GnrEaton Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Hi all, Just been briefly browsing through this month's Grapevine magazine for Sheffield - to be fair I don't normally pay it too much attention but found this picture on the John Heath Funeral Directors page. It's one they have found in their archive and don't have any info on but are open to ideas; I'd have a few suggestions but thought it looked like there could be a lot that could be gleaned from everyone on here having a look as well. I've tried to scan it in, but the image is not stunning quality - I think you're best off not zooming in too closely lest it get too blurry! If you're in Sheffield just check the magazine out for the original, it's page 22. The text is also here as an attachment. I have no ideas as to location and would love to know where it was actually taken, but it looks fairly distinctive as a site. There are a few points worth making to start the ball rolling on this one I think: i) the webbing the soldiers are mainly wearing (cross belt on the backs) looks reasonably distinctive. I'm not an expert at all but there are clearly buckles just below the shoulders - was that on the 1908 pattern but not the 1914 pattern? (I think, but I could be corrected quite easily - that's just going on appearance I've seen on other photos) which may indicate a territorial unit as opposed to a newly raised service battalion. ii) the soldier level with the centre of the cortege has a curved shoulder title visible - line regiments only had this and not RFA / RGA as implied by the text? iii) the cortege needn't be an RFA gun carriage - didn't virtually all units have access to limbers like this throughout the war? iv) the monument in the centre of the background is pretty individual in shape and style - any ideas? As is the building and structure, so likewise. v) the pole structure to the right of the picture may also give some clue as to location - what is it? I'd love to know more about this picture as it seems most intriguing - hope it is to you to Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beery Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Took a quick look. The buckles below the shoulders appear to be the P.08 buckles and the shade of the equipment says P.08 to me. The shoulder straps do seem to get bigger towards the shoulders, but I'm guessing this must be a trick of the light because the only straps that did that between 1900 and the late 1930s were either a rare type of officer equipment or Slade-Wallace gear, and I doubt it's that. In my opinion, this is an image of soldiers wearing P.08 webbing. They have the buckles on their backs which would be in that position to secure the large pack when it was being carried. It can't be P.14 because although the buckles would have been in the same spot, they were a different shape and P.08 buckles do not (I've tried) fit easily on a P.14 strap. Besides, P.14 webbing was dark leather and would probably appear darker than the tunic. P.08 may indicate a territorial unit or a regular army unit. However, P.14 was terrible equipment, prone to getting (and staying) wet. Soldiers in service battalions traded it in for P.08 whenever they got the chance. What you probably (but by no means certainly) have here is a photo taken between about 1914 and 1920 showing soldiers from at least three different units (horse artillery, infantry and a Scots infantry unit. If I was forced to narrow down the time period, I'd say early WW1 - 1914-16 because of the stiff caps being worn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnrEaton Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 Thanks for that Beery - I am glad I was coming to the right conclusion on webbing, even if the method was totally wrong! Do you think the terrier unit may be the Hallams (they were around, but did they have the curved shoulder title that can be seen on the picture?) I've also got this thread running on the Great War Forum to see if any of their boffs can shed any light. The interesting news from one of their members is that you had to give notice in order to use a carriage like this, and also it could not be more than a mile and a half from a station / hospital / home / cemetery - so I guess that narrows the location down a bit. Using all the known suggestions so far - given that most point to a Scotsman (or possibly Irish?) being buried somewhere in Sheffield between 1914 and 1916 - I've looked through all the CWGC records for Sheffield cemeteries and have come up with this list (assuming that as Heath's Funeral Directors are based in Sheffield we are only looking there): S/18207 Pte W Davidson, 5th Camerons died 5/11/15, Burngreave Cemetery 16714 Pte Martin Durkin, 8th Dublin Fusiliers, died 5/7/16, Burngreave Cemetery 3625 Pte W T McDougall, 1/4 Black Watch, died 30/12/15, Burngreave Cemetery 5220 Sjt Richard Brennan, 4th Dublin Fusiliers,died 28/7/16, City Road (age 40) 13604, Sjt M McCullagh, 4th Dublin Fusiliers, died 11/12/16, St Michael's R.C. Cemetery 26619 Pte John O'Donoghue, 10th Dublin Fusiliers, died 1/12/16, St. Michael's RC Cemetery (age 18) 14177 Pte Arnold Edwin Williamson, 8th KOSB, died 20/10/1915, Tinsley Park Cemetery (age 19) Of all of these, Richard Brennan would be my top candidate - his CWGC record states he had 22 yrs service and had served in the Boer War. Also, he was Sheffield born and bred (but his home address was Dublin), so maybe this would partially go towards the 'pomp', as I'm not convinced the army would do this for all 18 year old privates who died in training - would they? The only things mainly bothering me on this one are: did the Dublin Fusiliers wear similar caps to Scottish regiments as suggested in the original text? Where is this location - is it within a mile and a half of City Road Cemetery? Still going to keep looking on this one, it's proving to be an interesting challenge! Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HughW Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I believe the 'pole' is a tram fitting, so this must be on a tram route. Our tram experts will probably be able to help. Compare the pole with the ones in these images: http://www.picturesheffield.com/jpgl/s07210.jpg http://www.picturesheffield.com/jpgh/s07357.jpg The first is listed as from the 1920's. The second is undated. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnrEaton Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 Thanks Hugh! So we're looking at somewhere on a tram route too to add to the description of the location - the poles are very similar. Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnrEaton Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 Been going through parks pictures for all public spaces in Sheffield - what do people think about Abbeyfield Park on Abbeyfield Rd / Barnsley Road? It's just round the corner from Burngreave Cemetery and I found an image that correponds quite well on the PictureSheffield site. I've been following google maps / street view and there is a spot on Abbeyfield road where the wall looks very similar (and the right height) but also the scenery to the left looks similar as well. On the identificaiton front I might have cracked it! Looking at the photo the officer on the RHS of the cortege seems to be wearing a forage cap whereas the chap on the left looks like he is wearing a tam-o-shanter. The Cameron Highlanders in WWI had caps for officers but tam-o-shanters for ordinary ranks - something I'm not sure if all the other Scots regiments did (although the KOSB and Argyll & Sutherland's did this too). Given the proximity to Burngreave Cemetery this would also tally as it is not too far off a reasonable route from the Northern General hospital. In November 1915 S/18207 Pte William Davidson of the 5th Camerons committed suicide at the hospital whilst recovering from a thigh wound by slitting his throat in a toilet cubicle during a fit of depression (I found his service papers that detail all of this). The Sheffield newspapers picked up on the story and published an article on him, of which drafts are in the papers. Still speculation, but given the unusual nature of the death and the general inerest by the press / public could he have been interred in such a way using the local terriers as the cadre to follow the cortege? It all seems to fit quite nicely, although the structures behind the wall are still a little of a mystery. Sorry I seem to be posting left right and centre but given I'm stuck at home feeling bunged up and flu-y I thought I'd do something productive that would keep me occupied! Please keep the suggestions coming - this is where I'm up to but it doesn't mean to say it's right! Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beery Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 That image seems to have disappeared. Could we get it back up (or a link to it), as I was going to look at the trees to see if I could find a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnrEaton Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 That image seems to have disappeared. Could we get it back up (or a link to it), as I was going to look at the trees to see if I could find a match. Sorry - think I managed to get rid of that last one, I wasn't sure how relevent it was. Will reattach it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beery Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Sorry - think I managed to get rid of that last one, I wasn't sure how relevent it was. Will reattach it for you. Thanks. This photo may reproduce part of the image. Look above the van. There's a tree with a pole to the right. This tree looks much like the tree that the soldiers are passing by in the original image. Also, the wall height seems the same as the wall in the original photo. The image with the van was taken in the 1960s, so there's about 50 years between the images. If the images are indeed of the same trees, the trees would have to be of a type that grows only to that height - so some kind of small tree variety. The van image seems to be taken from the corner of Shirecliffe Road (see image) There doesn't seem to be a specific thing that we can say - hey look at that - this proves that it's the same spot, but it does look very similar. Looking at google maps, a candidate for this point would be Barnsley road where it intersects Pitsmoor road. The place where the funeral image was taken may be a bit notheast of the intersection before the road begins to widen out as it nears the intersection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnrEaton Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 Thanks Beery, If you get chance have a look at the thread going on this on the great War forum - there seems to still discussion as to whether Abbeyfield is our location. Like you say, it does look similar but not exact. I can't decide either way now, so I guess it's back to square one! Still it's obviously got people puzzling over it, and there obviously is quite a bit to this picture. Link is: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...p;#entry1273272 Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilldweller Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 The big giveaway I think, is the tram standard with the distinctive finial on top. That is definitely not a Sheffield Tramways standard. Looking on the tramways website for photo's of old trams in nearby towns I found a dead-ringer of a post on a photo of a Barnsley tram. I think that for a location we should be looking in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnrEaton Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 The big giveaway I think, is the tram standard with the distinctive finial on top. That is definitely not a Sheffield Tramways standard. Looking on the tramways website for photo's of old trams in nearby towns I found a dead-ringer of a post on a photo of a Barnsley tram. I think that for a location we should be looking in that direction. Thanks for the suggestion hilldweller - I had thought about this line of enquiry too, but if you look at http://www.picturesheffield.com/jpgh/s07357.jpg that HughW found earlier it matches exactly! It might be worth looking to see if they were only on one specific route in Sfd or not though - is there any way of checking this? Trams are not my normal area of expertise! Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnrEaton Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 Looking at your Shirecliffe Lane suggestion Beery I think it looks reasonable. For some unknown reason my computer did not pick up your google map image until now! I'll ask Dean (who seems to be on the Great War forum instead of this one) as that's his neck of the woods and see what he thinks. Thanks for all your effort on this, Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beery Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Looking at your Shirecliffe Lane suggestion Beery I think it looks reasonable. For some unknown reason my computer did not pick up your google map image until now! I'll ask Dean (who seems to be on the Great War forum instead of this one) as that's his neck of the woods and see what he thinks. Thanks for all your effort on this, Dan. Actually I'm starting to think I'm barking up the wrong tree. I've looked along the Barnsley Road, the Burngreave Road and all around that area and I'm just not coming up with anything that looks like "Hey, that must be it!" I keep thinking some area might be it, but there's always an old house or something that's definitely not in the funeral image. Even after nearly a hundred years there must be something - the curved wall on the left, a house, the tree shape, the monument, the grade of the land - but nothing is popping out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnrEaton Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 Oh well, time to call it a day for the time being - maybe a sharper eyed forum member may spot something we haven't over the next few days! Thanks a lot and hopefully we may get an answer at some point, I'll keep an eye out as I'm around for any likely candidates, Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilldweller Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Thanks for the suggestion hilldweller - I had thought about this line of enquiry too, but if you look at http://www.picturesheffield.com/jpgh/s07357.jpg that HughW found earlier it matches exactly! It might be worth looking to see if they were only on one specific route in Sfd or not though - is there any way of checking this? Trams are not my normal area of expertise! Dan. The West Street Sheffield Photo shows the Sheffield style finial on top of the standard. As time went by the top bit of these was sawn off to save paint but that left them with a flat bit on top. The funeral photo shows a "Barnsley" onion shaped finial going to a short point just like an onion. That's what I was basing my suggestion on. The Barnsley network was not extensive so if it was there it should be easy to locate from old Barnsley photo's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveHB Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Some very interesting investigations going on in this topic. It's better than watching/reading Sherlock Holmes, well done to all the four of you. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart0742 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 The West Street Sheffield Photo shows the Sheffield style finial on top of the standard. As time went by the top bit of these was sawn off to save paint but that left them with a flat bit on top. The funeral photo shows a "Barnsley" onion shaped finial going to a short point just like an onion. That's what I was basing my suggestion on. The Barnsley network was not extensive so if it was there it should be easy to locate from old Barnsley photo's Ignoring the Tram Post for a moment, here is a view of Abbeyfield Park on MultiMap (Birds Eye view), is the house in the wrong place compared to the original photot in post 1 http://www.multimap.com/maps/?qs=burngreav...79:19|sheffield| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunsbyowl1867 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Ignoring the Tram Post for a moment, here is a view of Abbeyfield Park on MultiMap (Birds Eye view), is the house in the wrong place compared to the original photot in post 1 http://www.multimap.com/maps/?qs=burngreav...79:19|sheffield| You are right Stuart - if you were heading down Burngreave Road to town the house would be on your left You'd need to be going up Abbeyfield Road to get this view of the house - but the trams didn't did they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnrEaton Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 Good points all round - I stand corrected hilldweller! So if we start to widen the net to Barnsley does anyone have any suggestions? I'll keep trawling and see if anything looks spot on. Going to Dunsbyowl suggestion - could that fit? The far edge of the house (not the curved wall)looks vaguely similar, but not exactly and unfortunately the curved bit that would have been conclusive is just out of shot on the original! I had wondered about the incline from the house, but that could always have been put there later - the site was re-developed in 1919/20 wasn't it when it became a school, or am I way off? Dan. PS Glad to be providing entertainment Steve! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beery Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I'll bet that if we do find it, the area in the photo won't have changed much (if at all) in the last hundred years. If it's remained undeveloped I'll bet that obelisk/memorial thing is still there. Of course there's been a huge amount of redevelopment in the Sheffield area, so it could be that the whole spot has been changed beyond recognition. Either way, it's a fun investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike142sl Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Has anyone any idea what the curious A frames are in the garden of the original picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart0742 Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I'll bet that if we do find it, the area in the photo won't have changed much (if at all) in the last hundred years. If it's remained undeveloped I'll bet that obelisk/memorial thing is still there. Of course there's been a huge amount of redevelopment in the Sheffield area, so it could be that the whole spot has been changed beyond recognition. Either way, it's a fun investigation. Assuming it is Barnsley, does anyone know the tram routes there, did the trams run along Park Rd past Locke Park, if so it may be a contender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Has anyone any idea what the curious A frames are in the garden of the original picture? I'm glad you raised that Mike, I was just wondering myself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilldweller Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Has anyone any idea what the curious A frames are in the garden of the original picture? Despite Mr. Heaths doubts about them being childrens swings I think that is what they are. If I study the photo in the magazine very carefully I am sure that I can make out seats on the smaller of the structures. The chains or ropes would not be visable at that range because you can only just make out traces of the tram overhead system wiring on the photo. There is one clench-ear (the fitting that suspended the catenary from the support wire) visible in the branches of the tree. If we are looking at swings it would be a school or perhaps a park but a park might have other play equipment. The plot thickens ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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