Wybourn

[DaveH]

Quickest way is to turn down Manor Lane from City Road and then you either turn right for Manor or left for Wybourn.

I've lived there for ten years - and 'outsiders' keep telling me how rough it is

Yes, those directions would do it just fine.

But I live out at Intake so tend to approach it from the other end.

I used to live on the Arbourthorne for about 30 years or so (with my parents) and 'ousiders' were always telling me how rough that was ;-)

[Guest CarriKP]

Yes, those directions would do it just fine.

But I live out at Intake so tend to approach it from the other end.

I used to live on the Arbourthorne for about 30 years or so (with my parents) and 'ousiders' were always telling me how rough that was

In truth, I was really nervous when we first moved here because of what I'd been told. We had an (almost) vintage Jag at the time which was parked out in the road and I hardly slept for about three months - kept going to the window to see if it was OK. Then I gradually relaxed - and met some of the neighbours - who in fact are mostly the salt of the earth - really kind and down to earth and genuine. Around the same time my husband discovered he had mislaid his wallet - full of cash he'd just drawn. He panicked, we retraced all the steps - and about an hour later discovered he'd left it on the end of the counter in the local Co-op. It was still where he'd left it - there had been a stream of customers since but all the money was still there - plus his cards etc. The girl behind the counter had just noticed it before we returned - 'oh, is that yours?' she grinned.

Most places have some less desirable aspects I feel - Winchester, for example, thought pretty desirable in lots of ways, definitely has another, darker side to it. So does Bath.

[Guest Gramps]

It's a fascinating subject in its own right isn't it. I wonder if the definition of bourn as a boundary comes from the fact that a stream was often used as a boundary?

Before we get too carried away with this ......we need to remember that we only have Ronksley's interpretation of a seemingly problematic name recorded by Harrison. The spelling recorded '(M)Wy Broom Well' may not even be Harrison's as it is known he brought with him several clerks from 'darn sarf' to whom (in 1637) the local dialect would have been almost impenetrable.

It's also possible that Ronksley might have been influenced by the presence of the fancifully named Woodbourn(e) Hall just a little way down the hillside from Wybourn Hall. In any case in my experience both these 'bourn(e)s' are still pronounced as 'burn'.

The seasonal stream idea is probably correct as there are indications in the area that hidden water sources were available.

[Guest CarriKP]

Before we get too carried away with this ......we need to remember that we only have Ronksley's interpretation of a seemingly problematic name recorded by Harrison. The spelling recorded '(M)Wy Broom Well' may not even be Harrison's as it is known he brought with him several clerks from 'darn sarf' to whom (in 1637) the local dialect would have been almost impenetrable.

It's also possible that Ronksley might have been influenced by the presence of the fancifully named Woodbourn(e) Hall just a little way down the hillside from Wybourn Hall. In any case in my experience both these 'bourn(e)s' are still pronounced as 'burn'.

The seasonal stream idea is probably correct as there are indications in the area that hidden water sources were available.

Yes - lots of locals do pronounce it as 'burn' don't they - which has reminded me of the Scottish 'burn' -

bùrn

water; from Scottish burn, water, spring-water, English bourne, burn, a stream, Teutonic brunnon-, a spring, Norse brunnr, well, German brunnen

(from MacBain's Dictionary)

Who said southerners only 'used' to find the local dialect almost impenetrable - ? -

(I can jest, of course, being a Bristolian by birth )

[DaveH]

In truth, I was really nervous when we first moved here because of what I'd been told. We had an (almost) vintage Jag at the time which was parked out in the road and I hardly slept for about three months - kept going to the window to see if it was OK. Then I gradually relaxed - and met some of the neighbours - who in fact are mostly the salt of the earth - really kind and down to earth and genuine. Around the same time my husband discovered he had mislaid his wallet - full of cash he'd just drawn. He panicked, we retraced all the steps - and about an hour later discovered he'd left it on the end of the counter in the local Co-op. It was still where he'd left it - there had been a stream of customers since but all the money was still there - plus his cards etc. The girl behind the counter had just noticed it before we returned - 'oh, is that yours?' she grinned.

Most places have some less desirable aspects I feel - Winchester, for example, thought pretty desirable in lots of ways, definitely has another, darker side to it. So does Bath.

That's more or less how I find the area CarriKP.

I'm not so sure about the "darker side" of Winchester and Bath though, not having visited them. I know that in general (and it's often wrong to generalise) that southerners are not as "friendly" as northerners. Having said thatyou clearly have lived in these southern cities.

I would not want to create in that statement a north - south divide either.

I remember seeing one of my "heros", the late Fred Dibnah (mainly because I am into traction engines) on TV and he had gone down south to Cambridgeshire to demolish some old factory chimneys.

The reporter / interviewer tried to provoke him, as a well known "northerner" into a north / south argument while he was in a southern pub drinking beer with no frothy head.

"So, what do you think of the north - south divide, Fred? How are you getting on with all these southerners?" That sort of thing.

His reply was brilliant

"Well most of the people are great like they are everywhere, - but you always get a few awkward b*****s wherever you go"

[RichardB]

Like I said, we have a "specialist expert" in just about every aspect of Sheffield History.

Like I tell the kids at school when I am promoting working together as a team

"Being clever is not always WHAT you know, but sometimes WHO you know"

I like that; come to think of it, I and several others here have solved some Sheffield History-related problems using only the knowledge of others.

[DaveH]

I like that; come to think of it, I and several others here have solved some Sheffield History-related problems using only the knowledge of others.

To quote the scientist Isaac Newton on some of his discoveries and realisations (eg, the laws of gravity), and his gratitude to the other scientists and mathematicians his work was developed from

"If I have seen further than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants"

Perhaps Richard, you were merely "standing on the shoulders of giants"

[Guest CarriKP]

That's more or less how I find the area CarriKP.

I'm not so sure about the "darker side" of Winchester and Bath though, not having visited them. I know that in general (and it's often wrong to generalise) that southerners are not as "friendly" as northerners. Having said thatyou clearly have lived in these southern cities.

I would not want to create in that statement a north - south divide either.

I remember seeing one of my "heros", the late Fred Dibnah (mainly because I am into traction engines) on TV and he had gone down south to Cambridgeshire to demolish some old factory chimneys.

The reporter / interviewer tried to provoke him, as a well known "northerner" into a north / south argument while he was in a southern pub drinking beer with no frothy head.

"So, what do you think of the north - south divide, Fred? How are you getting on with all these southerners?" That sort of thing.

His reply was brilliant

"Well most of the people are great like they are everywhere, - but you always get a few awkward b*****s wherever you go"

Agree - absolutely - with that philosophy! City wise I've only lived in Bristol, where I was born and went to school. and Bath, where I lived and worked in my halcyon 17th year - using the 'happy and carefree' definition of halcyon but I've worked in Winchester as a midwife.

Re: 'north-south divide' - if there used to be one it would probably have been partly due to the very heavy industrialisation in the north and the effect that had on folks' lives do you think? I think - if there was one - it's very much less now - maybe partly because people are so much more mobile - and TV opens up horizons doesn't it. Our daughter in law is a Sheffield lass and she is absolutely delightful. I haven't found any snobbery since living up here - can't say that about everywhere further south - especially some of the 'posh' villages - but then I haven't lived in little villages in the north.

I think there *may* be more extraversion in Sheffield than in some places in the south - maybe it's partly because there is more Viking blood in the ancestry ???? - according to research anyway - I believe that was suggested. But it may again just be circumstantial - ie hard lives mean people help each other - and I hope that doesn't sound patronising because we had plenty of poverty in the south!! My grandfather - in his eighties - was terrified of going to a small cottage hospital because he remembered it as the workhouse! But not so much heavy industry on the whole I think - but my knowledge of history is rather 'spasmodic' if that's the right word.

[DaveH]

Re: 'north-south divide' - if there used to be one it would probably have been partly due to the very heavy industrialisation in the north and the effect that had on folks' lives do you think?

Napoleon Bonapart once famously described the English as "A nation of shop keepers"

Someone else, an Englishman whose identity I have forgotten, went on to elaborate on Napoleons statement.

"The north of England is the factory workshop while the south of England is merely the shop window"

Although this is a gross exageration what I take it to mean is that the north of England was more industrial and produced manufactured goods whilst the south of England dealt more with trade, International sales and finance markets.

[Guest CarriKP]

Napoleon Bonapart once famously described the English as "A nation of shop keepers"

Someone else, an Englishman whose identity I have forgotten, went on to elaborate on Napoleons statement.

"The north of England is the factory workshop while the south of England is merely the shop window"

Although this is a gross exageration what I take it to mean is that the north of England was more industrial and produced manufactured goods whilst the south of England dealt more with trade, International sales and finance markets.

Maybe that's more true of the South East? I don't know.

But Bristolians manufactured quite a few things - including some rather good aircraft I believe - BAC - and successors? and cigarettes (shock horror ) - my Auntie Queenie worked at Wills & Co And just over the River Severn - in South Wales - Uncle Ern was killed in an explosion in the steelworks.

[DaveH]

Maybe that's more true of the South East? I don't know.

But Bristolians manufactured quite a few things - including some rather good aircraft I believe - BAC - and successors? and cigarettes (shock horror ) - my Auntie Queenie worked at Wills & Co And just over the River Severn - in South Wales - Uncle Ern was killed in an explosion in the steelworks.

Did say it was a gross generalisation. ;-)

[Guest CarriKP]

Did say it was a gross generalisation.

I know and I should apologise because I'm talking about Bristol and the south west when this website is about Sheffield.

[DaveH]

I know and I should apologise because I'm talking about Bristol and the south west when this website is about Sheffield.

You mat be suprised by how many of our members are NOT actually native Sheffielders but have lived here and really liked the place.

You may also be suprised by how many of our members are Sheffielders BUT have moved away to other places or even emigrated abroad.

[Guest CarriKP]

You mat be suprised by how many of our members are NOT actually native Sheffielders but have lived here and really liked the place.

You may also be suprised by how many of our members are Sheffielders BUT have moved away to other places or even emigrated abroad.

Well I like Sheffield too - but I have to say that if I got the chance to emigrate - to somewhere in France perhaps or to a Greek island - I would probably go

I read recently that Sheffield Uni has either the highest or one of the highest rates of students staying on in the city after graduating.

[DaveH]

Well I like Sheffield too - but I have to say that if I got the chance to emigrate - to somewhere in France perhaps or to a Greek island - I would probably go

I read recently that Sheffield Uni has either the highest or one of the highest rates of students staying on in the city after graduating.

Many of the teachers I work with are Sheffield University graduates, live in Sheffield, but are not originally from Sheffield.

Not suprisingly though, most of them live in the posher parts of Sheffield over the southwestern part of the City and NOT in places like Arbourthorne, the Manor and of course the Wybourn like me.

[History dude]

I have done a lot of research on Sheffield Park so I can clear up a lot of the name mysteries. Let's start with the Nunnery. In 1291 Waldingwells Nunnery (not far from Worksop) were given lands in Woodhouse, so it's likely they were given land in Sheffield Park from Thomas Furnival. It was a Benedictine order and lived under a rule, which was 'to work is to pray'. Water courses were altered by them, so hence the Kirk Dike, which is the one that flows in Deep Pit.

You mention Harrison's Survey, undertaken by John Harrison of South Lopham in Norfolk. The names in it are interesting. The "Plauch" is the area around the building that used to be the Travellers Rest. At the top side of it is marshy ground, and one meaning of that word is marsh! But the plank idea also fits in, as what better way to get over boggy ground! The private path should not be confused with City Road. That is a turnpike road constructed in 1779. The Duke of Norfolk didn't want to pay the fees, so the old path was left. The only bit left is the jennel at the side of the old bakery shop at Manor Top.

Other names include Georges Close, named after George Talbot. Stone Hurst, which was a MASSIVE wood that covered most of the Manor, filled with Sandstone rock outcrops. Blacko Plaine, cleared of trees (perhaps the odd one here and there) covered in coal outcrops. Faunsfield is where they kept th young deer. The Cundit Paine was also another cleared area, around where Deep Pits is. The Conduit was Kirk Dyke and was tapped off to supply water to Sheffield Manor. Blacko Plaine was later broken up into four sections around 1699 and in one a "New Stand" was constructed. This was on the site of Stand House School. Another Survey was done in 1685 (ACMS78) which fits a lot of the Fairbank's Map of 1795. Another pathway (using the 1795 map) to Lords Bridge can be traced coming over from Manor Lane, crossing over the stream using the said Lords Bridge, before heading up to what becomes known as Low Farm. In 1685 Edmund Corker held all the fields around the Lords Bridge, which was at the bottom of the hill going to it. So it would become known as Corker Bottoms Lane!

Around this time the Duke of Norfolk tried to improve the Park and constructed a new gate, placed around where the Netto Car Park entrance is, which was called the "new intack yate" and is clearly the two posts which can be seen at Richmond, moved by the owner of the farm, as he also had land where they were. Also constructed was a stone wall that still can be seen where the Manor Estate Boot houses used to be. The Manor lane also entered into Attercliffe via a gate, called Marshalls Yate in 1685. Named after Henry Marshall. Manor Lane itself is a much later lane and it would not have been there in Tudor times. Instead two lanes, one to the front of the Manor and one to the rear, were there then.

It's also interesting to note that Elm Tree Hill was first called Hutter Hill.

I was also able to trace the life of one of the Park Keepers from the 1637 survey. James Wardlow was born 1567 and died in 1662 aged 95! He became the keeper in 1612 aged 45, so was 70 years old when the survey was done. His nephew John Barber said in 1692, that James was told by the Lord to stop anyone using the private path through Sheffield Park, adding that the Intake Gate was always kept locked.

[Guest Philip w]

Does anyone know why the Wybourn estate is so named? I've tried searching on the net but so far have come up with no answers.

[Guest Philip w]

looking into the history of Wybourn. if anyone could offer an insight into it's history, street names, if you live or lived in Wybourn I would like to hear from you. Many thanks, Philip W

[History dude]

looking into the history of Wybourn. if anyone could offer an insight into it's history, street names, if you live or lived in Wybourn I would like to hear from you. Many thanks, Philip W

Of course my good man

It was originally part of Sheffield Park and the name seems to have come from a well which had broome growing around it.

A book you might want to look at for the estate beginings is H Keeble Hewson's Sheffield The Growth of A City. For it mentions that in 1925 28 acres around Cricket Inn Road were purchased to re-house slum clearance houses people. They were to build 340 houses, 200 of which were to be 3 bed. A fixed bath was to be installed in all, but the hot water system was only installed at 2 shillings extra to the tenant. If you didn't pay this the bath (upstairs) had to be filled by means of a hand pump in the kitchen. The houses were to be provided with gas, but not electricty.

Tenders accepted in August 1925 for 200 houses for the cost of £75,851. And in November 1925 another 54 houses at £19,226. The following March more land was bought for £4,000 for Wybourn.

It seems the estate (along with Manor Estate) came out of the 1923 Chamberlain Housing Act. This provided grants of £5 per house per year for 20 years in respect to each house completed before 1/10/1927. After that date it was reduced to £4 for 20 years for any house completed between 1/10/27 and 1/10/1929.

Another act in 1930 (Slum Cearance) allowed the Council to build 1,102 houses on Wybourn.

Street names seem to come from the Norfolk family see the Hunter's Hallamshire thread for more on his family tree and some Council people, Bassett , Wragg etc.

That should keep you busy for a bit B)

[mick851]

Of course my good man

It was originally part of Sheffield Park and the name seems to have come from a well which had broome growing around it.

A book you might want to look at for the estate beginings is H Keeble Hewson's Sheffield The Growth of A City. For it mentions that in 1925 28 acres around Cricket Inn Road were purchased to re-house slum clearance houses people. They were to build 340 houses, 200 of which were to be 3 bed. A fixed bath was to be installed in all, but the hot water system was only installed at 2 shillings extra to the tenant. If you didn't pay this the bath (upstairs) had to be filled by means of a hand pump in the kitchen. The houses were to be provided with gas, but not electricty.

Tenders accepted in August 1925 for 200 houses for the cost of £75,851. And in November 1925 another 54 houses at £19,226. The following March more land was bought for £4,000 for Wybourn.

It seems the estate (along with Manor Estate) came out of the 1923 Chamberlain Housing Act. This provided grants of £5 per house per year for 20 years in respect to each house completed before 1/10/1927. After that date it was reduced to £4 for 20 years for any house completed between 1/10/27 and 1/10/1929.

Another act in 1930 (Slum Cearance) allowed the Council to build 1,102 houses on Wybourn.

Street names seem to come from the Norfolk family see the Hunter's Hallamshire thread for more on his family tree and some Council people, Bassett , Wragg etc.

That should keep you busy for a bit

Some of my family lived at Wybourn Hall Farm before they started building the housing estate, they also had Manor Cottage Farm aswell

[Guest harestone]

Someone did their history homework! In the Harrison Survey of the Manor of Sheffield in 1637, he refers to

"Wy Broomwell,(which Ronksley who transcribed the survey thought was Wybournwell) and ye Hill Topp lying on ye west side of ye lands. Alsoe ye Plaunch lying on ye South Side of ye Mannor Railes. Also ye Cundit plaine, and Arbor Thorne Hirst lying next unto ye Lands of ye Mannor of Handsworth towards ye South East... "

A bourne is a seasonal stream, e.g. a winterbourne is a stream that only flows in winter. The Wy may refer to willow trees, Wy being the Norse word for willow. So it was a stream or well where willow trees grew. A hirst was a wooded hill.

Apologies for raising a zombie thread here but i found this interesting.

I'm wondering if the "bourne" stream refers to the one that drains from up by the castle ruins and emerges on what we know locally as "piggies field" ? which would be the one bordered by Manor Lane, Maltravers road, Maltravers Terrace and the very top end of Manor Oaks road including "the cow gennel". ?

I've lived on Wybourn for all but two of my 42 years and used to live backing onto the field and spent many happy hours playing in that stream. I don't know of any other streams it could refer to in the area.

Btw, if anyone ever has call to visit the Wybourn and would like a guide or just a local familiar face to wander with give me a shout, you'd be safe with me. ;-)

[Guest plain talker]

Around this time the Duke of Norfolk tried to improve the Park and constructed a new gate, placed around where the Netto Car Park entrance is, which was called the "new intack yate" and is clearly the two posts which can be seen at Richmond, moved by the owner of the farm, as he also had land where they were. Also constructed was a stone wall that still can be seen where the Manor Estate Boot houses used to be. The Manor lane also entered into Attercliffe via a gate, called Marshalls Yate in 1685. Named after Henry Marshall. Manor Lane itself is a much later lane and it would not have been there in Tudor times. Instead two lanes, one to the front of the Manor and one to the rear, were there then.

(ressurecting an old post, I know, but:- )

That's interesting that "Gate" was called "yate". In Norse languages, such as Swedish, a "g" is pronounced "Y"

so for example, the word yarn is written "garn" but pronounced, as we also do, "Yarn".

(In Swedish, if you wanted to tell your love that you loved them, you'd say "Jag älskar dig" which is pronounced "yay oushka dye".)

In Scots dialect, anything "good" is often described as "braw". In Swedish, the word is "bra" (pronounced in the Scottish way, braw)

I find languages so interesting! :D

[RichardB]

No apologies needed, nice to see things brought back to life with new input.

Apologies for raising a zombie thread here but i found this interesting.

[History dude]

(ressurecting an old post, I know, but:- )

That's interesting that "Gate" was called "yate". In Norse languages, such as Swedish, a "g" is pronounced "Y"

so for example, the word yarn is written "garn" but pronounced, as we also do, "Yarn".

(In Swedish, if you wanted to tell your love that you loved them, you'd say "Jag älskar dig" which is pronounced "yay oushka dye".)

In Scots dialect, anything "good" is often described as "braw". In Swedish, the word is "bra" (pronounced in the Scottish way, braw)

I find languages so interesting! :D

Of course by that time the English language had taken on many words from other languages including Old Norse. So by speaking English you have an undertsanding in several others. However anyone who knew only another language would only spot certain words to be the same listening to someone speaking English.

Which is bizzare when you think about it!

[ukelele lady]

(ressurecting an old post, I know, but:- )

That's interesting that "Gate" was called "yate". In Norse languages, such as Swedish, a "g" is pronounced "Y"

so for example, the word yarn is written "garn" but pronounced, as we also do, "Yarn".

(In Swedish, if you wanted to tell your love that you loved them, you'd say "Jag älskar dig" which is pronounced "yay oushka dye".)

In Scots dialect, anything "good" is often described as "braw". In Swedish, the word is "bra" (pronounced in the Scottish way, braw)

I find languages so interesting! :D

Did you ever learn Esperanto? I did many years ago .

It was going to be the big thing, the first modern universal language.

What happened to that I wonder, it all seems to have fizzled out now and

no one seems to mention it.