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I have a photo of my granddad Bernard Tomlinson from WW1. I don't have any idea of his war service as there are no service records or medals etc. I've drawn a blank on Ancestry and all the family can tell me is that he was 'in the trenches'. Sorry the photo is so poor but that is the best I have. He was a Sheffielder and a married man and worked as a blacksmith so may not have been called up early on in the war. Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks

Lyn

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Hi Lyn,

The uniform is British Army and was of the type (pattern 1902 Service Dress) used between 1902 and (by other ranks) until 1940. His tunic seems to be the 'utility' style tunic used mostly between about 1916 and 1917, although sometimes they are seen later.

Judging by the fact that it's a studio portrait it's probably a photo taken in France or Belgium during WW1. The trade badge on the sleeve is that of a marksman, so your granddad probably had a very steady hand and very good eyesight. Sadly the cap badge is not shown in the photo. If you have more of the photo - perhaps showing the other soldiers - that might give us a clue. The lanyard on his shoulder may not signify anything - many soldiers used it to keep their jackknife from getting lost. The metal general service buttons tell us he probably wasn't in a rifle regiment - they tended to wear brown leather buttons. Your granddad is wearing no rank stripes, so that makes him a private.

So your granddad's photo was probably taken in 1916 or 1917.

Hope this is of some help.

I've done a bit of looking on ancestry.com and there are four Bernard Tomlinsons listed on the British Army Medal Rolls Index. One of them shows a member of the Notts and Derby Regiment who was at Gallipoli. Another was in the Army Service Corps - these men looked after horses and transport, so as a blacksmith he may well have been drafted into this organization. This man appears to be a conscript as he only has a Victory Medal and a British War Medal - as do the other two Bernard Tomlinsons. One of the other Bernard Tomlinsons was in the Manchester Regiment but he's from Salford and he shows up as having been killed during the war. There's also a 'B. Tomlinson' who served with the RAMC from 1914. Do you know your granddad's date of birth? Do you have any medals for your granddad? Did he survive the war?

Since he was a blacksmith, I'd probably be considering the Bernard who was in the Army Service Corps as the most likely candidate.

I also found a Bernard Tomlinson, born just over the border from Sheffield in Chesterfield, Derbyshire in 1898, son of William and Mary J. Could this be him?

The last part of the British Army Service Records (with the 'T's) has yet to be transferred online, so we can't find out if he has a surviving record unless someone goes in person to Kew to look it up.

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I have a photo of my granddad Bernard Tomlinson from WW1. I don't have any idea of his war service as there are no service records or medals etc. I've drawn a blank on Ancestry and all the family can tell me is that he was 'in the trenches'. Sorry the photo is so poor but that is the best I have. He was a Sheffielder and a married man and worked as a blacksmith so may not have been called up early on in the war. Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks

Lyn

I have tried tweaking the photo in photoshop, not a lot of detail to go on.

Is the insignia on Bernard's arm "Crossed Rifles"

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I have tried tweaking the photo in photoshop, not a lot of detail to go on.

Is the insignia on Bernard's arm "Crossed Rifles"

That's what I made it out to be Stuart. I think it's a 'qualification' badge rather than regimental, signifying 'marksman' or something similar.

(Sorry Beery, I must start reading threads all the way through!)

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Guest Trefcon

The chap with the A.S.C. has an 'M' prefix with his number, motor transport as opposed to horse's Lyn. Also if your thinking Blacksmith = Horses, this could throw you as there were hundreds of 'Blacksmiths' working in the steel works of the time. The medal Rolls might also give some extra info, this chap does look ups of the Rolls for about a fiver, www.militaryresearchon.com i have not used him though for a service record search, but he does do them.

Studio photo's, if it is one, were taken all over the place, including here in Sheffield.

Dean.

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Many thanks for your help. Yes my granddad survived the war I'm glad to say but no one has anything to tell us of his service years or any medals. One daughter is still alive aged 88 but can't tell me anything other than he was 'in the trenches'.

I've done the family history and I'm just trying to get the more recent family history information. He was born in 1889 son of Albert Henry Tomlinson and Ann Eliza Rodger born in Barnsley but moved to Sheffield almost immediately after his birth. I have the tree going back into the 1700s yet can't find his war service details. Frustrating isn't it. Yes he was a blacksmith in the steelworks later. The photo is the complete piece that I have - it appears to have been cut from a larger photo with oher soldiers on it. One other thing I recall is that his daughter was born in Sept 1916 and there is no Army number etc on her birth certificate so he must have been called up after this.

I'll add what you have told me to his life story - at least it is more than I managed to find out.

How about my other granddad George Andrew Johnston who was born in Workington Cumbria in 1885 married and came down to Sheffield c 1910. He is said to have served in the 1st World War in the R.A.M.C. (Royal Army Medical Corps) with the Border and West Yorkshire Regiment. No photos, no other information apart from he was awarded the Military Medal. He was married to Louisa and again was probably called up c 1916. No one left alive to tell me more and even when they were alive they said they knew nothing more or what had happened to his service records or medals. He too survived the war and was a steelworker dying in 1947.

Thanks to all

Lyn

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The chap with the A.S.C. has an 'M' prefix with his number, motor transport as opposed to horse's Lyn. Also if your thinking Blacksmith = Horses, this could throw you as there were hundreds of 'Blacksmiths' working in the steel works of the time.

My great great grandfather was a blacksmith, so I realize they were employed on more than shoeing horses. But, by the turn of the century the blacksmith trade was beginning to decline due to the ubiquity and cheapness of factory-produced metal goods, so by 1914 the blacksmith was starting to get more specialized in terms of horses and wrought iron work. However, in terms of the needs of the army, and by the very same token that blacksmiths weren't only for horses, I assume blacksmiths could also be employed in maintaining motor vehicles in the field, so the 'M' doesn't necessarily exclude Bernard from consideration. Also, while studio photos were taken all over the place, all the studio photos I've ever seen of army personnel in WW1 were taken in France to send home to loved ones as postcards. There is the occasional photo taken at home, but they're very rare in comparison.

I did find a George Andrew Johnston with a MIC - according to the card he served in France as a reverend with the Royal Army Chaplain's Department. He got the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. But I don't see a MM, so that may not be him - not sure if any chaplain got a MM, but I guess stranger things happen. There doesn't seem to be a service record for a George Andrew Johnston.

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Lyn,

have a look on the back, is it a postcard ?

Thousands of studio photos were taken in Britain during the war.

You might be spot on, and no, Bernard cant be excluded, but there's a lot of presumptions and assumptions here for my liking.

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I'm not sure why there needs to be contention over this. I've never said that my suppositions were absolute facts. They are suppositions based on what I see as probable. Were more photos taken by soldiers in France than in England? From my experience at photo restoration, yes. Could I be wrong? Yes. Does it matter? I don't think so. I say it's likely that Bernard's photo was taken in France in 1916 or 1917. Could the photo have been taken in England in 1918? Sure. That would make my suppositions wrong. Does it matter? I don't think so. It would only matter if my suppositions somehow led Lyn to search down the wrong path, but I've always used phrases like 'seems to be', 'appears to be', 'most likely', 'may or may not' and the words 'probably', 'perhaps' and 'maybe'. Those words and phrases leave plenty of room for doubt, and by no means do they cause Lyn to blithely accept my suppositions as gospel and stop looking elsewhere for facts.

Yes, I'm making a lot of assumptions. But in the absence of evidence, so what? Sure, it's great to want to find the absolute truth about a family relic. But if there's no absolute truth to be found, presumptions and suppositions, if they're based on probability, are often a lot more helpful than an insistence on proof.

For example, all the evidence I can find can't tell me whether my granddad was with 1/5 West Yorks at Passchendaele or 2/5 West Yorks at Cambrai during late 1917. I know he had to have been at one or the other. I have two equally plausible options, which to me is worse than nothing at all because there's no concrete solution to the question of where he served. But if I look at where he was posted in December, I can see he was posted closer to Cambrai than Ypres and in a sector controlled by the army group that also controlled 2/5 West Yorks. Does it 'prove' he was at Cambrai? No, but the probability is just a bit higher that he was at the battle of Cambrai. Is that enough for a jury? Probably not, but it gives me something to pass along to the family. I can say he was probably (not definitely - just probably) at Cambrai. Does it matter if I'm wrong? Of course not, and if evidence comes along proving I'm wrong, that's fine. But in the meantime I'd much rather have a story rather than no story at all.

It's the same with Bernard. Lyn says all the family knows is that he was in the trenches. She clearly wants more details, so what I'm giving her are some probabilities in the hope that one of them may lead to something helpful. I'm not saying to discard the other possibilities, but if the journey leads to a fork in the road you don't just stop the car and, before continuing, demand proof that one road must lead to the desired destination, and just give up if you can't find proof. No - you choose the most likely option - even if it's only a miniscule amount more likely - and you pursue it. If it leads to a dead end you can always turn the car around and go the other way. This is not all or nothing.

Now I'm not saying Bernard was 'definitely' photographed in France or that he was 'definitely' in the ASC. I'm just saying that it has a slightly higher probability than the others, as far as I can see. So if no other evidence can be found, and if people want that to be his story, they can use it that way. In the end, what matters is that he served, but in my experience, a story is always better with details - even if they're wrong. The more evidence you can get to back up the story, the better. But it's a mistake, I think, to insist on proof when there may not be any, and thus refuse to have any story for an ancestor whose history has been lost to memory.

In short, we should always look for proof, but I think it's a mistake to ignore probabilities when there may be no proof to be had.

In shorter, 'probably' has never meant 'definitely'.

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Guest Trefcon

I see no contention in this,

i'm merely trying to see the other side of your 'assumptions'. You state as fact that the photo is a studio photo, why ? because there is a chair in view ? it could have been taken anywhere, i wouldn't be happy to have a photo of my great grandfather and be told that it was taken in a studio in France or Belgium in 1916/17, only to find out it was took at Clipstone in 1915 ! The 'trade' badge, if he was a blacksmith his trade badge would be a crossed hammer and pincers wouldn't it? Why would a marksman be with the A.S.C. when he would be better off utilising those skills at the front instead of fetching ammo/goods etc from the railhead to 'dumps' ? As i say, too many presumptions and assumptions for my personal liking, but your entitled to write what you see fit.

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I see no contention in this,

i'm merely trying to see the other side of your 'assumptions'. You state as fact that the photo is a studio photo, why ? because there is a chair in view ? it could have been taken anywhere, i wouldn't be happy to have a photo of my great grandfather and be told that it was taken in a studio in France or Belgium in 1916/17, only to find out it was took at Clipstone in 1915 ! The 'trade' badge, if he was a blacksmith his trade badge would be a crossed hammer and pincers wouldn't it? Why would a marksman be with the A.S.C. when he would be better off utilising those skills at the front instead of fetching ammo/goods etc from the railhead to 'dumps' ? As i say, too many presumptions and assumptions for my personal liking, but your entitled to write what you see fit.

I fully agree deansgirl, and remember all pre 1914 infantrymen were required,not espected,required, to reach the standard of 15 aimed rounds per minute,and the reward for reaching this standard was an extra sixpence a day.

One of the golden rules of tracing family history is assume nothing,be absolutely sure.

My wifes great uncle was a sergeant in the Royal Welch Fusiliers,the famous 2nd battalion,enlisting in 1906,KIA October 1914,the tracing of his service record has provided a fascinating look at the British Army prior to 1914, it's disicipline,its professionalism, and above all it's fighting qualities, rough ,tough and hard bitten, but what an army,anyone who has a relative in that army can be sure he was a Soldier in every true sense of the word,read Frank Richards "Old Soldier Sahib" and "Old Soldiers Never Die" by the same author, he tells it warts and all

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Regarding the photo, if Deansgirl or Hougoumont has evidence, by all means they should bring it. If, on the other hand, all we have is supposition and you two don't like it, tell me why. Tell me why your arguments are more likely and why my supposition is less likely. Deansgirl seems to be arguing that it's more likely that the photo was taken in England. Where's the evidence that that was more likely? The photo was taken while Bernard was a soldier. As a soldier he stayed in England for at most a few months. He was most likely outside England for a year or more. From that alone I just don't see how it's more likely that the photo was taken in England.

The assertion that I'm citing the chair as my only evidence that this is a studio portrait is simply not true. The chair is a clue, but so is the background and the fact that the soldiers are 'posed'. Candid photographs don't usually include a man standing with his hand resting on another man's chest. It's just not a comfortable position. Those are my reasons why this is a studio photograph. Other than simple contradiction, what are your reasons that it's not?

You keep saying that the photo 'could have been taken anywhere'. Of course it could, but that's not at all helpful. Besides, I've never said it couldn't have been taken in England. I'm just having a hard time finding out what your point is when there's never been any disagreement over the fact that I'm making suppositions based on the very slight probabilities that exist. Photo recognition is ALL ABOUT finding tiny hints and trying to make reasonable suppositions based on them. Yes, this particular photo has far fewer clues than most, but they are there.

In short, one of us here is trying to identify things about the photo. The other seems to be trying to refuse to allow anyone to identify things about it. The former is helpful, the latter is not.

If you're not willing to bring forth arguments that indicate probabilities to counter mine, it seems to me that your problem is not with what I'm saying, but rather with the fact that I'm speaking up. This is a forum, not one member's personal soapbox.

On the issue of the crossed rifles, yes, that's a good argument and it does make the ASC seem less likely. So, with the Bernard Tomlinson who was in the Manchester Regiment impossible (he died), the one in the Notts and Derby unlikely since Lyn says he was probably called up after September 1916, the one in the ASC less likely, that leaves us with the Bernard Tomlinson who was in the Gloucester Regiment as the most likely candidate. It does seem a bit unusual to have a man in the Gloucester Regiment who lived in Sheffield, but it's by no means impossible.

By the way, Lyn, I did a quick search on the Soldiers of Gloucestershire website (http://www.glosters.org.uk/soldier/36071). There's a Bernard Tomlinson there who served with 2/4 Gloucesters. 2/4th Bn. landed in France in May 1916 and was disbanded in February 1918. You'd have to see the medal rolls for him to see where he went after that - the MIC doesn't mention another regiment.

The site charges 21 pounds for a soldier look-up based on the museum's documents (war diary and official and unofficial documents). Probably it won't turn up anything - private soldiers didn't usually make it into the war diary, and we don't know that this is even the right man, but if you have 21 pounds burning a hole in your pocket, it could be worth a look.

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Guest Trefcon

The first thing that has really got my back up is the suggestion that i think this is a 'one members soap box', that really rankles with me and i wont let it go. Your imput here is as valuable as anyone else's, it's just that i dont agree with the way you use supposition, and guess work to arrive at a 'conclusion'. I am 'NOT' arguing that the photo was taken in England! YOU stated as 'fact' that it was a studio photo, i merely questioned that. "as a soldier he stayed in England at most for a few months", where the hell do you get this from ? The photo's backgroud, what background ! Why would it be unusual for a Shefield man to be in the Gloucesters ? You want to have a look at my data base and just see where and with whom Sheffield men served with.

off the top of my files, Gloucestershire regt. all with Sheffield connections, never mind the ones who served.

Birtles. Bernard Vincent, 37055

Brown. Harry, 235256

Hayes. John, 260390

Humphrey. Lawrence, 235258

Kirk. Albert, 235260

Priday. Charles, 2758

Taylro. Reginald Ernest, 38295

Westbury. Walter Ralph, 11720

Wilkey. Arthur, 2718

Wilson. James, 5550

"the former is helpful, the latter is not", i listed a website that does look-ups of the medal rolls etc. etc, and you want to see what i do behind the scenes mate.

out of respect for Lyn, and i do apologise Lyn for this thread degenerating into this, i wont be answering any more of your long winded reply's.

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Can we cool this please gentlemen? You're both valued members of this forum, and it's sad to see two such knowledgeable members, both of whom are only trying to help an enquirer, get into a heated argument like this.

As far as this thread is concerned, Lyn has plenty of food for thought, so perhaps we can leave it there and agree to differ?

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Can I just say thank you to all who have taken the trouble to look into my query - I really do appreciate all your help and comments. I certainly did not intend to be the cause of WW3.

Seriously though you guys I am an experienced family history researcher and I do know never to take things at face value so when I do add things to my family history I do say that this is one opinion and it may be wrong - I look at all avenues. I would just love to be able to add a little of about their part in the war. I will of course keep my ears to the ground and hope that someday the facts do turn up.

Keep smiling

Lyn

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