this addresses the nature of my original question as it pertains to how the Manor area was viewed or regarded by the rest of Sheffield, but we're getting there, lol ......

I ran into a couple long-lost shirt-tail relations here in the States. Neither knows the other, but oddly, both of them told a similar tale regarding impressions or notions that suggested that there was, or might have been, a certain possible unhappiness or reluctance on the part of the GGG-Grandfather's in-laws (the ones living in Brightside) regarding their daughter's marriage to my GGG-GF --- he being the eldest child of the family living at the Manor, i.e., those little hovels plastered against the walls of the ruin itself.

In a nutshell, that's it, and I just couldn't help asking if there was any validity at all to the notion or if there is still today a memory of a time when people living at the Manor were basically regarded by everybody else as being "of the lower, less desirable class."

Mike

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Incidentally..... The family surname of those living at the Manor in 1841 was Jackson, and my avatar is a circa 1910 photo of the mountain upon which my GGG-GF and his family first settled in 1849. The mountain was dubbed "High Knob" by the State of PA, but it's still today called "Jackson Mountain" by the locals.

Mike

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None of this addresses the nature of my original question as it pertains to how the Manor area was viewed or regarded by the rest of Sheffield, but we're getting there, lol ......

Mike

Very good research Mike, keep it up mate.

Thank you for posting and welcome to sheffieldhistory.

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Manor Castle Yard 1841

Bailey, Arom - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 9 years.

Barnes, Bridget - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 18 years.

Barnes, Eliza - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 18 years.

Barnes, Elizabeth - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 6m years.

Barnes, Eve - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 5 years.

Barnes, Ezaeciah - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 8 years.

Barnes, George - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 49 years.

Barnes, George - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 21 years.

Barnes, Issac - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 12 years.

Barnes, Joseph - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 65 years.

Barnes, Joseph - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park Aged 15 years.

Barnes, Rebecca - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 49 years.

Barnes, William - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 7 years.

Bingley, Elizabeth - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 35 years.

Bingley, George - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 16 years.

Bingley, Richard - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 18 years.

Cowley, Samuel - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 50 years.

Cowlishaw, Caroline - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 25 years.

Cowlishaw, Godfrey - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 25 years.

Cowlishaw, William - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 3 years.

Cutt, Helen - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 4m years.

Cutt, John - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 6 years.

Cutt, Mathew - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 25 years.

Cutt, Sarah - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 25 years.

Cutt, William - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 4 years.

Cardwell, Elizabeth - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 5 years.

Cardwell, James - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 23 years.

Cardwell, James - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 50 years.

Cardwell, Mary - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 28 years.

Cardwell, Mary - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 50 years.

Cardwell, Sarah - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 20 years.

Cardwell, William - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 28 years.

Cutts, Benjamin - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 15 years.

Cutts, Henry - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 15 years.

Hutchinson, Ails - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 30 years.

Hutchinson, Ellen - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 10m years.

Hutchinson, George - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 10 years.

Hutchinson, John - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 35 years.

Hutchinson, Joseph - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 3 years.

Hobson, Ann - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 6 years.

Hobson, Eliza - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park . Aged 12 years.

Hobson, George - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 2 years.

Hobson, Joseph - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 4 years.

Hudson, Jane - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 20years. .

Hudson, Sarah - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 16 years

Harrop, Ann - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park Aged 30 years.

Harrop, Eliza - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park . Aged 10 years.

Harrop, Elizabeth - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 10 years.

Harrop, John - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 7 years.

Harrop, Joseph - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 15 years.

Harrop, Samuel - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 30 years.

Harrop, Samuel - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 2mt years.

Harrop, Sarah - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 5 years.

Harrop, Thomas - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 18 years.

Harrop, William - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 9 years.

Ledger, James - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 18 years.

Ledger, Julia - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 40 years.

Ledger, Julia - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 10 years.

Ledger, William - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 6 years.

Lundy, Joseph - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 15 years.

Lundy, Mary - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 30 years.

Lundy, Sarah - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 14 years.

Marrot, Benjamin - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 7 years.

Marrot, Easter - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 35 years.

Marrot, John - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 35 years.

Marrot, Joseph - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 9 years.

Marrot, Sarah - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 4 years.

Morton, Harriot - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 45 years.

Morton, William - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 55 years.

Mycock, Benjamin - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 35 years.

Mycock, Elizabeth - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 5 years

Mycock, Emma - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 15 years.

Mycock, Hannah - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 40 years.

Mycock, John - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 10 years.

Norton, William - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 60 years.

Wragg, Ann - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 15 years.

Wragg, Jonathan - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 15 years.

Wragg, Samuel - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 30 years.

Wragg, Sarah - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 60 years.

Wragg, Thomas - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 30 years.

Wragg, Thomas - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 60 years.

Wragg, Thomas - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 10 years.

Wragg, William - Manor Castle Yard, Sheffield Park. Aged 8 years.

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Well, that's some of them Vox.

As an aside, and as it happens, Bridget Barnes (2nd from the top) married my GGG-GF's next oldest brother, Thomas Jackson, in Dec of 1841. Thomas and Bridget stayed in Sheffield, and didn't emigrate to the US.

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Excavation of the 'Wolsey Tower' and the hexagonal room attached to it began in 1971. In addition to discovereing a garderobe in the northeast corner of the tower, the foundations for an early 18th century pottery kiln was uncovered in the hexagonal room, constructed at the time when the Manor had fallen into a ruinous state. John Fox, a caretaker of the property at the time, established a working pottery, producing mottled glaze wares known as 'Manor Ware' in various forms such as tankards, posset pots, plates and cups. A number of ceramics included initials and/or dates. Numerous associted products such as crucibles, wasters and saggers were also uncovered.

Source

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RichardB --- Thanks! All of it extremely interesting. My sense from the photos is that the Manor is located on an elevated height above the city (?). That would, or might, necessitate and explain d-e-e-p wells, and just digging one of those would have been a Herculean task, nevermind everything else, all the while with fingers crossed that at some point you actually hit water! It never ceases to amaze me what people way back when were able to accomplish.

Mike

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