Jump to content

Mr Waterfall


RichardB

Recommended Posts

it's been some long slog to uncover a Victualler called Waterfall ... so here goes

Star, Samuel Waterfall, Gibralter Street from Pigot's 1818-1820

This place has a number of keepers :

1818-1820 Samuel Waterfall

1822, 1825 Joseph Fox

1828, 1829, 1833, 1834, 1837 George Smith

1841 no keeper known

1845 John Jow (probably Jones)

1846 John Jones

1849, 1851, 1852 George Radley

1854 Mrs Elizabeth Radley

1856, 1861, 1862 Thomas Hudson

1871 Alfred Smith

1881 Leonard Holmes

1891 no keeper known

1901 Martin Waddell

So, if the was a boozer called The Leg of Mutton and Trimmings, it looks like it was this one (under an older name) pre-1820, which fits with *****'s ancestors memories.

I'll let people comment on my conclusion; if there is no major objection, I'll record The Star as being formerly known as the Leg of Mutton and Trimmings and once run by Mr Waterfall, Gibralter Street, near Smithfields.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it's been some long slog to uncover a Victualler called Waterfall ... so here goes

Star, Samuel Waterfall, Gibralter Street from Pigot's 1818-1820

This place has a number of keepers :

1818-1820 Samuel Waterfall

1822, 1825 Joseph Fox

1828, 1829, 1833, 1834, 1837 George Smith

1841 no keeper known

1845 John Jow (probably Jones)

1846 John Jones

1849, 1851, 1852 George Radley

1854 Mrs Elizabeth Radley

1856, 1861, 1862 Thomas Hudson

1871 Alfred Smith

1881 Leonard Holmes

1891 no keeper known

1901 Martin Waddell

So, if the was a boozer called The Leg of Mutton and Trimmings, it looks like it was this one (under an older name) pre-1820, which fits with *****'s ancestors memories.

I'll let people comment on my conclusion; if there is no major objection, I'll record The Star as being formerly known as the Leg of Mutton and Trimmings and once run by Mr Waterfall, Gibralter Street, near Smithfields.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry to tell you but the Waterfall of Leg of Mutton and the Constable was JOHN Waterfall not Samuel. So this Star is not Leg Of Mutton unless anymore evidence has come to light.

regards

Terrie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry to tell you but the Waterfall of Leg of Mutton and the Constable was JOHN Waterfall not Samuel. So this Star is not Leg Of Mutton unless anymore evidence has come to light.

regards

Terrie

Any evidence ? I've provided some to back up my theory.

Directory entry, Census, postal evidence, reasonable body of proof, I'm afraid wishing it too be true doesn't quite hack it - I'd be perfectly delighted to be proved wrong, but with zero evidence, indeed a heavy body of evidence against it, then John Waterfall remains to be proved in any way to have been a publican.

Current betting 12,000 to 1 against. Unless you know different; I'll continue looking very hard for evidence in the positive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, I'll not update the Star; and there remains no evidence whatsoever as to the existence of the "Leg of Mutton ..."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, I'll not update the Star; and there remains no evidence whatsoever as to the existence of the "Leg of Mutton ..."

Richard B HI

Richard , The William Waterfall who was Manager of Sheffield Waterworks, the son of the so called - John Waterfall was borm between 1806-1809.

If his Birth certificate cound be found, that should give the Fathers forename.

Also the site of the so called Leg of Mutton and Trimmings around this time was Smithsfield.

Hope this helps.

Cheers Skeets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My ggg greatfather was William Waterfall in question. I have JOHN WATERFALL's death certificate and William was present at his death in Mt Pisgah Sheffield John is buried in the General Cemetary I am lead to believe. I am at present trying to get hold of a newspaper entry for John's death 30th June 1839. ( recorded in the Sheffield Local Register as a snippet of a longer? article) But no luck yet (I am in Australia).

Can find no birth of a William to a John Waterfall Vitcualler or constable in 1810 nor for 1809. Believe me I have searched. There is an entry for a William born 18/11/1809 to John and Betty Waterworth (Victualler). Maybe a transcription error. Waterfall has had many forms in Sheffield I have found. There is also one for a William Waterfall so John Waterfall and Margaret ( Cutler) Can a Cutler become a Landlord?? But Not the proof you seek, sorry.

Terrie Waterfall

Coldstream, Australia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forgive my ignorance of the area but could 'smithfield" merely refer to the road. If he was a constable with William Wild when William was a lad. Wouldn't he be near the Scotland Street Goal. Distances were difficult in that time were they not? No-one travelled very far afield.

Baines 1822 has him living 12 Castle Street. If william played with the 'old man ' as a boy he would have been 7 or 6 ?? probably which puts it in the 1815 or 1816 as Landlord!

Sorry to ramble on but I thought every bit of information might assist you in tracking down this elusive Leg o Mutton and Trimmings pub!

Terrie Waterfall

Coldstream

Australia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Baines 1822 has him living 12 Castle Street. If william played with the 'old man ' as a boy he would have been 7 or 6 ?? probably which puts it in the 1815 or 1816 as Landlord!

Sorry to ramble on but I thought every bit of information might assist you in tracking down this elusive Leg o Mutton and Trimmings pub!

Terrie Waterfall

Coldstream

Australia

Finally I have found some proof that JOHN Waterfall was a publican.

Please refer to below

From "The records of the Burgery of Sheffield Commonly called the Town Trust" P427 states under Heading 'Town Beadle" 22nd January 1817 Sergeant Waterfall Appointed Town Beadle from 23rd Inst, at 20 li per annum, on his engaging within six months entirely to give up the keeping of a Public House either directly or indirectly, or on his neglecting to comply with the above condition the appointment to become void. (Six Trustees Present)

Then

P 431 11th May 1820......John Waterfall Beadle, having been appointed one of the acting constables...

So even though I am at a loss to locate the Leg O Mutton & Trimmings Smithfield, John Waterfall father of William Waterfall and John Waterfall Jnr was a Publican somewhere.

I have sent away for a copy of the Will of John WATERFALL hoping it may shed further light on my ggg grandfather

As an aside does anyone know why he would be referred to as "sergeant" waterfall in 1817?? prior to becoming Constable!

Thanks Richard for all the information that I have gathered from the various sources in Sheffield. A bit here and a bit there add up to a growing picture.

I will continue to lurk, my knowledge is very limited.

regards

Terrie Waterfall

Coldstream

Australia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some thoughts on John Waterfall...apologies if I run over ground previously discussed in part.

At least four male Waterfalls came to Sheffield around the 1760s and 1770s: Thomas, John, Samuel and Joseph. John was a file smith whose family lived in and around Sandygate and Carsick for several generations; Samuel was a blacksmith and Joseph a flax dresser. Samuel and Joseph also started families in Sheffield.

John the constable should be the son of Thomas, of Upper Hallam, referred to as both labourer and husbandman in the BMD records. The wills of John (proved 1839), his son John junior (proved 1841) and brother George (proved 1855) provide excellent details for family links which tie in nicely with the available BMD evidence.

Thomas married Jemima Charlesworth in 1768 and a son, John, was baptised in 1772. He was apprenticed to Thomas Teasdale, cutler, in 1784 for nine years eight months. His brother Thomas followed suit in 1792, being apprenticed to Matthew Redfearn, knife maker of Upper Hallam, for eight years four months. Repeat of the name Jemima amongst the children of both John and Thomas should also be relevant.

It could be seen as unfortunate that there are two named John Waterfall dying in Sheffield in 1839. The newspaper and burial notices distinguish them: one as the constable and one as the confectioner...however, both are given as aged 67! The will of John the confectioner is of great value here because it names his parents. They were Joseph and Elizabeth. Joseph is almost guaranteed to be the Joseph "of Bakewell" who married Elizabeth Mekinson (St Peter's, Sheffield 1/5/1775) because a daughter, Catherine, also married a Mekinson. Key personnel mentioned in the will are as follows:

Brothers: Joseph & William

Sister: Catherine Makinson

Wife: Mary

Sons: John Gray & Henry

Father: Joseph

Mother: Elizabeth

Of some interest to me is how many times John might have been married - also bearing in mind the lack of (to date) an attested marriage to Margaret. There are some interesting possibilities!

19/3/1792 St Peter's, Sheffield, to Martha Tennant

?29/4/1794 St Peter's, Sheffield, to Ann Linfitt

1/5/1794, Dronfield, Derbyshire, to Hannah Linfitt

21/7/1798 St Peter's, Sheffield, to Elizabeth Green

13/10/1799 St Peter's, Sheffield, to Mary Vause

The first four sought licences - all suggest John was born around 1773. The first shows John (batch) and Martha (spinst) married by banns; Martha seems to have died in 1793. The last mentioned ought to be the wife of John the confectioner; the others are debatable, and the two marriage entries to Linfitt are connected in an interesting way. The marriage entry for St Peter's shows that it was not completed. It states, "when the ceremony was nearly concluded & the register thus far filled up the father of the woman came in & forbid the marriage, she being under age."

It looks like they were determined to marry because John obtained another marriage licence from another diocese and married Miss Linfit on 1st May. One Benjamin Banks[1], cutler, helped John with the licence bond. The two applications for a licence, one from York and one from Lichfield, have similar details: John is aged 21 and from Sheffield (York) with the added details that he was a cutler (Lichfield). Ann / Hannah is recorded as "of Sheffield" or what looks like "of Dore" in Derbyshire (now part of Sheffield).

The status of a marriage to Ann / Hannah Linfitt must remain open in respect of its impact upon any subsequent relationships. That this John married Elizabeth Green in 1798 also seems very likely. Elizabeth died early in 1800 (buried 29th January) and the burial entry describes her as the wife of John, cutler. Finally, Margaret is attested in a relationship with John by late 1800 or earlier if he is the father of their eldest son, born on 15th March 1801.

There is another John Waterfall, noted as a cutler, who died in Sheffield in 1821. The burial entry notes him to have been aged 36 at death, thus born around 1785. Such a man can be found as the son of Samuel Waterfall, blacksmith, but his age is such that he ought to be ruled out as a husband in these years[2]. He resided at Pea Croft, Sheffield, at his death.

Mention of trade (where mentioned) is likely to be helpful in identifying who married whom.

Attested children of a John Waterfall in Sheffield between 1791 and 1817

Name

Family

Location

Baptismal Date

Burial Date

Source

Mary

Daughter of John & Martha, cutler

St Peter’s, Sheffield

13/11/1791??

 

BT

Amelia

Daughter of John

St Peter’s, Sheffield

 

9/5/1794

Register

Mary Ann

Daughter of John, cutler

St Peter’s, Sheffield

 

15/1/1800

Register

John

Son of John & Margaret, cutler

St Peter’s, Sheffield / Attercliffe

3/5/1801

 

Register / BT

John Gray

Son of John & Mary, confectioner

St Peter’s, Sheffield

5/12/1802

 

Register

Jemima

Daughter of John & Margaret, cutler

St Peter’s, Sheffield / Atterclife

11/3/1803

 

Register / BT

Henry

Son of John & Martha, confectioner

St Peter’s, Sheffield

10/6/1804

 

Register

George

Son of John & Margaret, cutler

St Peter’s, Sheffield

20/2/1805

 

Register

George

Son of John, cutler

St Peter’s, Sheffield

 

7/1/1806

Register

Harriet

Daughter of John & Margaret, cutler

St Peter’s, Sheffield

31/12/1806

 

Register

Harriet

Daughter of John, cutler

St Peter’s, Sheffield

 

27/2/1807

Register

Sarah

Daughter of John & Margaret, cutler

St Peter’s, Sheffield

4/5/1808

 

Register

Sarah

Daughter of John, cutler

St Peter’s, Sheffield

 

19/12/1809

Register

William

Son of John & Margaret, cutler

St Peter’s, Sheffield

12/9/1810

 

Register

Jemima

Daughter of John, cutler of Castle Street

St Peter’s, Sheffield

 

29/1/1817

Register

We know from John’s will that there were two sons (John and William) and an assumed daughter living in 1836. The first child, Mary, must be the woman who married firstly Thomas Andrew(s) and then Thomas Burrows. George Waterfall was a witness at her marriage to the latter and she is also mentioned in his will as Mary Burrows, niece.

John’s widow Margaret should be the woman recorded as being buried on 17th December 1849 at St Peter’s. She was eighty two and had lived at Brook Place.


[1] Presumably, the man listed in Leader’s History of the Cutlers’ Company (p118) as Benjamin Banks, son of Benjamin Banks, cutler deceased, and apprenticed to Joshua Cawton jun, cutler, for 7 years in 1787.

[2] Leader, p387. Apprenticed in 1800 to Ebenezer Johnson, knife maker, for 7 years:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In 1836 John Waterfall senior was Acting Constable (of 3) for the Shambles, and John Waterfall junior was an Assistant Constable (of 3) also for the Shambles. 

Joseph Fearnehough (born 1808) dictated in his reminiscences that in about 1814 the only constable was Hinchcliff who kept the Greyhound Inn near Cooper Street, followed by "Jerry" Senior, and then Mr Waterfall, who was known as "Longfoot" and kept the Leg of Mutton and Trimmings at Smithfield.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The name Waterfall as a middle name runs through one of the blood lines of my family for generations.

When our family tree was researched we discovered one ancestor married someone with Waterfall as a surname. This must have been a female Waterfall who didn't want to lose her name, and so Waterfall was used as a middle name for their children and the trend continued for generations. One of my distant living relations has it as a middle name, but it will probably die with him as I don think he continued the trend with his children.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting information, provided by Edmund, on Constable Hinchcliff and the Greyhound. Did Hinchcliff occupy both positions at the same time, either as owner and/or landlord of the pub?

The Records of the Burgery of Sheffield, quoted elsewhere previously, show Sergeant Waterfall appointed Town Beadle subject to giving up keeping a public house either directly or indirectly. The mention is specific to Waterfall's appointment as Town Beadle, so not directly to his subsequent appointment as constable, although not wholly unrelated either. I believe the Town Beadle could act as an assistant to a constable so there seems to be an element of progression here with his later appointment as constable.

What might be the reason for the stipulation to John Waterfall that he give up any connection to keeping a public house? A later ruling, something specific to the person or the pub, or something else - perhaps business related? If alcohol was the issue then one might expect the same to have held for Hinchcliff (if he did hold both positions simultaneously) and any others in the same boat.

Some further informed comment would be appreciated.

 

For some reason LeadFarmer's post above reminded me of a good way (sometimes) to trace the putative father in cases of an illegitimate birth. Obviously, surnames were often used as middle names in the next generation, or those subsequent, arising from legitimate marriages - as with LeadFarmer. The surname, or even full name of a father, can also be used by the mother as a means of stating the parentage, particularly where the alleged father did not marry or support the child. I've found a couple of connections through this, notably an Alfred Axe Gilbert, from Market Rasen in 1851. His father (Alfred Axe) left Lincolnshire and went to Manchester to avoid the consequences!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...