Old trams...could they still run??

[DaveH]

I think Mega Monty has hit the nail on the head

If the 1st generation trams can't be fitted with the signalling transponders easily/cheaply, (who would pay for anyway), then not only will these trams not be able to operate the points, the signallimg would also be inoperable. Supertram would not be able to gain a license or what ever agreement to run these trams.

Its a great idea to celebrate 50 years since the end of the 1st generation trams, but now looks like a non starter.

Unless somebody knows different.

Take a quote from the inventors bible, section on "calculated obsolescence"

When your new invention is just an updated version of something that already exists be sure to build in an element of incompatibility such that the older version will not work on the newer. This guarantees that users of the older system will have to invest in the newer system creating more sales and hence more profit.

Tom Edison had a version of it what more or less said, invent something that only just works or works very badly and then over a period of years replace it several times with something that is just marginally better than the previous version. again this has the same effect on sales and profits.

MicroSoft knew this from the start, which is why for the last 15 years every version of their operating system has merely been "Windows 95, - with a few bits extra". We didn't need to upgrade, we were effectively forced to in order to maintain their sales.

Likewise I still think that the modern Supertram doesn't offer anything more in terms of transport over a "first Generation" electric tram. They both get you from A to B and there is little difference in speed.

[Stuart0742]

Take a quote from the inventors bible, section on "calculated obsolescence"

When your new invention is just an updated version of something that already exists be sure to build in an element of incompatibility such that the older version will not work on the newer. This guarantees that users of the older system will have to invest in the newer system creating more sales and hence more profit.

Tom Edison had a version of it what more or less said, invent something that only just works or works very badly and then over a period of years replace it several times with something that is just marginally better than the previous version. again this has the same effect on sales and profits.

MicroSoft knew this from the start, which is why for the last 15 years every version of their operating system has merely been "Windows 95, - with a few bits extra". We didn't need to upgrade, we were effectively forced to in order to maintain their sales.

Likewise I still think that the modern Supertram doesn't offer anything more in terms of transport over a "first Generation" electric tram. They both get you from A to B and there is little difference in speed.

Thats all true, but you have forgotten the Health and safety police, nowadays the driver is trusted to drive his (of her) tram he needs to be told what the signals are telling him etc etc. I agree with your last statement, but the Health & Safety police would not.

The there's Public Liability insurance, that would ba a nightmare, you could not trust joe public to use a 1st generation tram with out hurting himself and claiming.

So its not a technical issue its a nanny state issue.

[DaveH]

Thats all true, but you have forgotten the Health and safety police, nowadays the driver is trusted to drive his (of her) tram he needs to be told what the signals are telling him etc etc. I agree with your last statement, but the Health & Safety police would not.

The there's Public Liability insurance, that would ba a nightmare, you could not trust joe public to use a 1st generation tram with out hurting himself and claiming.

So its not a technical issue its a nanny state issue.

Are you (or the Health and safety police) trying to tell me that the modern Supertram is safer than an old tram?

As I understand it both tram systems, new and old have excellent safety records.

Then again I was once coming home on the Supertram which was turning the corner from Park Grange Road onto City Road when a gang of yobs off the Manor stood outside the Travellers Rest decided to lob a load of half house bricks at the tram before running off down the lane across Deep Pits round the back of the cemetry and back onto the Manor.

Now that was dangerous and frightening, - no fault of the tram, the company or the driver and staff on board, just a load of yobs.

I don't suppose Health and Safety regulations, Health & Safety police, or even the real police have much of a solution to that one.

[DaveH]

In the late 90's I worked on the signalling for the Supertram Network. South Yorkshire Supertram as it was then known purchased an old single deck tram for £1 from Berlin and had it shipped over to Sheffield, it was known by staff as the Berlin Tram and resided on the tracks within the Nunnery Depot.

I thought I had read that right the first time but had to take another look to check I wasn't seeing things

An old tram in working condition for £1

It's worth more than that as scrap, - what a bargain.

They don't do a nice line in quality second hand cars for £1 as well do they? lol

[jiginc]

See they do fit well almost!!

Looks like it's the only way we shall see them.

How about the other way round. New on Old

Just a thought they don't have to take passengers just run up and down High Street give us all a thrill.

jiginc

[Guest mega_monty]

....was actually nicknamed Adolf at first , later changed to Herman ( the German) !!!!!!!! - Heres a pic at Nunnery depot .......

Yes you're correct I'd forgotten his name as its been quite few years ago, what I meant the project name was known as the Berlin Tram, for paperwork sake we couldn't call him Adolf. Thanks for the attaching the picture thats great as I was 100% sure I remember the tram was sat on actual Supertram tracks at Nunnery depot, this clearly shows its possible for an older generation of tram to fit on the tracks.

I thought Adolf may have been tram 3006 at Crich but when looking at your picture he looks smaller than 3006, but I do seem to recall he was donated to Crich rather than for scrap. In your picture you can see a Supertram behind Adolf in Stagecoach colours so I imagine at this time Adolf was awaiting his fate and the project cancelled.

[Guest mega_monty]

Are you (or the Health and safety police) trying to tell me that the modern Supertram is safer than an old tram?

As I understand it both tram systems, new and old have excellent safety records.

Its not about the Supertram being safer than an older generation tram, its about being able to comply to current relevent regulations in order to gain a licence to operate a tram as a passenger service vehicle. The Berlin tram or Adolf was never intended to be a passenger service vehicle only carrying staff, tools and materials, looking back now I'm not sure just to carry out these tasks he would have complied to relevent regulations and hence the project being scrapped.

[Guest mega_monty]

I thought I had read that right the first time but had to take another look to check I wasn't seeing things

An old tram in working condition for £1

It's worth more than that as scrap, - what a bargain.

They don't do a nice line in quality second hand cars for £1 as well do they?

Yes what a bargain, but.... I have no idea how much it must have cost to ship from Berlin to the Nunnery Depot.

[Guest transit]

Its not about the Supertram being safer than an older generation tram, its about being able to comply to current relevent regulations in order to gain a licence to operate a tram as a passenger service vehicle. The Berlin tram or Adolf was never intended to be a passenger service vehicle only carrying staff, tools and materials, looking back now I'm not sure just to carry out these tasks he would have complied to relevent regulations and hence the project being scrapped.

....apparently a Blackpool Balloon tram is currently being "rebuilt" at both ends to comply with modern safety and restricted visibility issues , and also wheelchair access entrances. Dont know how many more may have to be rebuilt like this to keep them running in the future ? :o

[DaveH]

Its not about the Supertram being safer than an older generation tram, its about being able to comply to current relevent regulations in order to gain a licence to operate a tram as a passenger service vehicle. The Berlin tram or Adolf was never intended to be a passenger service vehicle only carrying staff, tools and materials, looking back now I'm not sure just to carry out these tasks he would have complied to relevent regulations and hence the project being scrapped.

Looks like Stuart0742 was right about the health and safety police then, - too much of a nanny state over cautiousness just in case someone who hasn't really been injured much decides to make a legal case out of it using one of these "no win no fee" firms of solicitors who are always on the look out to make a bit of money out of nowt.

[Waterside Echo]

Looks like Stuart0742 was right about the health and safety police then, - too much of a nanny state over cautiousness just in case someone who hasn't really been injured much decides to make a legal case out of it using one of these "no win no fee" firms of solicitors who are always on the look out to make a bit of money out of nowt.

And that was the main reason the Routemasters were taken out of service early in London. A notice on all open platformed buses stated this~ All passengers entering or leaving whilst the vehicle is in motion do so at their own risk. This rule worked perfectly well until the claim culture people raised their ugly heads. W/E.

[Guest transit]

And that was the main reason the Routemasters were taken out of service early in London. A notice on all open platformed buses stated this~ All passengers entering or leaving whilst the vehicle is in motion do so at their own risk. This rule worked perfectly well until the claim culture people raised their ugly heads. W/E.

[Guest transit]

....the "Boris Routemaster" .....http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=3184&categoryid=0

[Guest transit]

....the "Boris Routemaster" .....http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=3184&categoryid=0

...apparently may still have an "open at times" rear platform ??? !!!

[DaveH]

And that was the main reason the Routemasters were taken out of service early in London. A notice on all open platformed buses stated this~ All passengers entering or leaving whilst the vehicle is in motion do so at their own risk. This rule worked perfectly well until the claim culture people raised their ugly heads. W/E.

Got to be some very clever legal loophole here, -

"At their own risk" can't actually be interpreted any differently can it?

It means that you take responsibility for your own actions, and their consequences, if you do what the notice effectively asks you not to.

I assume that a sign of this type has no legal value to act as a defence.