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Another One For `daveh`


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Waterside Echo

I have not been able to use the phone or computer very often this last couple of weeks due to faulty telephone wiring. The wire that came from outside was a twin strand cable and needed replacing, this was done free of charge., The new cable from outside has now got 4 strands, black, green, orange and white, the black and green have not been used just the orange going to the indoor white with blue ring and the white to the blue with white ring. In the late 60s our outside cable had 8 coloured wires but I don`t remember how many were used for the telephone to work [it was a party line] I might as well replace all the indoor cables now but my question is this, why do all the extention cables now have 6 or 8 strands in them when only 2 are needed ? W/E.

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I have not been able to use the phone or computer very often this last couple of weeks due to faulty telephone wiring. The wire that came from outside was a twin strand cable and needed replacing, this was done free of charge., The new cable from outside has now got 4 strands, black, green, orange and white, the black and green have not been used just the orange going to the indoor white with blue ring and the white to the blue with white ring. In the late 60s our outside cable had 8 coloured wires but I don`t remember how many were used for the telephone to work [it was a party line] I might as well replace all the indoor cables now but my question is this, why do all the extention cables now have 6 or 8 strands in them when only 2 are needed ? W/E.

Well Waterside Echo,

Although you have titled this thread "another one for DaveH" it is a question about telephone systems, and as my best mate for 40 odd years, Stuart0742 has spent about 25 of those years working as a telephone engineer for BT he is probably the best person to ask rather than me.

Another example of "It isn't WHAT you know that counts, but WHO you know", being clever is often just a matter of knowing the right person with the answer.

So, in "Who wants to be a millionaire" style, I will ask a friend.

Over to you Stuart0742.

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Stuart0742

I have not been able to use the phone or computer very often this last couple of weeks due to faulty telephone wiring. The wire that came from outside was a twin strand cable and needed replacing, this was done free of charge., The new cable from outside has now got 4 strands, black, green, orange and white, the black and green have not been used just the orange going to the indoor white with blue ring and the white to the blue with white ring. In the late 60s our outside cable had 8 coloured wires but I don`t remember how many were used for the telephone to work [it was a party line] I might as well replace all the indoor cables now but my question is this, why do all the extention cables now have 6 or 8 strands in them when only 2 are needed ? W/E.

Hi W/E

Basically a telephone line is 1 pair or wires from the exchange to your house, its always been like that. You mention having 8 in the 60's, this would only have been from the point the BT/PO external cable finished and then into your house. For example if you lived in a flat, the Post Office external cable could have finished some way from your own flat. They probably used 8 wire cable because they had some spare, only 2 wires would have been used.

The overhead external cable BT use nowadays as you say has 2 pairs of wires, but only one is used, unless you have 2 lines then both would be used. The second pair could also be used if the 1st went faulty.

The internal cable - in days gone by we would have 1 phone connected to the end of the 1 pair of wires from the eachange, then people wanted extensions, due to the way telephones were designed and worked, in order for the bells to ring correctly 3 wires were required for internal extensions, therefore 4 wire (2 pair cable was used)

Then came sockets, in theory the master socket fitted by BT replaces the 1st hard wired telephone, all further slave sockets are equivalent to extensions and therefore require 3 wires.

However to simplify things in this DIY world its all been dumbed down to help people, Each phone socket has 6 connection even though only 4 connect through to the telephone, therefore 6 wire cable has become standard.

You connect terminal 1 to 1, 2 to 2 etc you can't go wrong

If you are running your Broadband through your internal wiring I would suggest using the best cable you can get, (ie thicker wires)

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Stuart0742

Hi W/E

...........

Then came sockets, in theory the master socket fitted by BT replaces the 1st hard wired telephone, all further slave sockets are equivalent to extensions and therefore require 3 wires.

However to simplify things in this DIY world its all been dumbed down to help people, Each phone socket has 6 connection even though only 4 connect through to the telephone, therefore 6 wire cable has become standard.

You connect terminal 1 to 1, 2 to 2 etc you can't go wrong

If you are running your Broadband through your internal wiring I would suggest using the best cable you can get, (ie thicker wires)

Another tip

Don't use these external broadband filters, that plug in. You can buy sockets with them built in they are the same size as normal sockets but have a built in filter and 2 sockets on the front 1 marked "Phone" 1 marked "ASDL" or similar.

This cuts down loss and are less prone to knocks and faults.

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Hi W/E

Basically a telephone line is 1 pair or wires from the exchange to your house, its always been like that. You mention having 8 in the 60's, this would only have been from the point the BT/PO external cable finished and then into your house. For example if you lived in a flat, the Post Office external cable could have finished some way from your own flat. They probably used 8 wire cable because they had some spare, only 2 wires would have been used.

The overhead external cable BT use nowadays as you say has 2 pairs of wires, but only one is used, unless you have 2 lines then both would be used. The second pair could also be used if the 1st went faulty.

The internal cable - in days gone by we would have 1 phone connected to the end of the 1 pair of wires from the eachange, then people wanted extensions, due to the way telephones were designed and worked, in order for the bells to ring correctly 3 wires were required for internal extensions, therefore 4 wire (2 pair cable was used)

Then came sockets, in theory the master socket fitted by BT replaces the 1st hard wired telephone, all further slave sockets are equivalent to extensions and therefore require 3 wires.

However to simplify things in this DIY world its all been dumbed down to help people, Each phone socket has 6 connection even though only 4 connect through to the telephone, therefore 6 wire cable has become standard.

You connect terminal 1 to 1, 2 to 2 etc you can't go wrong

If you are running your Broadband through your internal wiring I would suggest using the best cable you can get, (ie thicker wires)

I told you he would know lol

Played my "It's a knock out" Joker card there! ;-)

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Waterside Echo

I told you he would know lol

Played my "It's a knock out" Joker card there! ;-)

Thankyou Dave and Steve. I have just checked all the extension sockets and all 5 of them have only 2 wires connected, blue with white ring to 2 terminal and white with blue ring to terminal 5. These sockets are only used for broadband so I have no idea if the phone would ring if one was pluged in. I will get stuck in on a re-wire next week and report back. Regards, W/E.

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Thankyou Dave and Steve. I have just checked all the extension sockets and all 5 of them have only 2 wires connected, blue with white ring to 2 terminal and white with blue ring to terminal 5. These sockets are only used for broadband so I have no idea if the phone would ring if one was pluged in. I will get stuck in on a re-wire next week and report back. Regards, W/E.

Steve!!! :blink:

For the last 43 years I had thought his name was Stuart <_<

what a revellation, - you learn something new every day lol

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Waterside Echo

Steve!!! :blink:

For the last 43 years I had thought his name was Stuart <_<

what a revellation, - you learn something new every day lol

Its all very well for you two but all the signs seem to be there, who was it who sung` they are coming to take me away ha ha`.? Anyway back to the plot. I have checked all the sockets today and broadband works on all of them.On three, the dialing tone is there and you can ring out but it does not ring in, on the other two as soon as the phone is plugged in it just rings. The only one that does everything it should is the main B T socket. W/E.

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RichardB

Another example of "It isn't WHAT you know that counts, but WHO you know", being clever is often just a matter of knowing the right person with the answer.

So, in "Who wants to be a millionaire" style, I will ask a friend.

A reason SheffieldHistoryworks well, there are plty of subjects I know nothing about - transport is my particular weak spot - but there's usually someone around that knows or knows someone that knows.

If any of our newer Members have an undisclosed area of expertise then please disclose it ! The more talented individuals we have knowledge of the better.

I'm OK on Pubs by the way ... :rolleyes:

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Its all very well for you two but all the signs seem to be there, who was it who sung` they are coming to take me away ha ha`.? Anyway back to the plot. I have checked all the sockets today and broadband works on all of them.On three, the dialing tone is there and you can ring out but it does not ring in, on the other two as soon as the phone is plugged in it just rings. The only one that does everything it should is the main B T socket. W/E.

It was someone who went under the name of Napoleon XIV (Napoleon the fourteenth) in 1966.

He did have an album out at the time but all his songs seemed to be about insanity and mental illness, - not the best of subjects to sing about so he soon disapeared.

There was a follow up record by someone called Josaphine XIV called "I'm glad they've taken you away"

It was like a female version of the original "they are coming to take me away" and she sounded even more mad than him!

Not only is the song annoying it was a long time favourite of aspiring guitarists that couldn't play much as the entire song is based on just 1 chord.

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A reason SheffieldHistoryworks well, there are plty of subjects I know nothing about - transport is my particular weak spot - but there's usually someone around that knows or knows someone that knows.

If any of our Members have an undisclosed area of expertise then please disclose it ! The more talented individuals we have knowledge of the better.

I'm OK on Pubs by the way ... :rolleyes:

Now as this is a child friendly family site Richard, - I may have some undisclosed talents that it just wouldn't be right to disclose on here. ;-) lol

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Hi W/E

Basically a telephone line is 1 pair or wires from the exchange to your house, its always been like that. You mention having 8 in the 60's, this would only have been from the point the BT/PO external cable finished and then into your house. For example if you lived in a flat, the Post Office external cable could have finished some way from your own flat. They probably used 8 wire cable because they had some spare, only 2 wires would have been used.

The overhead external cable BT use nowadays as you say has 2 pairs of wires, but only one is used, unless you have 2 lines then both would be used. The second pair could also be used if the 1st went faulty.

The internal cable - in days gone by we would have 1 phone connected to the end of the 1 pair of wires from the eachange, then people wanted extensions, due to the way telephones were designed and worked, in order for the bells to ring correctly 3 wires were required for internal extensions, therefore 4 wire (2 pair cable was used)

Then came sockets, in theory the master socket fitted by BT replaces the 1st hard wired telephone, all further slave sockets are equivalent to extensions and therefore require 3 wires.

However to simplify things in this DIY world its all been dumbed down to help people, Each phone socket has 6 connection even though only 4 connect through to the telephone, therefore 6 wire cable has become standard.

You connect terminal 1 to 1, 2 to 2 etc you can't go wrong

If you are running your Broadband through your internal wiring I would suggest using the best cable you can get, (ie thicker wires)

Also worth a mention the spare set of telephone wires can be used for security line monitoring . This could be for a fire or burglar alarm system in the home. BT have the red care system, when more complex security is required seperate screened cables might be used.

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Also worth a mention the spare set of telephone wires can be used for security line monitoring . This could be for a fire or burglar alarm system in the home. BT have the red care system, when more complex security is required seperate screened cables might be used.

OK, spare wires.

I get my TV from Virgin Media (VM cable TV) and Stuart gets his from SKY.

In the last couple of years we have both moved up to their plus (+) service.

Both of these allow you to record one programme and watch another, or in the case of VM record 2 programmes and watch another, simultaneously.

Now when I had the VM+ put in the engineer simply brought in and fitted a new box to replace the existing one, with a new zapper to control it, and that was it.

Stuart tells me that when he got Sky+ as well as changing the box they had to run extra cabling between his Sky dish and the box to allow for recording 1 channel while watching another, in fact he was told that each additional channel to be received simultaneously would require an additional cable to the box.

Why is this?

OK so the box may need several tuners to pick out the simultaneously required channels but ALL the signals for ALL the available channels are available at the dish and at the end of a single cable from it, - they are merely at different frequencies which the tuner (or tuners) can sort out.

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OK, spare wires.

I get my TV from Virgin Media (VM cable TV) and Stuart gets his from SKY.

In the last couple of years we have both moved up to their plus (+) service.

Both of these allow you to record one programme and watch another, or in the case of VM record 2 programmes and watch another, simultaneously.

Now when I had the VM+ put in the engineer simply brought in and fitted a new box to replace the existing one, with a new zapper to control it, and that was it.

Stuart tells me that when he got Sky+ as well as changing the box they had to run extra cabling between his Sky dish and the box to allow for recording 1 channel while watching another, in fact he was told that each additional channel to be received simultaneously would require an additional cable to the box.

Why is this?

OK so the box may need several tuners to pick out the simultaneously required channels but ALL the signals for ALL the available channels are available at the dish and at the end of a single cable from it, - they are merely at different frequencies which the tuner (or tuners) can sort out.

As i was trying to point out security line monitoring is secure so needs its own spare wires. You would not send other signals over a secure line but the ones that are dedicated to it. this is because the signal or pulse sent down the line has its own unique encription and decryption. I understand Stuart0742 was a BT engineer so he may know more about the redcare (monitoring)

When i was an alarm engineer some years ago BT would come along after i finished an instalation and connect to the monitoring station if the system fitted required this.

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hilldweller

OK, spare wires.

I get my TV from Virgin Media (VM cable TV) and Stuart gets his from SKY.

In the last couple of years we have both moved up to their plus (+) service.

Both of these allow you to record one programme and watch another, or in the case of VM record 2 programmes and watch another, simultaneously.

Now when I had the VM+ put in the engineer simply brought in and fitted a new box to replace the existing one, with a new zapper to control it, and that was it.

Stuart tells me that when he got Sky+ as well as changing the box they had to run extra cabling between his Sky dish and the box to allow for recording 1 channel while watching another, in fact he was told that each additional channel to be received simultaneously would require an additional cable to the box.

Why is this?

OK so the box may need several tuners to pick out the simultaneously required channels but ALL the signals for ALL the available channels are available at the dish and at the end of a single cable from it, - they are merely at different frequencies which the tuner (or tuners) can sort out.

I think this might be because some channels are sent horizontally polarised and some vertically and your box puts a different standing voltage on the lead to the LNB on the dish according to which channel you have selected. A normal LNB can only deal with one polarization at a time and if the channels you are watching and recording are on different polarizations you need a special LNB and twin cables-------------- I think !!!

HD

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I think this might be because some channels are sent horizontally polarised and some vertically and your box puts a different standing voltage on the lead to the LNB on the dish according to which channel you have selected. A normal LNB can only deal with one polarization at a time and if the channels you are watching and recording are on different polarizations you need a special LNB and twin cables-------------- I think !!!

HD

Well the VM system, using cable, has no polarisation as it is just a signal down a cable (fibre optic in places as well) so that would get around the problem and explain how one cable can do it all.

As the Sky system still relies on a transmitted signal, - although it is between an Earth orbiting satellite and the dish, it will be polarised and it would be possible to use different polarisations on different channels, so that would probably explain our original experiences.

By the way hilldweller,

In your interests listed to the right of your posts one of them is listed as "driving my charriot (at 8mph)"

Now 8mph is an interesting speed as it was one of the limits set on steam road traction in the early 20th century.

Is your "charriot" by any chance a steam road locomotive? <_<

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hilldweller

Well the VM system, using cable, has no polarisation as it is just a signal down a cable (fibre optic in places as well) so that would get around the problem and explain how one cable can do it all.

As the Sky system still relies on a transmitted signal, - although it is between an Earth orbiting satellite and the dish, it will be polarised and it would be possible to use different polarisations on different channels, so that would probably explain our original experiences.

By the way hilldweller,

In your interests listed to the right of your posts one of them is listed as "driving my charriot (at 8mph)"

Now 8mph is an interesting speed as it was one of the limits set on steam road traction in the early 20th century.

Is your "charriot" by any chance a steam road locomotive? <_<

If only it was DaveH.

I'm afraid the explanation is much more mundane.

My limited mobilty means that I can no longer enjoy the walks I once used to make up on the roads around Hallam Head. This was getting me down and so when I came into a small legacy my wife suggested I buy myself a mobilty scooter. Because of the terrain and state of the roads I purchased a sort of "Hummer" of the mobility scooter world with big wheels, independent sprung suspension, a 2 horsepower motor operating off 2-12 volt 80 A/Hr batteries and full lights etc. In other words a "class 3 road-going mobilty scooter". It has to have a tax disk (free) but does not need to display a registration plate. It does have a switch to limit the speed to 4 mph when on the pavement.

It slows a bit when going up Roper Hill but it's taken me miles in the two years I've had it. I usually include the Redmires Dams in my "walks" and it gets me a bit of fresh air.

Range is supposed to be around 35 miles but I suspect that on our hills you could halve that. It's been one of the best things I ever purchased and I'm sad that they all seem to be made in Taiwan but the engineering on mine is first class. I had the inner tubes puncture proofed because I wouldn't want to push it back from Redmires (even If I could) and it weighs 3 hundredweights. At that weight insurance whilst not compulsary is a very good idea.

I remember attending a steam rally I came across when cycling as a lad at Wadworth Hall near Conisborough. I was fascinated, especially with a steam car with a flash boiler owned by a rather eccentric old lady and a huge working "Shamrock"

I came home black as the proverbial but happy as larry.

HD

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If only it was DaveH.

I'm afraid the explanation is much more mundane.

My limited mobilty means that I can no longer enjoy the walks I once used to make up on the roads around Hallam Head. This was getting me down and so when I came into a small legacy my wife suggested I buy myself a mobilty scooter. Because of the terrain and state of the roads I purchased a sort of "Hummer" of the mobility scooter world with big wheels, independent sprung suspension, a 2 horsepower motor operating off 2-12 volt 80 A/Hr batteries and full lights etc. In other words a "class 3 road-going mobilty scooter". It has to have a tax disk (free) but does not need to display a registration plate. It does have a switch to limit the speed to 4 mph when on the pavement.

It slows a bit when going up Roper Hill but it's taken me miles in the two years I've had it. I usually include the Redmires Dams in my "walks" and it gets me a bit of fresh air.

Range is supposed to be around 35 miles but I suspect that on our hills you could halve that. It's been one of the best things I ever purchased and I'm sad that they all seem to be made in Taiwan but the engineering on mine is first class. I had the inner tubes puncture proofed because I wouldn't want to push it back from Redmires (even If I could) and it weighs 3 hundredweights. At that weight insurance whilst not compulsary is a very good idea.

I remember attending a steam rally I came across when cycling as a lad at Wadworth Hall near Conisborough. I was fascinated, especially with a steam car with a flash boiler owned by a rather eccentric old lady and a huge working "Shamrock"

I came home black as the proverbial but happy as larry.

HD

I hadn't thought of mobility vehicles :huh:

It all sounded very steam engine -ish to me.

The only 2 makes of steam car you see at rallies are Whites and Stanley, both of which made vehicles with flash boilers and all of which were capable of well over your 8mph limit as steam cars by then were not governed by an archaic "red flag acts"

Interestingly a company called Haleson made a steam motorcycle. I have only ever seen one once and fortunately it was in steam and being ridden around at a rally.

I would love to have a go on one of those.

There are only 2 steam powered shamrocks, the only one likely to be rallied in this part of the country is the one owned for many years by the late Harry Lee which was called Harry Lee's Steam Yatchs.

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Stuart0742

As i was trying to point out security line monitoring is secure so needs its own spare wires. You would not send other signals over a secure line but the ones that are dedicated to it. this is because the signal or pulse sent down the line has its own unique encription and decryption. I understand Stuart0742 was a BT engineer so he may know more about the redcare (monitoring)

When i was an alarm engineer some years ago BT would come along after i finished an instalation and connect to the monitoring station if the system fitted required this.

Its some time ago now, but wasn't Redcare run as a carrier system (1 + 1) over the top of the telephone line, hence only 1 pair of wires would be needed.

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Its some time ago now, but wasn't Redcare run as a carrier system (1 + 1) over the top of the telephone line, hence only 1 pair of wires would be needed.

Some of the old systems like the old auto diallers and some (but not all) digital comunicators were run over a normal line (non monitored). I was taught at college that alarms that are carried directly by line to a monitoring station must be sepperated (different wires ) Redcare is a very secure system any cut in the phone wires or tampering will alert the monitoring station.

Every monitored alarm system has its own unique signal that cannot be replicated. Its my understanding that every line has a number even the seperate monitored ones but this is only for testing the line . In theory

your correct that the signal can be sent over the same line as your normal telephone. However i think this would cause certain complications. I must also point out that it is mostly commercial premises i was familiar with but i presume all systems fitted in homes with redcare or similar are the same. Some security systems are backed up by GSM in case of line fault or failure.

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Waterside Echo

I hadn't thought of mobility vehicles :huh:

It all sounded very steam engine -ish to me.

The only 2 makes of steam car you see at rallies are Whites and Stanley, both of which made vehicles with flash boilers and all of which were capable of well over your 8mph limit as steam cars by then were not governed by an archaic "red flag acts"

Interestingly a company called Haleson made a steam motorcycle. I have only ever seen one once and fortunately it was in steam and being ridden around at a rally.

I would love to have a go on one of those.

There are only 2 steam powered shamrocks, the only one likely to be rallied in this part of the country is the one owned for many years by the late Harry Lee which was called Harry Lee's Steam Yatchs.

Telephones to steamers.- In America, to drive a steam car you had to have a locomotive engineer`s licence. Did that apply over here also.?

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Telephones to steamers.- In America, to drive a steam car you had to have a locomotive engineer`s licence. Did that apply over here also.?

Not as far as I know, - you only needed a normal licence to drive a car, - and at the time they were built there wouldn't even be a driving test to take.

Traction engines, which are classed as agricultural vehicles, are driven on normal driving licenceswithout a weight restriction but steam rollers have their own licence class (Group G, road roller).

Our regulations on this may seem very lax but a locomotive engineers licence wouldn't be much use for a road steam vehicle really.

Locomotives run on fairly level tracks and can only go where the track takes them. The real skill with driving a road vehicle, weather it is steam powered or not is in negotiating steep gradients, steering it in the right direction and avoiding other obstacles in your way none of which really apply to locomotives.

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Every monitored alarm system has its own unique signal that cannot be replicated.

So why can't it be replicated? <_<

Not that I have any criminal intentions but that definately sounds like a bit of a challenge.

If we can crack the Enigma Code then we should be up for deciphering these alarm signals. lol

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