Stuart0742 Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Assuming it is Barnsley, does anyone know the tram routes there, did the trams run along Park Rd past Locke Park, if so it may be a contender. This answers my question about the tram routes through Barnsley, route past Locke park was not built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnrEaton Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 If it is a school with swings then there could be any number of different options! At least the Locke Park option is out, thanks Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Despite Mr. Heaths doubts about them being childrens swings I think that is what they are. If I study the photo in the magazine very carefully I am sure that I can make out seats on the smaller of the structures. The chains or ropes would not be visable at that range because you can only just make out traces of the tram overhead system wiring on the photo. There is one clench-ear (the fitting that suspended the catenary from the support wire) visible in the branches of the tree. If we are looking at swings it would be a school or perhaps a park but a park might have other play equipment. The plot thickens ! I don't think they are swings.Compare the height with the facade of the building. The larger ones reach to the 1st floor windows. Can I offer a devious thought? These pictures are taken from the company archives. Given the period, and the state of photography, is it possible the print is reversed, ie a mirror image? try flipping it and it looks quite different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilldweller Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 This answers my question about the tram routes through Barnsley, route past Locke park was not built. I think that there was another tramway system from the Alhambra Cheapside, out on the Doncaster Road along the Dearne valley towards Mexborough built around 1924. This was never connected directly to the other Barnsley system. This would take it past the big cemetery on Cemetery Rd/Doncaster Rd. Perhaps the funeral took place in the 1920's. There was a R.C. school (St. Josephs) on Doncaster Rd but it seems from Multimap to be a more modern building than that pictured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart0742 Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I don't think they are swings.Compare the height with the facade of the building. The larger ones reach to the 1st floor windows. Can I offer a devious thought? These pictures are taken from the company archives. Given the period, and the state of photography, is it possible the print is reversed, ie a mirror image? try flipping it and it looks quite different. Is the Union Jack now wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Has anyone contacted Heath's to see if they have a better quality photo ? Might be the printing procedure - might not. They might even have further clues, the whole thing being posted as a teezer ... probably not - worth asking ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart0742 Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Has anyone contacted Heath's to see if they have a better quality photo ? Might be the printing procedure - might not. They might even have further clues, the whole thing being posted as a teezer ... probably not - worth asking ... Given that they are asking for details in the text, I don't think they would be able to help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike142sl Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 Is the Union Jack now wrong? I wondered about that, but it's exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vox Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 I don't think they are swings.Compare the height with the facade of the building. The larger ones reach to the 1st floor windows. Can I offer a devious thought? These pictures are taken from the company archives. Given the period, and the state of photography, is it possible the print is reversed, ie a mirror image? try flipping it and it looks quite different. Further to that question: By reversing the image they seem to be on the wrong side of the road. I think it's right as it is Bayleaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 Further to that question: By reversing the image they seem to be on the wrong side of the road. I think it's right as it is Bayleaf. Continuing as Devil's advocate, it's difficult to tell, since a] we don't know the road so we don't know the width, and b] a cortege of this kind would probably hold up traffic and use the width or as much as they needed. (I'm not saying you're wrong vox, just stirring the mix!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart0742 Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 Continuing as Devil's advocate, it's difficult to tell, since a] we don't know the road so we don't know the width, and b] a cortege of this kind would probably hold up traffic and use the width or as much as they needed. (I'm not saying you're wrong vox, just stirring the mix!) I still reckon the Union Jack is wrong in the reversed photo Correct way round Reversed Union Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 OK, try these. There were 2 other military funerals in Sheffield not on the list. The first was on 12th February 1915, of Private Charles Haydn Hanforth, the first casualty of the Sheffield Battalion, who died of pneumonia. His funeral was at the Cathedral and the coffin was carried by gun carriage in procession to Fulwood Church where he is buried. The other is later, April 1924, and was the funeral of Sgt Arnold Loosemore VC. His coffin was also carried in procession from Hillsborough to Ecclesall Churchyard where he is buried. (I think via the Cathedral, but I'm not sure). I'm not sure how these fit with the uniforms and dates, but they're worth thinking about? And then there's this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunsbyowl1867 Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I don't think they are swings.Compare the height with the facade of the building. The larger ones reach to the 1st floor windows. Can I offer a devious thought? These pictures are taken from the company archives. Given the period, and the state of photography, is it possible the print is reversed, ie a mirror image? try flipping it and it looks quite different. I have this photo which could almost in the same place overlooking Abbeyfield Park on Peter's flipped photo. Although the wall looks a lot more 'dressed' than the older one. - though it could have been rebuilt? The photo looks like it was taken from above which could have been on the old road to the left as here There was a lake surrounded by some shrubbery to the bottom of the grounds which could account for the depression hedging to the right or not! http://www.picturesheffield.com/cgi-bin/pi...ff.refno=s11154 :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilldweller Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 I don't think they are swings.Compare the height with the facade of the building. The larger ones reach to the 1st floor windows. Can I offer a devious thought? These pictures are taken from the company archives. Given the period, and the state of photography, is it possible the print is reversed, ie a mirror image? try flipping it and it looks quite different. Just a thought on the possibility of the photo being reversed. Would a photo taken at that time be taken on a camera using glass plate film ? If so and you took a print from the reverse side of the plate, would it not be somewhat out of focus due to the thickness of the plate ? And would this not be obvious to the photographer ? Is there anyone on the forum who knows about such things who could tell us ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vox Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Just a thought on the possibility of the photo being reversed. Would a photo taken at that time be taken on a camera using glass plate film ? If so and you took a print from the reverse side of the plate, would it not be somewhat out of focus due to the thickness of the plate ? And would this not be obvious to the photographer ? Is there anyone on the forum who knows about such things who could tell us ? The question of weather it's reversed or not could be answered by someone who knows: a/ If there is a standard position for the mounted soldier on the lead horse. Ie. Nearside or offside b/ What equipment is being carried by the Scots on their cross webbings. One would imagine that it would be standardised as to one side or the other, soan expert would know which side is which. Thinks: I'll start looking for old photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart0742 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 The question of weather it's reversed or not could be answered by someone who knows: a/ If there is a standard position for the mounted soldier on the lead horse. Ie. Nearside or offside b/ What equipment is being carried by the Scots on their cross webbings. One would imagine that it would be standardised as to one side or the other, soan expert would know which side is which. Thinks: I'll start looking for old photos. I'm sticking with the Union Jack being the wrong way round in the reversed picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike142sl Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 I still reckon the Union Jack is wrong in the reversed photo Correct way round Reversed Union Jack Stuart, You are confusing the right way up of the Union Jack, which is dependant on where the Flag Pole is. In the first image the pole would need to be on the left, in the second image it would be on the right. It's to do with the broad white diagonals being uppermost above the red at the pole side. On the funeral picture there is obviously no pole and I suspect flags for this purpose would not have had the pole attachment either so its imposible to tell. So it's not posible to tell from the flag if the picture is reversed or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart0742 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Stuart, You are confusing the right way up of the Union Jack, which is dependant on where the Flag Pole is. In the first image the pole would need to be on the left, in the second image it would be on the right. It's to do with the broad white diagonals being uppermost above the red at the pole side. On the funeral picture there is obviously no pole and I suspect flags for this purpose would not have had the pole attachment either so its imposible to tell. So it's not posible to tell from the flag if the picture is reversed or not. Cheers Mike Point taken, all references to the flag are now withdrawn :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vox Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 The question of weather it's reversed or not could be answered by someone who knows: a/ If there is a standard position for the mounted soldier on the lead horse. Ie. Nearside or offside b/ What equipment is being carried by the Scots on their cross webbings. One would imagine that it would be standardised as to one side or the other, soan expert would know which side is which. Thinks: I'll start looking for old photos. I asked my cousin. He's a model maker and knows quite a bit about things military. This is his reply and I stress it's only his opinion. "Kings Troop Royal Horse Artillery, the ones who have the ceremonial horse drawn guns at special occasions, always ride on the left hand pair (nearside horse) - like the bloke at the front of the photo. The two blokes at the back are wearing "Sam Brown" leather belt sets - one waist and one across the shoulder. The diagonal one always goes on the right shoulder like these two. So I would say it hasn't been reversed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vox Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 I saw mention somewhere that it looked like Abbeyfield Park (and I agree that it does), but someone then noted that the wall is too high in the modern picture. If you notice the top of the heads of the people in the extreme foreground of the original photo, it makes the viewing point quite high up. For instance an upstairs window. This would make the wall in the photo appear to be a bit lower than it actually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 I asked my cousin. He's a model maker and knows quite a bit about things military. This is his reply and I stress it's only his opinion. "Kings Troop Royal Horse Artillery, the ones who have the ceremonial horse drawn guns at special occasions, always ride on the left hand pair (nearside horse) - like the bloke at the front of the photo. The two blokes at the back are wearing "Sam Brown" leather belt sets - one waist and one across the shoulder. The diagonal one always goes on the right shoulder like these two. So I would say it hasn't been reversed." Nice point vox! Now you mention it the photo of Pte Hanforth's funeral shows the riders of the team pulling the gun carriage sitting on the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilldweller Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Hi all, Just been briefly browsing through this month's Grapevine magazine for Sheffield - to be fair I don't normally pay it too much attention but found this picture on the John Heath Funeral Directors page. It's one they have found in their archive and don't have any info on but are open to ideas; I'd have a few suggestions but thought it looked like there could be a lot that could be gleaned from everyone on here having a look as well. I've tried to scan it in, but the image is not stunning quality - I think you're best off not zooming in too closely lest it get too blurry! If you're in Sheffield just check the magazine out for the original, it's page 22. The text is also here as an attachment. I have no ideas as to location and would love to know where it was actually taken, but it looks fairly distinctive as a site. There are a few points worth making to start the ball rolling on this one I think: i) the webbing the soldiers are mainly wearing (cross belt on the backs) looks reasonably distinctive. I'm not an expert at all but there are clearly buckles just below the shoulders - was that on the 1908 pattern but not the 1914 pattern? (I think, but I could be corrected quite easily - that's just going on appearance I've seen on other photos) which may indicate a territorial unit as opposed to a newly raised service battalion. ii) the soldier level with the centre of the cortege has a curved shoulder title visible - line regiments only had this and not RFA / RGA as implied by the text? iii) the cortege needn't be an RFA gun carriage - didn't virtually all units have access to limbers like this throughout the war? iv) the monument in the centre of the background is pretty individual in shape and style - any ideas? As is the building and structure, so likewise. v) the pole structure to the right of the picture may also give some clue as to location - what is it? I'd love to know more about this picture as it seems most intriguing - hope it is to you to Dan. This thread seems to have gone a bit quiet of late 'so I thought I put in my two penneth. A little while ago I sent an email to the local studies/archives section of Barnsley Libraries with a hi-res scan of the magazine picture as an attachment. I asked them if they thought it could be somewhere in Barnsley, unfortunately I haven't had a reply as yet. I'll post if and when I do. Concerning the monument with it's strange shaped plaque, has anyone considered that it might be a drinking-fountain, if you study the original there seems to be something projecting forward towards the bottom of the white shape. If it is it puts us back to the playground/park theory. There you are, I've stirred it up a bit. Hilldweller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vox Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 This thread seems to have gone a bit quiet of late 'so I thought I put in my two penneth. A little while ago I sent an email to the local studies/archives section of Barnsley Libraries with a hi-res scan of the magazine picture as an attachment. I asked them if they thought it could be somewhere in Barnsley, unfortunately I haven't had a reply as yet. I'll post if and when I do. Concerning the monument with it's strange shaped plaque, has anyone considered that it might be a drinking-fountain, if you study the original there seems to be something projecting forward towards the bottom of the white shape. If it is it puts us back to the playground/park theory. There you are, I've stirred it up a bit. Hilldweller It allows up to 2meg on here. I'd like to see a better quality scan if you can post one . Something with better definition may help to sort out the framework as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilldweller Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 It allows up to 2meg on here. I'd like to see a better quality scan if you can post one . Something with better definition may help to sort out the framework as well. When I've figured out how to post photos I will post a higher res photo. I've just received a reply from Barnsley Libraries. They say that they cannot positively identify the location but the "monument" does closely resemble a picture of a drinking fountain in Locke Park as seen from Park Road. The only difference is the double dias, the wall is also similar. This leaves the problem of the tram route, did trams ever run on Park Road or not ? Hilldweller. Stop Press. I've just been looking on Multimap and Google Maps and there is a building on Park Road opposite Park Grove that could well be the one in the photo. It looks as though it's seen better days but it's the correct orientation and there is still a kiddies playground in exactly the right position. I'm not in a position to go and have a look but there might be someone in SH who travels that way who could have a shuffty. I've a feeling in my water that we are almost there ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart0742 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 When I've figured out how to post photos I will post a higher res photo. I've just received a reply from Barnsley Libraries. They say that they cannot positively identify the location but the "monument" does closely resemble a picture of a drinking fountain in Locke Park as seen from Park Road. The only difference is the double dias, the wall is also similar. This leaves the problem of the tram route, did trams ever run on Park Road or not ? Hilldweller. Link back to post #7 It would suggest not, but is it correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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