St Pauls remnants

[Guest Uppsy_Daisy]

Hi, I don't know if this has been said before, but I have read somewhere that pieces of St Pauls church which was situated at the peace gardens site, ornaments and oddments from it is scattered around various parts of the city.

Some of the parts were taken to a church at Arbourthorne, it even had the same name, but this church is now demolished.

A house in Trap Lane has part of a frieze that belong to St Pauls and stone decorations that was part of the dome can be seen at Bents Green used as garden ornaments (not sure if they are still there?)

But does anyone know where the other pieces are? Photos of any would be a added bonus!

[RichardB]

I have read (cannot for the life of me remember where) that the most important remnants (i.e. the interred) where not re-buried in 1938; and were only removed during the lastest revamp, when the Peace Gardens and the Bus Shelters and such were removed and they made - well, whatever it is now.

Any thoughts anyone ?

[Guest Uppsy_Daisy]

I saw this on the general chat forum about the Peace Gardens and about the interred residents and also saw a few pictures of some of the demolished church surrounding peoples homes, But what happened to the rest? I have read that oddments and pieces of the church is scattered around the town centre, but doesn't tell you what and where?

Posted by: John Jun 25 2007, 08:10 AM

QUOTE(ceegee @ Jun 25 2007, 08:56 AM)

I was wondering what happened to both the organ and the mural monument when the church was demolished.

I also want to know what happened to the "occupants" of the churchyard. I believe burials ceased in 1855 - were the remains re-interred and if so where?

My Uncle worked on the project, I think it was just before WW2. He told me they had to stack all the headstones along the back wall, but the "residents" were just dug in as it were.

This is not an uncommon practice, many graves are only leased for 25 years and if the family dont renew they just put some one else on top.

Posted by: ceegee Jun 25 2007, 10:02 AM

[ceegee]

Just an update - an article in "The Flowing Stream" Summer 1996 - vol17 no 2, (the journal of the Sheffield and District FHS), states that when the churchyard was cleared in 1938 all the remains or what was left, were exhumed and re-interred in just 14 graves in Sheffield's Abbey Lane Cemetery. Once re-interred in Abbey Lane a large stone cross was erected there in memory of all those who had been buried in St Paul's churchyard.

Can anyone tell me where this cross is in Abbey Lane Cemetery, and more to the point the location of the 14 graves?

[Unitedite Returns]

I went to have a look around the restored and recently reopened Shepherd Wheel Site over the weekend.

What an excellent restoration job has been done there.

However, coming back to the matter in hand, they do appear to have acquired, at some point in the past a rather substantive grave marker from St Pauls.

One of a pair of two, the other now seemingly mislaid, this monument appears special in so much that it is circular in profile and was obviously recycled from a cut down grind stone, although one that was probably discarded as having some defect prior to use, as it lacks the usual central hole that would have accomodated the axle.

Although much worn, some writing and a date of 1713, or maybe 1715 can still be clearly discerned.

Probably the grave marker of a grinder, hence its' acquisition by the Shepherd Wheel Museum.

[Bayleaf]

I went to have a look around the restored and recently reopened Shepherd Wheel Site over the weekend.

What an excellent restoration job has been done there.

However, coming back to the matter in hand, they do appear to have acquired, at some point in the past a rather substantive grave marker from St Pauls.

One of a pair of two, the other now seemingly mislaid, this monument appears special in so much that it is circular in profile and was obviously recycled from a cut down grind stone, although one that was probably discarded as having some defect prior to use, as it lacks the usual central hole that would have accomodated the axle.

Although much worn, some writing and a date of 1713, or maybe 1715 can still be clearly discerned.

Probably the grave marker of a grinder, hence its' acquisition by the Shepherd Wheel Museum.

I've tried for ages to make out what remains of the lettering. At the opening recently I asked if any progress had been made, and was told they'd identified the person concerned and there was a connection with Shepherd Wheel, but didn't have the information to hand.

I'm prety sure it was never a grindstone, the stone has flaked rather like slate. Can I ask what information you have about it being one of a pair, and from St Paul's? Any information gratefully received!

[Unitedite Returns]

I've tried for ages to make out what remains of the lettering. At the opening recently I asked if any progress had been made, and was told they'd identified the person concerned and there was a connection with Shepherd Wheel, but didn't have the information to hand.

I'm prety sure it was never a grindstone, the stone has flaked rather like slate. Can I ask what information you have about it being one of a pair, and from St Paul's? Any information gratefully received!

The information was communicated to me verbally by a member of SIMT who was "working" at the Shepherd Wheel that day.

It was his opinion that the stone was probably a discarded grindstone reject.

I believe, without mentioning any actual names, that he did seem quite knowlegable about the industry, having worked in the "cutlery trade" and I seem no reason to disbelieve him.

There was no mention during our conversation as to whether the "writing" had been deciphered and we debated a great deal about whether a pencil rubbing of the remaining engravings might cast some light on the matter.

For my own part and from the little that I could decipher myself, I suspect that the stone might actually record a double internment.

The upper text recording that of an adult and beneath that, further text, recording that of a child, as possibly indicated by the phrase "? years and ? (possibly seven) months", engraved beneath.

Certainly, any internments from the period 1713 to 1715 would have been captured by the Yorkshire Archaelogical Society's transcription of The Parish Register of Sheffield, Volume 7, Burials 1703 to 1719, published 1989, so even a partial translation should yeild the identity of this [these] individuals.

I did trawl through this myself yesterday, but I did not have enough clues by which to identify these people.

I must say that I did not realise that St Pauls had been in existence as early as 1713 - 1715, but at the end of the day, positive identification of the individual and their record of interment would settle the matter either way.

I hope that this helps some.

Kindest regards;

N

[Bayleaf]

Thanks for that. It was one of the Council team who said they'd traced it, so I'll try and contact them.

St Paul's was built 1720/21, but wasn't opened until 1738. Burial records date from 1743, and burials ceased in 1855.

[RichardB]

Earlier than I thought too. By about 20 years; an interesting poser you have set - I'm otherwise occupied - from memory only 1720 with it not opened till 1740's due to an arguement about who appointed the incumbent.

I must say that I did not realise that St Pauls had been in existence as early as 1713 - 1715, but at the end of the day, positive identification of the individual and their record of interment would settle the matter either way.

[Bayleaf]

Thanks for that. It was one of the Council team who said they'd traced it, so I'll try and contact them.

St Paul's was built 1720/21, but wasn't opened until 1738. Burial records date from 1743, and burials ceased in 1855.

However, I've a number of photos of the stone taken in different lighting conditions. Have a look at this one.

If you look closely at the date line, it appears to read "...ary ye 10 1743" not 1713. However, over the final '3' there's what could be a '4'?

If it is 1743, then it could indeed be from St Paul's, and one of the earliest recorded.

What do you think?

[HughW]

Since this is before 1752, the '4' above the '3' will be part of an 'old style' date, January or February 1743/4 - 1744 according to our modern calendar.

[Bayleaf]

Since this is before 1752, the '4' above the '3' will be part of an 'old style' date, January or February 1743/4 - 1744 according to our modern calendar.

Thanks Hugh. Above the '10' there is what appears to be a 'd' . Is this the old style for the present 'th' as in 10th?

[History dude]

Looks to me like it was the grave of a child. As the very last words are: Aged - (new line) ......... (lost number) ... 3 months.

To add the months on graves in my experiance often shows it to be a child.

Perhaps the child of a grinder?

Never seen a grindstone used as a gravestone before. Are there any others anywhere?

[Unitedite Returns]

What that means [1743/1744] unfortunately, is that the internment is too "young" to have been transcribed by the Yorkshire Archaeological Society - Hunter Society [internments 1560 to 1736] and too "old" to have been transcribed by the Sheffield and District FHS [internments 1813 to 1855 and onwards]. It falls within the grey zone of 1737 to 1812] and from what I understand, these internment records are only available on film-fiche.

Also unfortunately and as it so happens, through my own researches, I am presently trawling through internments covered by Sheffield, St Peter CMB; St Paul, St James, Attercliffe & Ecclesall C+B From 1747- 1774, [Film Number: 919325; Roll Number: 230 ENGL66] and I have only recently trawled through internments covered by Sheffield, Parish Church of St Peter CMB and St Paul, Attercliffe Chapelry and Ecclesall Chapelry CB From 1774 to 1790 [Film Number: 919326; Roll Number: 231 ENGL66].

As a result of this, I do not as yet have any access to any corresponding internment records for the period 1737 to 1743, otherwise I would have liked to have had a quick look for these individuals myself.

So, if anyone happens to be around the Sheffield Archives and can spare a little time, then please have a look. If not, I will certainly have a look myself, when I finally do get access, but that might not be for some months to come.

On a positive side, however there would appear to be very few internments being recorded at St Pauls during the period in question.

Typically, there are less than a dozen per month being recorded after 1747, so hopefully, some of these people should not be too difficult to track down????

At a guess and from what I think that I have deciphered, I would think that perhaps a "Michael Edwards" sometime around January / February 1743 / 1744. What does anyone else think?

[Unitedite Returns]

^{I have just turned up the following "grinder's gravestone" photograph [s07761] held on the Picture Sheffield" website.}

^{http://www.picturesh...n=zoom&id=10936}

^{This grave marker can still be found at the Shepherd's Wheel and stands alongside it's more exotically carved "neighbour" which has been extensively photographed and kindly recorded above by Bayleaf.}

^{I must admit that when I originally saw this monument at the Shepherd's Wheel, I assumed that the very basic carving of two initials denoted either a stone mason's, or a quarryman's marks and that as a consequence, that it was simply, a discarded grind stone.}

^{I was rather surprised to find that it is also a grave marker recovered from St Pauls, but I am also rather pleased to learn that there are now two such examples surviving.}

[Unitedite Returns]

And here it seems, on the "Picture Sheffield" website, is the grave marker, that was photographed by Bayleaf.

http://www.picturesheffield.com/frontend.php?keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;y01009&pos=45&action=zoom&id=48132

[Edmund]

I'm surprised that more grindstones weren't used a grave markers - maybe the idea was thought to be disrespectful to the departed. But there must have been a lot of old grindstones to be disposed of when the grinding industry was going at full speed - what happened to them all? There was a market for virtually everything, down to old bone dust.

The worn out stones had a particular name - "grindlecoke". I know on a small scall they were used as stools and kitchen trivets. Mary Ann on occasion used them for rattening (put one inside the water wheel and let it knock itself to pieces). In the seventies my Dad buried one in the middle of the lawn as the base for a rotary clothes drier, and he used one as a step to access a higher piece of the garden.

Were they used in building? Possibly chopped up as cobblestones? Did any merchants specialise in their disposal?

[DaveH]

I'm surprised that more grindstones weren't used a grave markers - maybe the idea was thought to be disrespectful to the departed. But there must have been a lot of old grindstones to be disposed of when the grinding industry was going at full speed - what happened to them all?

Were they used in building? Possibly chopped up as cobblestones? Did any merchants specialise in their disposal?

Well, our member Tollbar Jay once told us he had over 100 of them he had collected in his back garden.

Somewhere on here is a photo that he posted showing some of them.

We have not heard of Tollbar Jay since he went on an expidition down a river culvert under the town centre.

[Bayleaf]

I'm surprised that more grindstones weren't used a grave markers - maybe the idea was thought to be disrespectful to the departed. But there must have been a lot of old grindstones to be disposed of when the grinding industry was going at full speed - what happened to them all? There was a market for virtually everything, down to old bone dust.

The worn out stones had a particular name - "grindlecoke". I know on a small scall they were used as stools and kitchen trivets. Mary Ann on occasion used them for rattening (put one inside the water wheel and let it knock itself to pieces). In the seventies my Dad buried one in the middle of the lawn as the base for a rotary clothes drier, and he used one as a step to access a higher piece of the garden.

Were they used in building? Possibly chopped up as cobblestones? Did any merchants specialise in their disposal?

I know that grindstones were passed down from trade to trade. Different grinding work required different diameter stones, so as they became too small for one job they were sold on to another grinder.

As to reuse, there are numerous discarded stones built into the walls of the Porter, and at Shepherd Wheel there's a whole flight of steps made from used grindstones.

I don't know about now, but not so long ago they were sought after as garden ornaments.

[Bayleaf]

^{I have just turned up the following "grinder's gravestone" photograph [s07761] held on the Picture Sheffield" website.}

^{http://www.picturesh...n=zoom&id=10936}

^{This grave marker can still be found at the Shepherd's Wheel and stands alongside it's more exotically carved "neighbour" which has been extensively photographed and kindly recorded above by Bayleaf.}

^{I must admit that when I originally saw this monument at the Shepherd's Wheel, I assumed that the very basic carving of two initials denoted either a stone mason's, or a quarryman's marks and that as a consequence, that it was simply, a discarded grind stone.}

^{I was rather surprised to find that it is also a grave marker recovered from St Pauls, but I am also rather pleased to learn that there are now two such examples surviving.}

The 'MK' stone rings a bell. Did you see it at your recent visit? If so, can you remember whereabouts it is please?

[Bayleaf]

What that means [1743/1744] unfortunately, is that the internment is too "young" to have been transcribed by the Yorkshire Archaeological Society - Hunter Society [internments 1560 to 1736] and too "old" to have been transcribed by the Sheffield and District FHS [internments 1813 to 1855 and onwards]. It falls within the grey zone of 1737 to 1812] and from what I understand, these internment records are only available on film-fiche.

Also unfortunately and as it so happens, through my own researches, I am presently trawling through internments covered by Sheffield, St Peter CMB; St Paul, St James, Attercliffe & Ecclesall C+B From 1747- 1774, [Film Number: 919325; Roll Number: 230 ENGL66] and I have only recently trawled through internments covered by Sheffield, Parish Church of St Peter CMB and St Paul, Attercliffe Chapelry and Ecclesall Chapelry CB From 1774 to 1790 [Film Number: 919326; Roll Number: 231 ENGL66].

As a result of this, I do not as yet have any access to any corresponding internment records for the period 1737 to 1743, otherwise I would have liked to have had a quick look for these individuals myself.

So, if anyone happens to be around the Sheffield Archives and can spare a little time, then please have a look. If not, I will certainly have a look myself, when I finally do get access, but that might not be for some months to come.

On a positive side, however there would appear to be very few internments being recorded at St Pauls during the period in question.

Typically, there are less than a dozen per month being recorded after 1747, so hopefully, some of these people should not be too difficult to track down????

At a guess and from what I think that I have deciphered, I would think that perhaps a "Michael Edwards" sometime around January / February 1743 / 1744. What does anyone else think?

Not being very involved in family research I passed your suggestions to a relative who has extensive experience of the subject and is a frequent visitor to the Archives. On a visit last week she investigated all the possible leads we offered, as well as enlisting the help of one of the archivists, but neither could find anything I'm afraid.

[Unitedite Returns]

The 'MK' stone rings a bell. Did you see it at your recent visit? If so, can you remember whereabouts it is please?

It is stored in the "annex" grinding shop, not the "main" grinding shop, which is at present, the shop where the power drive mechanisms have not been reconnected to the water wheel gearing. The original lead [as in Pb] shaft bearing that supports the power drive to the second shop still needs replacing, it seems, [or so I was told at the time of my own visit].

The MK stone is presently resting against the right hand side wall of the "annex" and it is stacked alongside the more exotically carved stone that we have already extensively discussed above.

What is nice to know, is that it now seems very probable that both stones originated from St Pauls.

[Unitedite Returns]

I'm surprised that more grindstones weren't used a grave markers - maybe the idea was thought to be disrespectful to the departed. But there must have been a lot of old grindstones to be disposed of when the grinding industry was going at full speed - what happened to them all? There was a market for virtually everything, down to old bone dust.

The worn out stones had a particular name - "grindlecoke". I know on a small scall they were used as stools and kitchen trivets. Mary Ann on occasion used them for rattening (put one inside the water wheel and let it knock itself to pieces). In the seventies my Dad buried one in the middle of the lawn as the base for a rotary clothes drier, and he used one as a step to access a higher piece of the garden.

Were they used in building? Possibly chopped up as cobblestones? Did any merchants specialise in their disposal?

I would imagine that quarried and dressed stone was as expensive then, in comparative terms, as it is today, as the costs of extraction, preparation and transport would have been quite high and so, the concept of recycling was probably as well established "then" as it is today.

Certainly, large diameter stones that were originally produced for the grinding of scythe blades would be redressed and recycled as smaller cutlery stones once they had been worn down to a certain size that made them unusable for edge tool grinding and I would have imagined that even after that, that they would still have a residual value.

If you go to the Abbeydale Industrial Hamlet, there is within one of the brick built buildings, a large, three bay "undercroft" which presumably once held wagons, or carts, or some such. The two columns that support the floor and wall over those bays have all the appearance of being made up out of stacked grind stones.

Grave markers were and still are expensive to buy, which is why they were not generally added to the graves of poorer folks, which I can tell you from experience, can be particularly frustrating when trying to find the final resting place of your distant ancestors. I would therefore imagine that to have "possessed" an engraved stone marker in the 1730's, even one made from a recycled grind stone was probably indicative of an above average level of affluence.

[Unitedite Returns]

Some more pictures of grinders grave markers made from discarded grind stones on the "Picture Sheffield" web-site.

Not from St Pauls it seems, but at least these demonstrate that such markers were not uncommon.

http://picturesheffield.com/frontend.php?keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;y01005&pos=81&action=zoom&id=48128

http://picturesheffield.com/frontend.php?keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;y01006&action=zoom&pos=82&id=48129&continueUrl=

[Bayleaf]

It is stored in the "annex" grinding shop, not the "main" grinding shop, which is at present, the shop where the power drive mechanisms have not been reconnected to the water wheel gearing. The original lead [as in Pb] shaft bearing that supports the power drive to the second shop still needs replacing, it seems, [or so I was told at the time of my own visit].

The MK stone is presently resting against the right hand side wall of the "annex" and it is stacked alongside the more exotically carved stone that we have already extensively discussed above.

What is nice to know, is that it now seems very probable that both stones originated from St Pauls.

Thanks very much for that UR

I would imagine that quarried and dressed stone was as expensive then, in comparative terms, as it is today, as the costs of extraction, preparation and transport would have been quite high and so, the concept of recycling was probably as well established "then" as it is today.

I can give some figures from late 1961; a self-employed grinder would rent a trough for £2.50 to £3.00 per week. Table knife grinders used a stone approximately 4ft to 4ft 6in in diameter and 9 inches wide. The surface velocity of the stone would be in the order of 2,500 to 4,500 ft per minute.As a guide, a 41in diameter and 7in wide stone was £76-£80, which the grinder would pay for at £2 per week. The useful life of a stone would be about 28 weeks for a table knife grinder, by which time the stone would be down to 21in in diameter. It would then be sold to a pocket knife grinder who will use it down to about 15in.

(Info from a lovely little booklet I picked up on eBay recently, "A Sheffield Heritage. An Anthology of photographs and words of the Cutlery Craftsmen" , by C.A.Turner, published by the Division of Continuing Education at Sheffield University.)

However, by that time I guess we're talking about manufactured composition grindstones rather than quarried ones, though the sizes would be the same.