Sheffield Castle

[RichardB]

Pedestrian Steel Route, which aims to link Victoria Quays and the Wicker with the rest of the city centre

Nice, new name; worth the money ... <Windup>

[Stuart0742]

Nice, new name; worth the money ... <Windup>

You have to admit, the area is run down, its an area where lots of people won't go, it needs improving.

You can guarantee if Sheffield council say open space they won't build a carpark, its pretty obvious they don't want to encourage car use, unless they can sell the land to Q parks to build a secure carpark, but then that would not be open space.

However little there is left of Sheffield Castle needs to be opened up and restored, ( not rebuilt ), and made the centre piece of an open space including the river side.

[DaveH]

Nice, new name; worth the money ... <Windup>

A very pretentious name.

Pedestrian Steel Route?

Where does it go?

Directly to a steel works? NO

What is it made of?

A strong metallic alloy consisting maily of iron and carbon? NO

So it's not a very accurate descriptive name is it?

Further, as a name, it too lacks character.

The existing routes in the same place I mentioned, Castlegate, Waingate and even Blonk Street have much more historic feel about them.

[DaveH]

You have to admit, the area is run down, its an area where lots of people won't go, it needs improving.

Yes, I'll give you that one sunshine! (As Eric Morecambe famously once said) It is run down and does need improving.

Due to lack of cash and budget cuts so so are a lot of other places.

Sheffield currently has the worst roads of any city in Britain for potholes and surface deterioration. As they represent the transport infrastructure of the city perhaps they should improve those first.

An area where a lot of people won't go?

Always seems pretty busy when I go down there, - more people round that area than the Moor.

Then again DaveH dares to go to places in Sheffield where angels fear to tread doesn't he?

Last year he was "Manorthe year" for daring to walk around Sheffield's estates like the Manor, Wybourne and Arbourthorne while carrying a camera! :o

[DaveH]

You can guarantee if Sheffield council say open space they won't build a carpark, its pretty obvious they don't want to encourage car use, unless they can sell the land to Q parks to build a secure carpark, but then that would not be open space.

Now that depends doesn't it?

Council policy seems to be.

1 )

Is it a general car park that anyone can use which would encourage cars into the City?

If so the answer is NO we don't want that!

2 )

Is it a public car park under Council control where we can charge a high parking fee and also run a wheeel clamping service with an even higher release fee such that the whole operation would become a nice little earner for the Council?

If so the answer is YES as the Council is short of money and needs to generate extra income from the already over generous ratepayers of the City

3 )

Is it a private car park for the exclusive FREE use of Council officials who make up and pass these petty rules so that they don't have to struggle into town to work and can conveniently park up in a reserved place?

If so the Council would undoubtedly say YES

An open space is exactly that, a space with nothing built on it.

It is the Councils way of saying that having knocked the market down they don't intend to actually do anything with it, or more likely now, cannot afford to build anything else on it.

The usual way out of this is for them to sell the land to developers to do what the hell they want with it, - so it ends up being a small block of private houses / flats stuck in the middle of other buildings like a sore thumb, - a bit like the houses built on the Norfolk and Ashleigh school sites which were sold off.

[DaveH]

However little there is left of Sheffield Castle needs to be opened up and restored, ( not rebuilt ), and made the centre piece of an open space including the river side.

Fotheringay Castle in Northamptonshire near the river Nene is the place where Mary Queen of Scots was executed.

It fell into disrepair and was demolished a bit like Sheffield Castle.

All that remains of Fotheringay Castle today is a mound of earth, with a fence around it and a sign saying

FOTHERINGAY CASTLE (SITE OF)

It's hardly a tourist attraction is it, despite its historical past.

Is this how you envisage the future of Sheffield Castle?

[Guest mgc]

Sheffield Castle circa Edward III (postcard image)

[RichardB]

Sheffield Castle circa Edward III (postcard image)

Nice, Thank you/

Extreme bottom left corner = Dixon Lane, just for reference.

[Guest mgc]

Nice, Thank you/

Extreme bottom left corner = Dixon Lane, just for reference.

And I'm thinking that dead-center, off in the distance, would be about where the Manor Lodge was destined to be built (?).... but then, if bottom left is Dixon, then maybe the Manor would be further to the right (?).

[History dude]

Sheffield Castle circa Edward III (postcard image)

It wasn't like that in 1332.

For in the 1332 inquisition or Post Mortem into the death of Thomas Furnival (which by the way was held in Rotherham!) It says the the Castle is frail.

This document puts a great deal on the value of things just like a will. And Sheffield Castle is worth NOTHING yes Zero! And later on in 1383 it's still worth nothing!

So, in the 14th Century Sheffield Castle would have been as bad as Manor Lodge is today. I believe it wasn't rebuilt till John Talbot came along.

It wasn't the only thing in a mess, the church too worth nothing. And two forges valued at an amazing £70, worth nothing, which are never recorded again.

To put this in context the Lay Subsides of 1297 gave the whole of Sheffield a value of £8 and Rotherham £4.

The cause a virulent disease hits in 1332 killing Thomas and a great deal of others, not the Black Death, unless it struck Sheffield much earlier than the rest of Europe And mass panic and destruction by those left alive is the only other conclusion I think explains it.

[neddy]

What I always wonder is where did all the stone go to.

[History dude]

What I always wonder is where did all the stone go to.

All over the place! You can look it up when Archives is back up and running under the Castle demolition accounts. There are some references to the sales of the Castle's stuff in Hunter's Hallamshire. Some I know and other material went to the Manor Lodge Site.

[Bayleaf]

All over the place! You can look it up when Archives is back up and running under the Castle demolition accounts. There are some references to the sales of the Castle's stuff in Hunter's Hallamshire. Some I know and other material went to the Manor Lodge Site.

It was also used to build the boys' school by the cathedral.

In fact there's an ongoing investigation to track down the remains. Apparently there's a fireplace in an unnamed house somewhere in South Yorkshire which is strongly believed to have come from the Castle.

[Guest lee]

Amazing write up Thanks

[neddy]

It was also used to build the boys' school by the cathedral.

In fact there's an ongoing investigation to track down the remains. Apparently there's a fireplace in an unnamed house somewhere in South Yorkshire which is strongly believed to have come from the Castle.

If the castle was as big as thought, wonder why we didn't have a town made of it's demolition stone.

[Guest Danny]

Nice, Thank you/

Extreme bottom left corner = Dixon Lane, just for reference.

According to Armstrongs findings and illustration, surely this would be Exchange street and not Dixon lane?

Armstrongs positioning of the bastion tower and drawbridge footings have it on the North side of Exchange street, below the Norfolk Market hall, so not as high up as Dixon lane.

[Guest Michael Sam]

What I always wonder is where did all the stone go to.

When Linda and I kept the Red House on Solly Street in the early 2000s a big retaining wall on the down hill side collapsed because of excavayon work for new building. A lot of old stone was exposed and we were told it was from the Castle. A lot was magnesian limestone as well as sandstone. There must be archaeology and architects' reports.

[Guest Michael Sam]

When Linda and I kept the Red House on Solly Street in the early 2000s a big retaining wall on the down hill side collapsed because of excavayon work for new building. A lot of old stone was exposed and we were told it was from the Castle. A lot was magnesian limestone as well as sandstone. There must be archaeology and architects' reports.

Incidentally it appears that in the past limestone from ancient remains was much prized for lime kilns and used on fields which could explain where so many old ruins ended up - on fields to counteract acid soils!

Lost forever.

[RichardB]

A most interesting thesis. Thank you.

Incidentally it appears that in the past limestone from ancient remains was much prized for lime kilns and used on fields which could explain where so many old ruins ended up - on fields to counteract acid soils!

Lost forever.

[DaveH]

Incidentally it appears that in the past limestone from ancient remains was much prized for lime kilns and used on fields which could explain where so many old ruins ended up - on fields to counteract acid soils!

Lost forever.

Quicklime (limestone that has burn "burnt" in a lime kiln) and Slaked lime (Quicklime that has been "slaked" by the addition of water) have many uses other than neutralising acid soil.

In particular they are used in the manufacture of cement, and therefore mortar and concrete.

They are also used in the manufacture of certain types of glass like window glass.

As all of these are constructional materials in modern archetectural engineering it may be a case of, like the legendary Phoenix, new buildings arise from the ashes of the old.

[Guest mgc]

Early-on in the Armstrong account, 1927-29, there is this paragraph:

========

"The ruins recently uncovered are remnants of this Castle which Thomas de Furnival built in 1270. In it dwelt the great Sir John Talbot, first Earl of Shrewsbury, a knight famed throughout Europe and historically one of the outstanding figures of the middle ages and last of the knights of chivalry. We may feel fairly certain that Cardinal Wolsey was received there during his stay of 16 or 18 days in 1530 as the guest of George the fourth Earl, ( See http://www.sheffield...showtopic=6119) and a few years later it was within its walls that Mary, the unfortunate Queen of Scots, was kept a close prisoner for nearly 14 years from 1571."

========

Is this not evidence of a persistent confusion between what was the castle (Sheffield Castle) that once stood at the confluence of the Don and Sheaf and the Manor Lodge? If I was putting money on it, I would say that the Turret House at Manor Lodge was a purpose-built structure, the intended purpose of which was to house (imprison) Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots, and that the Turret House should not be confused with the formidable castle that once stood at the confluence of the Don and Sheaf.

Mike

[Bayleaf]

Early-on in the Armstrong account, 1927-29, there is this paragraph:

========

"The ruins recently uncovered are remnants of this Castle which Thomas de Furnival built in 1270. In it dwelt the great Sir John Talbot, first Earl of Shrewsbury, a knight famed throughout Europe and historically one of the outstanding figures of the middle ages and last of the knights of chivalry. We may feel fairly certain that Cardinal Wolsey was received there during his stay of 16 or 18 days in 1530 as the guest of George the fourth Earl, ( See http://www.sheffield...showtopic=6119) and a few years later it was within its walls that Mary, the unfortunate Queen of Scots, was kept a close prisoner for nearly 14 years from 1571."

========

Is this not evidence of a persistent confusion between what was the castle (Sheffield Castle) that once stood at the confluence of the Don and Sheaf and the Manor Lodge? If I was putting money on it, I would say that the Turret House at Manor Lodge was a purpose-built structure, the intended purpose of which was to house (imprison) Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots, and that the Turret House should not be confused with the formidable castle that once stood at the confluence of the Don and Sheaf.

Mike

I must admit the Wolsey connection I always thought was with Manor Lodge, but Mary was at the castle for a considerable part of her 14 years in Sheffield.

[History dude]

Early-on in the Armstrong account, 1927-29, there is this paragraph:

========

"The ruins recently uncovered are remnants of this Castle which Thomas de Furnival built in 1270. In it dwelt the great Sir John Talbot, first Earl of Shrewsbury, a knight famed throughout Europe and historically one of the outstanding figures of the middle ages and last of the knights of chivalry. We may feel fairly certain that Cardinal Wolsey was received there during his stay of 16 or 18 days in 1530 as the guest of George the fourth Earl, ( See http://www.sheffield...showtopic=6119) and a few years later it was within its walls that Mary, the unfortunate Queen of Scots, was kept a close prisoner for nearly 14 years from 1571."

========

Is this not evidence of a persistent confusion between what was the castle (Sheffield Castle) that once stood at the confluence of the Don and Sheaf and the Manor Lodge? If I was putting money on it, I would say that the Turret House at Manor Lodge was a purpose-built structure, the intended purpose of which was to house (imprison) Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots, and that the Turret House should not be confused with the formidable castle that once stood at the confluence of the Don and Sheaf.

Mike

Sheffield Castle and The Manor Lodge are closely connected, but when Mary Stuart came to Sheffield first time it was in the Castle she was housed. The Turret House was built much later than the rest of the Lodge, but this wasn't known in the 1920's and 30's. Nor was the full size of Manor Lodge known then. So they believed the Turret House was the place were Mary Stuart was kept. It's small size perfect for the more or less fictional tale of Mary being a prisoner. Of course we now know she had a MASSIVE entourage of servants, who were housed in both Sheffield Castle, Sheffield Town and the Manor Lodge. However when Mary arrived in Sheffield Castle, the Manor Lodge was a great deal smaller than the structure she departed from when she left Sheffield for good. Therefore a MASSIVE rebuild of the Manor was undertaken. This would have taken around one or two years or more to complete, so Mary would not be up there for a few years. It was done only to house Mary Stuart in luxury and to give her protection from those who either wanted to use her, for the ambition of replacing Queen Elizabeth and then having Mary as a "puppet" Queen or getting rid of her later on. Plus those who just wanted Mary to be killed and then blame Elizabeth for it.

We have no records that Wolsely was in Sheffield Castle, only the account that he stayed at Manor Lodge in the area still called Wolsey Tower today.

The Castle that Mary first came to would have been really the castle of John Talbot. As records show that there was little left of the Furnival stone castle. If you think about many castles were rebuilt and redisigned to fit in with needs of the era of John Talbot. Nor was the structure "static" afterwards. Indeed by Mary's time it probably had been altered in places to fit the style of both Tudor and Elizabethan times. Things like windows with glass in them etc.

[Guest shelagh scholfield]

So enjoyable.Such a lot of information to take in.Well researched.

[SteveHB]