Old trams...could they still run??

[andyrad]

With all this about current Blackpool trams, the design of which goes back to the 1930's,

allow me to turn the original question around to answer it in a different sort of way.

Instead of

"Could Sheffield's old trams still run on the modern Supertram network?"

how about answering the question

"Could Blackpool's excellent old tram network run a modern Supertram without modification?"

As if we can answer either of these questions then the answer to the other one must logically be the same

yeah good point, I remember 513 running in Blackpool for a while so we know that sheffield's old trams can run on the Blackpool network at least

[DaveH]

yeah good point, I remember 513 running in Blackpool for a while so we know that sheffield's old trams can run on the Blackpool network at least

But a supertram in Blackpool?

Even if it could it just wouldn't look right <_<

[Guest transit]

But a supertram in Blackpool?

Even if it could it just wouldn't look right

....Blackpool ARE to get their own version of Supertram ! .........

[DaveH]

....Blackpool ARE to get their own version of Supertram ! .........

So that sort of answers it in a round about sort of way.

If a Supertram can run on Blackpools old tram network, which can also handle old Sheffield trams....

... then logically the Sheffield Supertram network SHOULD be able to still handle the old Sheffield trams.

[Stuart0742]

So that sort of answers it in a round about sort of way.

If a Supertram can run on Blackpools old tram network, which can also handle old Sheffield trams....

... then logically the Sheffield Supertram network SHOULD be able to still handle the old Sheffield trams.

No they are upgrading the Blackpool network for the new trams

[DaveH]

No they are upgrading the Blackpool network for the new trams

So does that mean that after the upgrade they will only be able to use "Supertrams" and that their old trams will cease to be able to run?

[Guest bus man]

The old trams will be restricted to the prom section they wont be allowed to fleetwood

[DaveH]

The old trams will be restricted to the prom section they wont be allowed to fleetwood

Logically then, it now looks as though the old Sheffield trams would not be able to run on the Supertram network.

Any ideas where the incompatibities in the 2 systems are?

[Guest transit]

Logically then, it now looks as though the old Sheffield trams would not be able to run on the Supertram network.

Any ideas where the incompatibities in the 2 systems are?

...i would think it would all be down to the track "gauge" . The "old" Sheffield trams would have run on imperial measured standard GB width track , whereas the modern , wider "Supertram" would be metric and probably to a "european standard" to suit the German made trams and was laid as to suit the "new" tram , because it did not have to be adapted to existing , original track , so no thought or consideration was given to trying to run the "old" trams . Can any tram engineers confirm this ?

Thats my theory anyway !!!!!???? :unsure:

[DaveH]

...i would think it would all be down to the track "gauge" . The "old" Sheffield trams would have run on imperial measured standard GB width track , whereas the modern , wider "Supertram" would be metric and probably to a "european standard" to suit the German made trams and was laid as to suit the "new" tram , because it did not have to be adapted to existing , original track , so no thought or consideration was given to trying to run the "old" trams . Can any tram engineers confirm this ?

Thats my theory anyway !!!!!????

I thought the whole of the civilised world used standard Roman charriot gauge of 4 foot 8 and a bit for everything.

The Supertram route to Meadowhell used part of the old Railway line which was definately standard imperial railway gauge so I can't see it being a gauge problem.

[Guest Falls2]

I thought the whole of the civilised world used standard Roman charriot gauge of 4 foot 8 and a bit for everything.

The Supertram route to Meadowhell used part of the old Railway line which was definately standard imperial railway gauge so I can't see it being a gauge problem.

Don't forget the half inch in the gauge. Only in England could we have come up with a crazy thing like 4ft - 8.5 inch. (or 1435mm in Christian Units)

In my apprenticeship days, such dimensions were called "poopydoo Sizes". Do they still use this term?

Regards

[DaveH]

Don't forget the half inch in the gauge. Only in England could we have come up with a crazy thing like 4ft - 8.5 inch. (or 1435mm in Christian Units)

In my apprenticeship days, such dimensions were called "Bastard Sizes". Do they still use this term?

Regards

The great engineer Isambard Kingdom Brunnel advocated a 7 foot gauge (then again, why 7 feet? 7 is a prime number and so is not a "nice" number mathematically speaking, - 6 feet or 8 feet would have sounded better) and although he used it on the GWR (Gods Wonderful Railway) it never really caught on universally.

Having said somewhere else in another thread that I once read a book called the "History of Railways 1500 - 1750" which covers that interesting period in Railway development BEFORE trains were invented this is in fact true and it deals with horse drawn carts carrting heavy loads on which the carts run on rails. Even then the gauge was 4Ft. 8.5in. so the origin of the gauge predates train technology and goes back to horse and carts, - probably something to do with the ruts that their wheels left in soft land.

I have always called it "Roman charriot gauge" as I am sure the Romans in their perfection in building would have standardised the wheel gauges of their vehicles to run on their excellent very straight roads but Stuart informs me that this is a myth which has become an accepted piece of folklore so perhaps not.

But it would be nice to know where this (and other) odd (bastard) measurements came from, - anybody know?

[jiginc]

Information from Wikipedia.

The track

Detail of the Supertram track.

The network is 29 km (18 miles) long, with 60 km of track.[11] It features two types of track; tramway track where either pedestrians or road traffic share the right of way and ballasted railway track when there are no such requirements. Tramway track consists of a grooved tramway rail set into a concrete base with troughs into which the rails are laid. Most of the track is on-street using 35G-section grooved tram rail, with BS11-80A 80 lb/yd flat-bottom rail elsewhere.[11] The railway track was supplied by British Steel Track Products of Workington and laid on sleepers consisting of concrete blocks with steel ties which gives a spring feeling when travelling on these sections. The track is laid on a bed of ballast which in turn rests on a prepared formation. Street crossings are usually laid with grooved tramway rails.

[edit] The overhead wiring

Supertram is powered through 12 electric substations and fed through 1.07 cm diameter overhead line equipment (OHLE) wire.[11] The substations convert the 11 kV AC supply into 750 V DC supply into the overhead.

Track gauge, 1435 mm (4 ft 8+1⁄2 in) (standard gauge) ....

It's interesting that this idea has had no response from Stage Coach as it would be a great marketing stunt. May be they are concerned that travelers may find the difference in ride comfort not as great as we thought. Remembering that in it's later years the standard of maintenance on both trams and track was not 100%. How would the ride on the old trams be on the new track.

It will fit, I have decided.

jiginc

[Guest transit]

Information from Wikipedia.

The track

Detail of the Supertram track.

The network is 29 km (18 miles) long, with 60 km of track.[11] It features two types of track; tramway track where either pedestrians or road traffic share the right of way and ballasted railway track when there are no such requirements. Tramway track consists of a grooved tramway rail set into a concrete base with troughs into which the rails are laid. Most of the track is on-street using 35G-section grooved tram rail, with BS11-80A 80 lb/yd flat-bottom rail elsewhere.[11] The railway track was supplied by British Steel Track Products of Workington and laid on sleepers consisting of concrete blocks with steel ties which gives a spring feeling when travelling on these sections. The track is laid on a bed of ballast which in turn rests on a prepared formation. Street crossings are usually laid with grooved tramway rails.

[edit] The overhead wiring

Supertram is powered through 12 electric substations and fed through 1.07 cm diameter overhead line equipment (OHLE) wire.[11] The substations convert the 11 kV AC supply into 750 V DC supply into the overhead.

Track gauge, 1435 mm (4 ft 8+1⁄2 in) (standard gauge) ....

It's interesting that this idea has had no response from Stage Coach as it would be a great marketing stunt. May be they are concerned that travelers may find the difference in ride comfort not as great as we thought. Remembering that in it's later years the standard of maintenance on both trams and track was not 100%. How would the ride on the old trams be on the new track.

It will fit, I have decided.

jiginc

....so as you say ...it would fit ! - so can someone let Stagecoach know , so we can have an "old" Sheffield tram back on the tracks - if only for commemorating the 50 year anniversary of abandanment!? (1960 -2010)

[jiginc]

More information from the net.

"Why did Great Britain and the United States settle on 4 feet, 8 1/2 inches for "Standard Gauge"?

It was a result of strange twists of fate, money, and politics - and one man was ultimately responsible for the standard - George Stephenson. George grew up in the mining regions of Great Britain, and was the epitome of a self-made man. He was well respected for his knowledge of the mine, the railways used in the mines, and the engines used there as a young man of about 21.

Railways existed within mines since at least the mid-1500's, so it is not strange that British mines had railways in 1800. Many different gauges were used, as the railway was not a part of any road or regular transportation system. The railway was meant to make it easier for pulling heavy wagons of ore and coal, and the gauge was placed to fit the mine - some narrow, some wide, some wider still. No standard was necessary. These railways were later extended to the nearby ship dock, allowing more ore to be transported by a single horse.

Steam engines were in use to pump water and to pull carts along using cable, but George decided to try putting one on a wagon. Not a new idea, as the Frenchman Cugnot had done this many years before, with the Englishman Trevithick, the American Stevens, and others experimenting with steam engines for self-propelled vehicles - but, George started his own experiments. George had a few mines that he worked on, with railways of at least three different gauges. He chose to place his first "locomotive" on his railway with a 4 foot 8 inch gauge. It worked, but he learned that moving the rails another half inch apart on his short railway made the travel easier.

The rest is history - at least in Great Britain. Providing a railway as a public road was proposed, and George had already earned the respect of many, so he was consulted for many of the early railways. He did discuss the potential for other gauges, and his "standard gauge" was typically used only as a matter of convenience. But, as the introduction of new railways continued, the educated engineers generally agreed that no railway should be built with less than a 5 foot gauge. Unfortunately, as the politics and arguments began, one thing was certain above all else - George had been the basis for over 1,200 miles of railways! Many times that of any other single gauge in use - and when the fact that it is relatively cheap to "kick in" the rail from a wider gauge to the Stephenson gauge and very costly do to the opposite... the Stephenson gauge was decided upon. Although a "Gauge War" ensued, the outcome was obvious before the arguments began, for economic reasons. "Standard Gauge" became the Stephenson gauge."

The railways of North Amnerica followed the British example largely because the first locomotives were ordered from

Stephenson in Britain, & the railroads that adopted that gauge expanded very quickly.

Well, it makes sense to me...but I must admit I was hoping for something stranger, more surprising....

[DaveH]

More information from the net.

"Why did Great Britain and the United States settle on 4 feet, 8 1/2 inches for "Standard Gauge"?

It was a result of strange twists of fate, money, and politics - and one man was ultimately responsible for the standard - George Stephenson. George grew up in the mining regions of Great Britain, and was the epitome of a self-made man. He was well respected for his knowledge of the mine, the railways used in the mines, and the engines used there as a young man of about 21.

Railways existed within mines since at least the mid-1500's, so it is not strange that British mines had railways in 1800. Many different gauges were used, as the railway was not a part of any road or regular transportation system. The railway was meant to make it easier for pulling heavy wagons of ore and coal, and the gauge was placed to fit the mine - some narrow, some wide, some wider still. No standard was necessary. These railways were later extended to the nearby ship dock, allowing more ore to be transported by a single horse.

There you go,

I told you I wasn't making it up, - Railways in the 1500's

[DaveH]

It's interesting that this idea has had no response from Stage Coach as it would be a great marketing stunt. May be they are concerned that travelers may find the difference in ride comfort not as great as we thought. Remembering that in it's later years the standard of maintenance on both trams and track was not 100%. How would the ride on the old trams be on the new track.

It will fit, I have decided.

jiginc

I seem to remember that the old trams were pretty nippy,

They accelerated rapidly from a standing start and could hold quite a decent road speed, even on an uphill gradient.

By comparison the "Supertram" seems to be a relatively slow "slug" that sort of slithers its winding way around the City.

Now that may just be my imagination or fading pre 1961 memories, -

But it may be a comparison that Stage Coach don't want us to make :rolleyes:

[pgmetcalf]

Went to Blackpool the other year.

[DaveH]

Went to Blackpool the other year.

Great pictures pgmetcalf,

Have we got one of fleet number 710 to Bispham that run Alan Bradley over? lol

[Dickdioxide]

There is a difference -but does it make a difference?

Click here

This article is about tram trains and the difference between Sheffield Supertram track and heavy rail track even though both are the same width.

This article includes things to do with the differences between types of track.

Sheffield supertram wheels track is designed to a light rail guage not just to do with width but ...( lots of things far too technical for me) like wheel/rail interface .... wheel tyre flange profiles etc.

This is not standard guage that is used by the railway from which the coal and sand trains running on Blackpool and Fleetwood tramtrack accessed.

Whether the difference is significant or can be easily overcome is beyond my understanding.

Blackpool/Crich must have the knowledge and could get some brilliant publicity from appearing on Supertram and other networks- they woud have to overcome the same arguments as the steam operators have had with the BR and those who superseeded it.

The Sheffield horse tram ran on supertram track -runs at Crich - so do a variety of Sheffield trams.

Some Blackpool trams still run with trolley poles- these are better at coping with horizontal differences are they not also not better with height differences.

[DaveH]

There is a difference -but does it make a difference?

Click here

This article is about tram trains and the difference between Sheffield Supertram track and heavy rail track even though both are the same width.

This article includes things to do with the differences between types of track.

Sheffield supertram wheels track is designed to a light rail guage not just to do with width but ...( lots of things far too technical for me) like wheel/rail interface .... wheel tyre flange profiles etc.

This is not standard guage that is used by the railway from which the coal and sand trains running on Blackpool and Fleetwood tramtrack accessed.

Whether the difference is significant or can be easily overcome is beyond my understanding.

Blackpool/Crich must have the knowledge and could get some brilliant publicity from appearing on Supertram and other networks- they woud have to overcome the same arguments as the steam operators have had with the BR and those who superseeded it.

The Sheffield horse tram ran on supertram track -runs at Crich - so do a variety of Sheffield trams.

Some Blackpool trams still run with trolley poles- these are better at coping with horizontal differences are they not also not better with height differences.

Trust there to be a purely technical argument used to try and prevent old trams running on the new track even though for all practical practical purposes the tracks are identical.

What excuses are they going to find to prevent the running of old trams next?

Leaves on the track?

Wrong type of snow?

I am sure British Rail could find them all sorts of lame excuses. lol

[Guest mega_monty]

In the late 90's I worked on the signalling for the Supertram Network. South Yorkshire Supertram as it was then known purchased an old single deck tram for £1 from Berlin and had it shipped over to Sheffield, it was known by staff as the Berlin Tram and resided on the tracks within the Nunnery Depot.

The idea was to use the tram as a maintenance car to travel up and down the tram network like the old Sheffield maintenance trams. The main problem was the tram required a VIS transponder unit fitting in order to operate the signals and identify the tram along the network. To install a system from Siemens as fitted to all Supertrams was an extortionate cost. I was involved in a project with an engineer from South Yorkshire Supertram to decode all the route code data and design / build and install our own transponder unit. We got as far as building prototype units when South Yorkshire Supertram was taken over by Stagecoach and the project was scrapped.

This was very disappointing as a lot of hard work had gone into this project; the Berlin Tram was eventually donated to the Tram museum at Crich. I think it maybe Berlin 3006. So going by this project it would have been possible to run an old Sheffield Tram on the Supertram Network

[Hjdary]

Would it be possible to run a first generation tram with out the need to operate points....If it was to run from one place to another without crossing over to another line? Or do all route feature points that need to be operated

[Guest transit]

In the late 90's I worked on the signalling for the Supertram Network. South Yorkshire Supertram as it was then known purchased an old single deck tram for £1 from Berlin and had it shipped over to Sheffield, it was known by staff as the Berlin Tram and resided on the tracks within the Nunnery Depot.

....was actually nicknamed Adolf at first , later changed to Herman ( the German) !!!!!!!! - Heres a pic at Nunnery depot .......

[Stuart0742]

....was actually nicknamed Adolf at first , later changed to Herman ( the German) !!!!!!!! - Heres a pic at Nunnery depot .......

I think Mega Monty has hit the nail on the head

If the 1st generation trams can't be fitted with the signalling transponders easily/cheaply, (who would pay for anyway), then not only will these trams not be able to operate the points, the signallimg would also be inoperable. Supertram would not be able to gain a license or what ever agreement to run these trams.

Its a great idea to celebrate 50 years since the end of the 1st generation trams, but now looks like a non starter.

Unless somebody knows different.