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Tunnels under Sheffield

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SteveHB

I found the following in a scrapbook in the Local Studies Library by a man called Henry Tatton. Henry was born in 1861 and for 50 years kept an ironmongers stall in the Market Hall. He died in 1946, but at the age of 59, in 1920, he decided to learn to draw, and kept these scrapbooks of his drawings of Sheffield. He also scattered them with things he came across he thought were interesting. The following he got from the Sheffield Daily Telegraph, but didn't note the date. If you want to look it up it's in volume 3 of his notes, page 229.

"Underground passages in Sheffield.

There are old coal mine workings in the vicinity of Rockingham Street. The Manor passage may have been used to bring drinking water to the Park from the Manor well or spring. Then there was the wooden pipes made from hollowed tree trunks used to convey water from Brookhill to the Hartshead. These carrier passages are being put forward as subterranean passages. Fragments of tunnels found under the Castle Hill, same size as the Manor Passage. There is another passage at the Manor, going West. A passage was found underneath the road, from the Cross Keys Handsworth, running in the direction of Handsworth Church. Also another passage from Handsworth Church to the Manor, by Handsworth Hall Farm. Then a passage was found in the City Road brickfield. It ran in the direction of the Manor. Lined with dressed stones and high enough to walk in. The passage under the tramway Club in High Court, High Street leads into another passing under Cockayne's Arcade. Another passage found under Rodgers Pond Hill Works. Also one running towards the New Post Office from River Lane. Under the Hall in the Ponds, the built up end of another passage which ran towards the Midland Station.

When Priory Road Sharrow was made, a tunnel was found leading from the Old Priory towards the city. In it was found a built up Chamber. It contained a table and 2 oak chairs, some tumblers and a bottle. In one corner remnants of clothing, a rusty armour and a sword 3 feet long. A passage ran from near the present Heeley Station to Newfield Hall and then towards Sheffield castle. In 1925 a Mrs. Jenkinson said an old man told her he had traversed it all the way and said it was about 6 ft. high. One end of it is near Meersbrook Park Rd in the old farmstead buildings. A passage near Glossop Rd led into old coal workings and to a shaft at the corner of Convent Walk."

I have highlighted the part of Bayleafs post that I'm about to make comment on

Back in my younger days of the mid 60's I was very fortunate that

The Farm (part of the Duke of Norfolk estate)) and it's surrounding grounds was one of my childhood play areas,

my aunty Edna worked for British Rail, employed as a cleaner by

BR who at the time used the large house as offices,

also my father rented an allotment in the private grounds of the house.

The caretakers of The Farm 'Mable and Sidney Watson' became family friends,

and their son David became my playmate.

I could go off topic and add a lot more,

but we are talking about tunnels here.

At the back of the house (only part shown on the map)

situated on the east side of it was an old walled garden,

and behind the east wall of the garden were stables and a court yard.

Built into the wall was an old doorway that was either to the left or to

the right of the stables buildings, not directly behind them,

though I can't remember on which side.

We were told by our parents that the door lead to a tunnel,

though it was partly blocked with planks of wood and rubble

and my mate and I would often peer into it,

but all we could see was that it went very steeply downwards and then into darkness.

I well remember one occasion that we were told to keep away from the area

as some people were coming to take a look at the tunnel entrance,

but we as kids and curiosity taking over we had to take a quick look,

there were about half a dozen people, some were wearing suits.

After they had left we found that the doorway had been totally blocked up,

since that day of forty odd years ago,

I have neither heard nor seen any reports of the findings.

I am in no way making any suggestions as to where this tunnel,

'If it was a tunnel' lead to.

But what I have said here are true facts,

it's up to you to make your own decision.

E to W line from where the walled garden was.

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Bayleaf

This article first appeared in the Transactions of the Hunter Archaeological Society , and is reproduced here by kind permission of the Society

THE UNDERGROUND PASSAGE IN MANOR LANE

BY JAMES R. WIGFULL. F.R.I.B.A.

Secret chambers and underground passages possess a great fascination for nearly everyone, little wonder therefore, that when the trench dug for a sewer in Manor Lane revealed the presence of a stone-lined passage, interest was at once aroused and many suggestions made concerning its origin and purpose.

Souterrains or underground passages are well known adjuncts of old castles, houses and churches. Mr. S.O. Addy in his book, Church and Manor (pp. 91-98), gives several examples of their existence in this country and in France. Those connected with French churches were frequently used as places of refuge in times of war, although many of them seem to have been originally formed as quarries. Mr. Addy writes,

"The Icelandic sagas frequently mention the 'earth-house,' or underground opening into a dwelling-house, which was used for hiding, or as a means of escape."

He also refers to the finding, about thirty years ago, of a passage near the Hartshead which

"pointed towards the east end of the church, from which the part opened was about 200 yards distant."

It should be noted that Mr. Addy says it "pointed towards," not that it led to the church, a distinction which some writers upon the passage in Manor Lane might study with advantage.

While the existence of short underground passages in connection with certain classes of buildings is a well established fact, it is very doubtful if passages existed, or were even practicable, between buildings which were a considerable distance apart. The provision of reasonably fresh air and the engineering difficulties likely to be encountered would render the construction of long passages impossible with the limited resources of mediaeval times.

Claims that passages exist between buildings a mile, or it may be several miles, apart, should be subjected to common-sense rules, the most important of which is - has such a passage been explored from end to end? Other points worthy of consideration are - were any such passages necessary, was their construction practicable, and were the buildings said to be connected by them of contemporary date?

It has been frequently asserted that the Manor Lodge was connected by underground passages with the Castle and the Old Hall in the Ponds, both of which were upwards of a mile from the Lodge and both separated from it, not only by distance, but by the River Sheaf.

The Manor Lodge stood in the midst of a large Park, one border of which extended to the river bank; the Castle stood upon a "little hill" on the other side of the river. The whole of the land between the Lodge and the Castle was under the direct control of the Earls of Shrewsbury. The times when the Lodge was built in the early years of the sixteenth century were peaceful, and the Lodge itself was never fortified. For what reason would underground passages be required, and how were they carried under the river or the swampy area known as "the Ponds?"

Old maps show that less than one hundred years ago this area was a network of ponds and streams which supplied power to numerous mills and wheels. Culverts or, according to popular legend, "underground passages," are frequently found when buildings in this area are demolished, but the materials and workmanship used in their construction show at once that they are of a much later date than the sixteenth century.

Other local examples of underground passages are said to exist at Beauchief, and it is stated that one of these connected the Abbey with the Hall. The Abbey was dismantled in 1537, or shortly afterwards; the Hall was built in 1671.

It may be replied that it was the Monk's Grange, and not the present Hall, which was so connected with the Abbey; the Grange is thought to have stood upon, or near, the site of the Hall. No evidence of the exploration of this passage is given, it is simply asserted that it exists. For what reason was it necessary ? The Abbey and Grange stood within the boundaries of the Monastic domain and no one would have dreamed of molesting the monks in their progress from one place to the other.

Then, too, imagine the effect of an underground passage upon their white garments.

Mr. Thomas Winder has very kindly placed at my disposal a letter written upwards of thirty years ago by his father, the late Mr. Edmund Winder. The letter refers to the discovery of an underground passage in Manor Lane and the description agrees almost exactly with that of the passage recently found. The letter is as follows :-

"It is not yet clear for what object the passage lately discovered at the Manor was constructed. Its existence, for a length of about 30 yards from a cellar on the east side of the old Manor-building, with which it communicates, appears to have been known for many years to residents at the Manor, but it was thought that it stopped at that point.

It proves to have been only broken in, and has now been traversed to a distance of about 70 yards from the Buildings where there is another stoppage, but whether the drain ends there or not is at present uncertain. Further explorations will doubtless be made.

The passage is about 4 ft. 6 ins. in height and about 2 feet in width - covered over with strong flat stone covers, one of which broke under the blows of the pick of one of the Water Company's men whilst cutting a trench for water-pipes along the road in front of the old buildings, this led to the discovery.

The direction of the passage is eastwards pointing almost direct to the butt of the new rifle range. At present it is a puzzle - very large for an outlet drain - small for an underground passage."

There seems little doubt that the passage described by Mr. Winder is part of the same one opened in March, 1924.

By the kindness of Mr. A. Smith Denton, Agent for the Duke of Norfolk's Sheffield Estates, I am able to give a plan showing the Manor buildings in relation to the recently found passage. The point at which the new sewer cuts across the passage is 53 yards to the east of the Manor building, and at this point the bottom of the passage is 8ft. 9 ins. below the roadway.

The passage averages 4 ft. 6ins. in height and 1 ft. 9 ins. in width. The bottom is formed with flat stones or flags and the top is covered with similar stones. The side walls are built of flat-bedded stones, not chiselled or dressed, and all the joints are solidly filled with clay. The ground above the passage showed distinct evidence of the trench which was cut when the passage was formed.

The regularity of the cutting and the character of the stonework suggest that the passage was constructed in comparatively modern times. The foreman engaged upon the new sewer agreed with the view that the passage was similar in construction to that of the rubble sewers which were formerly usual in Sheffield.

It must be remembered that the Manor buildings were far many years divided into cottages, and it seems probable that this passage was the drain or sewer which served them. Some, at least, of the cellars in the eastern part of the building, with which the passage is said to communicate, are of comparatively recent construction, and were not part of the original building, but formed part of the cottages.

The passage has a regular fall towards the east. It extends about 10 yards towards the west from the point where the new sewer cuts through it, and 39 yards towards the east. It is blocked at both ends. The land falls rapidly towards the east, and unless the gradient dips considerably immediately after the present blocked end is passed, the passage would soon have an open outlet on the hillside.

Mr. Thomas Winder recollects seeing an outlet in the hillside and believes the side stones of the passage he saw were bedded in clay.

Archaeologists are indebted to Mr. W.J. Hadfield, the City Surveyor, for the prompt manner in which he drew attention to the discovery of the passage, and for the facilities he readily afforded to all who desired to make an examination of it.

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RichardB

Thanks to you and HAS - a great read.

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RichardB

Thanks Bayleaf for another interesting article.

Addy's Church and Manor, referred to in the article, can be found on archive.org here: http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924014033173

Failed three times to get that download. Try again tomorrow.

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Bayleaf

This article first appeared in the Transactions of the Hunter Archaeological Society and is reproduced by kind permission of the Society.

THE HARTSHEAD TUNNEL.

In the summer of 1939 the Sheffield Transport Department took steps to provide an air raid shelter at its canteen in Hartshead. The premises almost faced the end of High Court and had two floors below ground level, the lower cellar being a barrel-vaulted chamber about twenty feet long and twelve feet wide, the long axis being parallel to Hartshead and the floor approximately eighteen feet below ground level. Whilst probing the foot of the eastern wall of this cellar the workmen broke through into a cavity and, on enlarging the hole in the wall, were enabled to descend about three feet on to the floor of a passage cut in solid sandstone.

I was invited to inspect this tunnel by an official of the Transport Department and, on stepping down into it from the floor of the cellar, found myself in a square cut tunnel about four feet wide and just over five feet high, so that the officials and I had to stoop slightly in walking along it. The sides were cleanly cut out of the rock and the masons' tool marks showed plainly on the upright surfaces. The roof was not so regular, the floor was sandy and slightly wet in places, and the general direction was almost due east and west.

The level tended to fall as we proceeded along the tunnel, until, after about thirty yards further progress was arrested by the tunnel being bricked up; at this point we should have reached the western boundary wall of Messrs. T. B. & W. Cockayne's premises and, if we had broken through the bricked-up end, would probably have found ourselves in their basement, which was at a lower level than the cellar we had just proceeded from.

Retracing our steps to the cellar we were shown at the foot of the western wall a cavity where a few bricks had been taken from the wall to prove that the tunnel continued to the west, but the hole had not then been enlarged to admit of access to that portion of it.

It is not possible to say that the portion of the tunnel we visited was the same as that described by Mr. S. 0. Addy in his book Church and Manor, [see Post no 29 above] but we are inclined to agree with him that it was not a drain. Mr. Upton is of the opinion ,that it was an entry to colliery workings and that the entrance to it originally was W the neighbourhood of Townhead Street, others believe it ran from Sheffield Castle to a vault in the Parish Church Yard, but our purpose here is not con­jecture, but to record the fact that we have been in a portion of a tunnel running below buildings on the north side of Hartshead, a tunnel that has been broken into and interrupted at a number of points, such as the basements of the Sheffield Telegraph premises, the Sheffield Transport Canteen, Messrs. T. B. & W. Cockayne Ltd, and Burton's building in Market Place on the site of the old "Shambles."

In the air raid on Sheffield of the night of 12th-13th December, 1940 the Transport Canteen was entirely destroyed, as was indeed much of the property surrounding it, including Messrs. T. B. & W. Cockayne's premises, the whole of the north side of King Street, and the Brightside & Carbrook Co-operative Society's store on the site of the Castle itself, leaving almost a clean run from Hartshead to the Castle site free of buildings.

Is it -too much to hope that before any recon­struction takes place the tunnel might be explored and an endeavour made to trace its progress from end to end?

A further plea might be made to the Corporation that the Castle site is of such historic importance to Sheffield that the portion now vacant should not again be built upon, but should be excavated under supervision and the foundations of the ancient structure laid bare to be preserved as a record for all time of the centre and mainspring of our city's existence.

The photographs illustrating this note were taken by Mr. F. H. Brindley, to whom we express our gratitude for permission to reproduce them here.

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RichardB

Nice one Bayleaf, Thank you.

This from Evilsprout, the Demicabbage of Darkness regarding the Hartshead Ghost.

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hilldweller

This article first appeared in the Transactions of the Hunter Archaeological Society and is reproduced by kind permission of the Society.

THE HARTSHEAD TUNNEL.

In the summer of 1939 the Sheffield Transport Department took steps to provide an air raid shelter at its canteen in Hartshead. The premises almost faced the end of High Court and had two floors below ground level, the lower cellar being a barrel-vaulted chamber about twenty feet long and twelve feet wide, the long axis being parallel to Hartshead and the floor approximately eighteen feet below ground level. Whilst probing the foot of the eastern wall of this cellar the workmen broke through into a cavity and, on enlarging the hole in the wall, were enabled to descend about three feet on to the floor of a passage cut in solid sandstone.

I was invited to inspect this tunnel by an official of the Transport Department and, on stepping down into it from the floor of the cellar, found myself in a square cut tunnel about four feet wide and just over five feet high, so that the officials and I had to stoop slightly in walking along it. The sides were cleanly cut out of the rock and the masons' tool marks showed plainly on the upright surfaces. The roof was not so regular, the floor was sandy and slightly wet in places, and the general direction was almost due east and west.

The level tended to fall as we proceeded along the tunnel, until, after about thirty yards further progress was arrested by the tunnel being bricked up; at this point we should have reached the western boundary wall of Messrs. T. B. & W. Cockayne's premises and, if we had broken through the bricked-up end, would probably have found ourselves in their basement, which was at a lower level than the cellar we had just proceeded from.

Retracing our steps to the cellar we were shown at the foot of the western wall a cavity where a few bricks had been taken from the wall to prove that the tunnel continued to the west, but the hole had not then been enlarged to admit of access to that portion of it.

It is not possible to say that the portion of the tunnel we visited was the same as that described by Mr. S. 0. Addy in his book Church and Manor, but we are inclined to agree with him that it was not a drain. Mr. Upton is of the opinion ,that it was an entry to colliery workings and that the entrance to it originally was W the neighbourhood of Townhead Street, others believe it ran from Sheffield Castle to a vault in the Parish Church Yard, but our purpose here is not con­jecture, but to record the fact that we have been in a portion of a tunnel running below buildings on the north side of Hartshead, a tunnel that has been broken into and interrupted at a number of points, such as the basements of the Sheffield Telegraph premises, the Sheffield Transport Canteen, Messrs. T. B. & W. Cockayne Ltd, and Burton's building in Market Place on the site of the old "Shambles."

In the air raid on Sheffield of the night of 12th-13th December, 1940 the Transport Canteen was entirely destroyed, as was indeed much of the property surrounding it, including Messrs. T. B. & W. Cockayne's premises, the whole of the north side of King Street, and the Brightside & Carbrook Co-operative Society's store on the site of the Castle itself, leaving almost a clean run from Hartshead to the Castle site free of buildings.

Is it -too much to hope that before any recon­struction takes place the tunnel might be explored and an endeavour made to trace its progress from end to end?

A further plea might be made to the Corporation that the Castle site is of such historic importance to Sheffield that the portion now vacant should not again be built upon, but should be excavated under supervision and the foundations of the ancient structure laid bare to be preserved as a record for all time of the centre and mainspring of our city's existence.

The photographs illustrating this note were taken by Mr. F. H. Brindley, to whom we express our gratitude for permission to reproduce them here.

Between the years 1984 and about 1990 I worked with a Mr. Frank H. Brindley, the son of the Frank H. Brindley mentioned above. From what I gathered Mr. Brindley Senior was a professional or semi-professional photography and had a keen interest in things Sheffield or unusual. Mr. Brindley Junior retired in about 1990 and died a few years ago, he lived at Greenhill.

Frank used to bring in many of his father's photographs of things like old tunnels and wells. He had photos of the old tunnel discovered under Waingate during sewer work.

One set I particulary remember were of WW2 high explosive bombs, thousands of them laid in huge piles along the sides of remote country roads in the peak district. Apparently these bombs were filled but not primed, but the way they were piled up makes me think it must have been late in the war when enemy air attack was thought unlikely.

Frank Junior was a compulsive hoarder and I hope that his collection of old photographs has been rescued because they were of very high quality and would be of great interest to many people.

HD

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Guest Falls2

They do exist. The hartshead tunnels absolutely certainly. If you look at the pictures available from when the hole in road was blocked: you can see they did not backfill, only brick up one end. When it was being constructed they came across the hartshead tunnels. They can be accessed from the bankers draft and the dove and rainbow and i believe were meant to run to the don. If you go to ladysbridge, and look on the wicker side, you can see a tunnel entrance (albeit small) that runs to the cellar of a demolished pub.

There is also a tunnel running from the police station to the former court house on waingate.

Mary queen of scots tunnel? No chance.

Hello,

Two things:

1 - I was still living in Sheffield when the hole in the road was dug/built. If my memory serves me right, the partially blocked opening shown in the photo was one of four pedestrian walkways which gave access into the 'Hole' itself. This particular opening/tunnel only extended about 30 feet beyond the partially built wall. Then you either turned left and went up an escalator into High Street or you turn right and went up a ramp into Angel Street. The tunnel did NOT penetrate the building behind in fact there was a great deal of amusement that a tunnel would be built at that particular location at all. Remember the building used to be the Market Place Branch of the Midland Bank. There was quite a bit of joking about the end wall of the tunnel coming so close to the banks foundation. An open invitation, some people thought, for a few "Likely Lads" from a well known housing estate to try their luck at bank robbery.

2 - As for the tunnel between the Police Station and the Old Town Hall/Court House, I went therough it in the mid 1950's. This was as a visitor on a guided tour - not as a felon. Most people will remember the central Police Station used to be up a long flight of stairs in Castle Green, next to the Hen and Chickens P.H. But the Charge Office was right behind the station in Water Lane.

The tunnel had been dug so that "customers" could be brought from the Charge Office through the Castle Green "Nick" and into the Court building without having to take them outside and run the risk of them escaping . Apart from being shown around the various departments in the Castle Green Station itself; we also visited the photographic department. At the time, this was in rooms in the Court building, facing onto Waingate. That's how I came to go through the tunnel.

Regards

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SteveHB

If you go to ladysbridge, and look on the wicker side, you can see a tunnel entrance (albeit small) that runs to the cellar of a demolished pub.

Link to photo

In this post

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vox

Every time I drive over this I wonder what's under it.

I assume it's access to the sewers, but I don't think I've seen any others as big as this one.

When you get close up to it, you can see that there are hinges or clasps at the edges.

Are there any more of these? Where are they and why so big.

Google Steetwiew

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Guest Mr X

There is talk of another entrance to these tunnels via the wicker archers. I have looked into this over the years and after rumours that it was in the archers near the mermorial i have actually found out its the building next to the newly built ring round. The building is all bricked up and fenced off, now with all that work why was this left it is not a listed building. The entrace is in the cellar with a fairly hefty steel door, i saw this as a young boy and was always wanting to know what was behind it but the owners at the time didn't have access. My attempts to find out what this is goes unanswered by the council with them stating that no door exists. Was only when i got older i put 2 and 2 together and realised that this was probally the entrance.

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RichardB

Castle to Manor Lodge, approximately 1.34 miles as the subterranean crow flies, Castle to Hartshead 860 feet or thereabouts. Just to fuel the arguement.,

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History dude

Just to stop the argument.

There are no Tunnels from Manor Lodge to anywhere.

There are large drains that were built to take sewage away from the Manor, plus an extensive conduit system to pipe water to the Manor. Some of which is very ancient.

However the whole area is covered in old mine workings, which will account for holes appearing all over the place.

It would have been impossible to build a tunnel from the Manor to the Castle in Elizabethan times, due to the fact it would have constantly flooded. Also it would have filled up with dangerous gases that would have either caused an explosion or suffocated the persons traveling down any tunnel. Something that was only solved when mines were ventilated using machines.

There was no need also to build one. Mary Stuart was treated like a Queen (even though she actually wasn't any longer) and Queens do not travel in tunnels. There was no need to move her in secret as she had too many servants, which filled up most of the small town of Sheffield. In fact these servants regularly travelled back and forth from the lodgings in Town to the Manor when she was in residence at the Manor.

It was impossible to build an escape tunnel as the removal of the soil would have been spotted by the Earl's people.

The Tunnel story is entirely down to the false teaching and history and propaganda associated with Mary Stuart. As long as the false information that Mary Stuart was "imprisoned" in Sheffield and England, is still being spread around, people will use it to add to the tale that tunnels where built to help her escape.

As someone connected in the early stages of opening up the Manor Lodge to the public, I can tell you that the tunnel thing drove archaeologists up the wall refuting it and lots of the members too. An early open day found one of the members telling a member of the public who had turned up with their kids to go down the tunnels, that there are no tunnels to go down. That's how silly this thing has become! :rolleyes:

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hilldweller

Every time I drive over this I wonder what's under it.

I assume it's access to the sewers, but I don't think I've seen any others as big as this one.

When you get close up to it, you can see that there are hinges or clasps at the edges.

Are there any more of these? Where are they and why so big.

uploads/monthly_03_2010/post-3521-126855932492_thumb.jpg uploads/monthly_03_2010/post-3521-126855945281_thumb.jpg

Google Steetwiew

Here's another one at the bottom of Stumperlowe Lane, almost at the junction with Fulwood Road.

They were put in at various places around Sheffield by Yorkshire Water to prevent the contamination of water courses by sewage during storms.

The old solution was to build weirs in sewers with a pipe leading to the nearest river/stream. When the sewer surcharged during heavy rain the sewage, heavily diluted by rain, ran over the weir and into the river. This was thought to be acceptable at the time.

In these more enlightened times this is no longer allowed.

Beneath the grid of covers are very large tanks to hold back the flow during storms and the weirs now discharge into these tanks until the storm has abated.

The tanks are fitted with very large submersible pumps which pump the sewage back into the sewers when flows are back to normal.

The tank lids are laid on heavy girders to make a big enough hole to be able to withdraw the pumps for servicing/repair.

There is normally an adjacent green painted equipment cabinet for the pump controllers and level switch equipment.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.365706,-1.53733,3a,75y,237.69h,41.9t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sr_qcoBlROM0jBAHPTrW5zg!2e0?hl=en

HD

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Bayleaf

Just to stop the argument.

There are no Tunnels from Manor Lodge to anywhere.

There are large drains that were built to take sewage away from the Manor, plus an extensive conduit system to pipe water to the Manor. Some of which is very ancient.

However the whole area is covered in old mine workings, which will account for holes appearing all over the place.

It would have been impossible to build a tunnel from the Manor to the Castle in Elizabethan times, due to the fact it would have constantly flooded. Also it would have filled up with dangerous gases that would have either caused an explosion or suffocated the persons traveling down any tunnel. Something that was only solved when mines were ventilated using machines.

There was no need also to build one. Mary Stuart was treated like a Queen (even though she actually wasn't any longer) and Queens do not travel in tunnels. There was no need to move her in secret as she had too many servants, which filled up most of the small town of Sheffield. In fact these servants regularly travelled back and forth from the lodgings in Town to the Manor when she was in residence at the Manor.

It was impossible to build an escape tunnel as the removal of the soil would have been spotted by the Earl's people.

The Tunnel story is entirely down to the false teaching and history and propaganda associated with Mary Stuart. As long as the false information that Mary Stuart was "imprisoned" in Sheffield and England, is still being spread around, people will use it to add to the tale that tunnels where built to help her escape.

As someone connected in the early stages of opening up the Manor Lodge to the public, I can tell you that the tunnel thing drove archaeologists up the wall refuting it and lots of the members too. An early open day found one of the members telling a member of the public who had turned up with their kids to go down the tunnels, that there are no tunnels to go down. That's how silly this thing has become! :rolleyes:

You and I will always differ about the 'imprisonment' thing HDude, but thank you for putting the tunnels to rest!

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vox

Took a while, 4 years or so, but at usual "the answer was out there somewhere".

Thanks HD. I can now end 4 years of sleepless nights. lol

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History dude

You and I will always differ about the 'imprisonment' thing HDude, but thank you for putting the tunnels to rest!

Differing with me on that does George Talbot a real injustice. If you care to go to his tomb and read the inscription you will find no mention of him imprisioning her at all.

However if you are a Catholic, that would explain it, you would have sympathy with Mary on those grounds. Only trouble is that Mary was only a Catholic when it suited her. She was quite willing to change her religion if it got her out of her protective custody.

I wouldn't recommend going back in time if that is the case to find out. Otherwise you will need plenty of Asprin for the neck pain! lol

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Waterside Echo

Differing with me on that does George Talbot a real injustice. If you care to go to his tomb and read the inscription you will find no mention of him imprisioning her at all.

However if you are a Catholic, that would explain it, you would have sympathy with Mary on those grounds. Only trouble is that Mary was only a Catholic when it suited her. She was quite willing to change her religion if it got her out of her protective custody.

I wouldn't recommend going back in time if that is the case to find out. Otherwise you will need plenty of Asprin for the neck pain! lol

Why not just agree to disagree both of you. If you want something to get your teeth into tell me this. Number 19 Shrewsbury Road is still standing and in use, why? The rest of the area, houses, churches, and pubs etc were all cleared years ago. W/E.

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RichardB

Awww, come on lets continue to argue about non-existant tunnels ....

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Bayleaf

Why not just agree to disagree both of you. If you want something to get your teeth into tell me this. Number 19 Shrewsbury Road is still standing and in use, why? The rest of the area, houses, churches, and pubs etc were all cleared years ago. W/E.

I thought we just did? Sort of? ;-)

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RichardB

Interesting question. I don't know the relevance of 19 Shrewsbury Road though ????

Must keep up.

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vox

It's a listed building. That's about all I know. - Offices of some sort - End of Bunghay (Bungay) Street ?

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SteveHB

19 Shrewsbury Road SH link

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History dude

I suspect the Sweet Factory being saved was a lot to do with my friend Dave Clarson when he was connected with the Manor and Castle Development Trust. It was used by them for a short time after it was restored.

Dave was also connected with redevelopment of much of the area around the Manor Lodge. He has done a great deal of work around the city connected with regeneration. He was even recognised by the Queen for it.

He has a knack of sorting out community projects that have got into financial problems and turning them around. Last time I saw him he was based at the Burton Street project, another one he rescued, turning an old school into a very viable project and keeping much of the features of the old school building. It was under pressure of closure, but not any more.

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