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Guest carlie167

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Another little brook that I've remembered is the Shirtcliff Brook which starts up near Handsworth Top and flows below the Stradbroke Estate by the side of the modern A57 Mosborough Expressway.

A tributary of this brook ran down a steep sided ravine through the Stradbroke Estate. It was where the flat open space is just to the south of Ravenscroft Road.

As a kid I sledged down this ravine with my step-cousin who lived on the estate. In the mid/late 10950's it was placed in a concrete culvert with brick and concrete man-hole drop shafts towering like chimneys up to the eventual ground level.

Part of the spoil used to level the ravine came from the works taking place to re-order the size of the cathedral forecourt and graveyard at the time.

There was a big Hoo-Har when the boys at Brook School started collecting and swopping various skulls and thigh bones as I've mentioned elsewhere on this forum. I remember it made the front page of the Star.

I also remember playing in another little valley off Normanton Hill which also had a small stream which was being culverted at about the same time. I believe this might have been part of the Shire Brook.

The Google Streetview shows the filled in ravine.

HD

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The Shire Brook on the first OS map is listed as being Ochre Dike. A common name for streams and named after the orange colour of the ground it passes over. The orange is a natural pollution caused by the presence of Iron in the ground and is actual "rust". In some places it could be caused by the tipping of slagg from old mine workings. Such as in the Carr Brook near the Springwood pub, slagg from the Woodthorpe colliery. The Shire Brook had been a boundary for ages, before that OS map. In fact the OS map doesn't show the Derbyshire side of it. Intake and Gleadless were a part of Handsworth, which had it's own council, till the 1921 extension act. So the Shire was the boundary between Handsworth and Derbyshire till 1921, when it became the boundary between Sheffield and Derbyshire.

Another stream runs down from Intake to the Shire Brook running under Hollybank Road. I've not seen the name of that one. It seems to be another of the run off streams from Elm Tree Hill that I mentioned on the Jervis Lum thread.

The Shirtcliff Brook ran via Beaver Hill Wood and shows that a long time ago dams were built by Beavers to block it up!

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Anyone know what purpose the wall that runs down the far side of the weir would serve,

It resembles a bywash to me ?

attachicon.giflittle london_e.jpg

Looking at the aerial photo the water appears to be moving down the "bywash" in a series of small waterfalls.

Could it be a fish ladder to enable spawning fish to get upstream ?

Similar perhaps to the one that's just been built by the Meadowhall weir.

HD

I posted a couple of photos of the River Sheaf at Duchess Road in post #13 of this topic,

what was not clearly visible in that photo is the same sort of by-wash on the Duchess Rd. weir, also seen on the Little London weir, as discussed above.

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Guest Adam Broadhead

Some "lost rivers of Sheffield" challenges for anyone that can shed some light or verify these in the Carter Knowle and Bannerdale areas of Sheffield.

1. Historic maps indicated a stream down Bannerdale Road to the Sheaf, with springs rising below Banner Cross Hall forming one headwater (modern OS maps mark a trickle through back gardens here), and a pond/small reservoir off Wyatt Avenue forming the other headwater. Both met off Bannerdale Road just at Needham Way. It continued downstream to the Sheaf, but now flows within the sewer along with wastewater, and apparently gets intercepted to the sewage works miles downstream at Meadowhall.

- Any info or local memories to verify or support or add to that?

2. Another apparently rises just below the A625 between Dunkeld Road and Carterknowle Road, following the curved land boundaries here. Historic maps and local authority drainage records chart a surface water stream now culverted following the property boundary lines downstream, with an actual spring between Springfield Avenue and Carterknowle Road, thence passing over the northern edge of the fields, behind Holt House School, where another historic spring joined it from behind present day Fossdale Road, and the culvert reaching the Sheaf via dog-leg along Abbeydale Road and Crummock Road.

- Any info or local memories to verify or support or add to that?

3. The stream under Hastings Road (to the east of Springfield Road), making its way to the Sheaf after crossing Abbeydale Road, as shown in council drainage records etc. I found no historic maps showing a watercourse per se, but they show a spring off Springfield Road by Helston Rise. Modern maps indicate "issues" (i.e. outflow of a piped stream or spring) in the wooded bit between the school and the part of Hastings Road to the west of Springfield Road. Historic maps suggest stream routes through this bit towards Grove Road from Dewar Avenue, with a spring off Kingsley Park Grove, and another possible stream segment between Springfield Road and Stowe Avenue.

- Any info or local memories to verify or support or add to that?

I have plenty more mystery streams seeking verification or further information all across Sheffield, such as those that once flowed down Upperthorpe, Netherthorpe, etc, serving the mental hospital and Barracks in the Victorian period.

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The stream path I have to the west beginning in the allotments at the apex of St Anthony Road and Bolehill Lane certainly is correct,

Being pedantic can I point out that Bolehill Lane actually finishes at the top of the footpath leading down over the site of St. Anthony's Well.

St. Anthony Road runs from this point up to the apex at the hair pin bend and then back on itself right down to Tinker Lane. The houses from the gennel onwards all have St. Anthony Road addresses and have had since the nineteen fifties.

Virtually all maps are incorrect in this respect including Google and Bing. The deeds to our old house near the apex show that Bole Hill Lane was originally planned to continue to the apex but St. Anthony Road would stop just short of joining it. In the event it was possible to join the two roads although the bend has a very steep and strange camber. When it was eventually joined up, the junction was moved back to the top of the gennel.

HD

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On 15/03/2011 at 19:58, History dude said:

Thought you might like to see where the Car Brook joins the Don.

Car Brook.BMP

I was watching a video of the five weirs walk and stopped the video at Brightside Weir and the notice board that tells you about it. It mentions the Car Brook entering at this point. It comes in on the side of the weir itself from a concrete pipe tunnel and arch. Seen on the picture below.  Then there's a fish leap next to it and then the weir itself. So the above picture is not the Car Brook entering the Don. But must be another stream or brook entering it.

image.png.847a3e157e01933de6f85d1f4655161a.png

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7 hours ago, History dude said:

I was watching a video of the five weirs walk and stopped the video at Brightside Weir and the notice board that tells you about it. It mentions the Car Brook entering at this point. It comes in on the side of the weir itself from a concrete pipe tunnel and arch. Seen on the picture below.  Then there's a fish leap next to it and then the weir itself. So the above picture is not the Car Brook entering the Don. But must be another stream or brook entering it.

image.png.847a3e157e01933de6f85d1f4655161a.png

The Car Brook as far as I’m aware started it’s route down to Brightside from somewhere around the Manor Top area, as it ran at the rear of St Theresa’s school and down through the Bowden Homestead Woods, sadly it was covered over at the back of the school and grassed over, absolutely criminal act, it was a haven for wildlife and it could be anywhere in the world through childrens imagination.

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You are quite right. It started on the boggy area between the Manor Estate and the playing fields next to the Woodthorpe estate. With the construction of the new housing, which used the draining system that allows rain water from the roads to collect in ponds, the area was extensively remodelled. To construct the ponds and the plan was to open up the stream again and plant trees etc around it.

As you can see from the aerial picture from 2019 they really dug up the whole area.  The brook does emerge again near the former Springwood Hotel, but runs into ironstone deposits making the ground orange.  I don't know if the ponds were constructed or the stream opened up, as since the pandemic I haven't been able to go near the place.  The Sheffield Wildlife Trust has a lot to do with the area these days, or at least the Springwood and Bowden sections and you can download an information leaflet about the area from the site.

Incidentally the brook takes its name from the former field were it stood, as you can see it on the names of the fields on the old Woodthorpe Estate (connected to the Hall) map.  Some Norseman stood on the site and said in their language that this is boggy - or a "carr" to him and it stuck!

  1123152592_2019ManorEstate1.thumb.jpg.fb4ea21466a50a9330ac39b4d2e5f8bc.jpg

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2 minutes ago, History dude said:

You are quite right. It started on the boggy area between the Manor Estate and the playing fields next to the Woodthorpe estate. With the construction of the new housing, which used the draining system that allows rain water from the roads to collect in ponds, the area was extensively remodelled. To construct the ponds and the plan was to open up the stream again and plant trees etc around it.

As you can see from the aerial picture from 2019 they really dug up the whole area.  The brook does emerge again near the former Springwood Hotel, but runs into ironstone deposits making the ground orange.  I don't know if the ponds were constructed of the stream opened up as since the pandemic I haven't been able to near the place.  The Sheffield Wildlife Trust has a lot to do with the area these days, or at least the Springwood and Bowden sections and you can download an information leaflet about the area from the site.

Incidentally the brook takes it's name from the former field were it stood, as you can see it on the names of the fields on the old Woodthorpe Estate (connected to the Hall).  Some Norseman stood on the site as said in their language that this is boggy - or a "carr" to him.

  1123152592_2019ManorEstate1.thumb.jpg.fb4ea21466a50a9330ac39b4d2e5f8bc.jpg

It ran past my old school, St Theresa’s well before the playing fields, it came from up past Pit Lane towards Arbourthorne.

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Your getting confused geographical. The playing fields of Woodthorpe ravine are what most people call Pit lane. This second photo shows the area in question. The green bushy area to the side of the Y shaped path is the bog in-question. At the Junction of the Y shaped path was where my house stood (387 Queen Mary Road). I watched the council's effort to get rid of the stream completely, but the failed and the spring water could be seen bubbling up to the surface long after the council had done. The playing fields themselves fronting on to Kilvington were used by Prince Edward School for football pitches.

 

2019 Queen Mary Road.jpg

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Bing's images are more up to date than Google, which are many years out of date. It seems they did build the ponds for the draining. I don't know why the dug up the playing fields fronting on to Woodthorpe as if you look at these images it looks like they just grass them over.  I can't tell if the did open up the streams from the images. But they put some odd shaped structures there. If anyone lives close to the area I would love to see some pictures of it.

The Prince Edward school extension eat into the area.  And large sections of the former Boot House development have been built on. With the exception of an area just to the side of Prince Edward on the other side of Queen Mary Road. But this was a very steep area and many of the old houses had long flights of steps going down from the road. So that might have put a stop to putting the houses back.  I have added the 1927 photo which is the nearest you can get in comparison to the modern ones. Some of the old road names have been kept, but a few new ones introduced. No idea why one was named "Tickhill".

 

2022-01-17 Aerial View Woodthorpe Ravine.jpg

Aerial View - Bing Maps Woodthorpe Ravine Car Brook source.jpg

EPW018975 Manor 1927.jpg

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6 hours ago, History dude said:

Bing's images are more up to date than Google, which are many years out of date. It seems they did build the ponds for the draining. I don't know why the dug up the playing fields fronting on to Woodthorpe as if you look at these images it looks like they just grass them over.  I can't tell if the did open up the streams from the images. But they put some odd shaped structures there. If anyone lives close to the area I would love to see some pictures of it.

The Prince Edward school extension eat into the area.  And large sections of the former Boot House development have been built on. With the exception of an area just to the side of Prince Edward on the other side of Queen Mary Road. But this was a very steep area and many of the old houses had long flights of steps going down from the road. So that might have put a stop to putting the houses back.  I have added the 1927 photo which is the nearest you can get in comparison to the modern ones. Some of the old road names have been kept, but a few new ones introduced. No idea why one was named "Tickhill".

 

2022-01-17 Aerial View Woodthorpe Ravine.jpg

Aerial View - Bing Maps Woodthorpe Ravine Car Brook source.jpg

EPW018975 Manor 1927.jpg

In the late forties and fifties the area that you say I’m “ confused” about was always Pit Lane, the playing fields were years in the future and the Brook did start well before Pit Lane, confused ? that’s an old persons state.

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Only the road down to the pit (still to be seen on the 1927 photo) was the Pit Lane. The rest of it belong to Woodthorpe Estate - That of the Hall land, not the modern estate, which wasn't started till the middle 1930's. Even the mine itself at one time started with the Woodthorpe Hall owner. The lane itself was cobblestones and part of it was just covered up when the grassed over area was created. Presumably with the extensive clearing of the land shown in the old Google images they might have dug the cobbles up. One of the images does shows that they attacked the site of the mine itself extensively. And the dark muck shows plenty of coal visible on much of the area. 

As for the brook itself, I can say that the spring that feeds the stream bubbles up to the surface at the rough patch shown in picture were the curved path is. That would have been at the point of the large pond on the 1927 image. That pond was created by the mine company themselves. That area on the oldest maps was known as the Car Field and so the brook takes it name from that.  Of course it's not easy to trace the actual source of the water. Where it first comes up. But there were at least one pond on the land where the Army camp is based. However I can't determine if these were the result of mine workings or spring water coming out. The 1855 map shows shafts on the site. All pits suffer from water getting in them, which has to be pumped out. 

The "Elm Tree Hill" is the source of at least three brooks. The Car Brook and Kirk Bridge Dike, that flows via Deep Pit. Also the one that flows down by Holybank Avenue at Intake. I don't know if the water is from some giant underground river working it's way to the surface and splitting into sections. Or just several springs coming up at this point.    

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8 minutes ago, History dude said:

Only the road down to the pit (still to be seen on the 1927 photo) was the Pit Lane. The rest of it belong to Woodthorpe Estate - That of the Hall land, not the modern estate, which wasn't started till the middle 1930's. Even the mine itself at one time started with the Woodthorpe Hall owner. The lane itself was cobblestones and part of it was just covered up when the grassed over area was created. Presumably with the extensive clearing of the land shown in the old Google images they might have dug the cobbles up. One of the images does shows that they attacked the site of the mine itself extensively. And the dark muck shows plenty of coal visible on much of the area. 

As for the brook itself, I can say that the spring that feeds the stream bubbles up to the surface at the rough patch shown in picture were the curved path is. That would have been at the point of the large pond on the 1927 image. That pond was created by the mine company themselves. That area on the oldest maps was known as the Car Field and so the brook takes it name from that.  Of course it's not easy to trace the actual source of the water. Where it first comes up. But there were at least one pond on the land where the Army camp is based. However I can't determine if these were the result of mine workings or spring water coming out. The 1855 map shows shafts on the site. All pits suffer from water getting in them, which has to be pumped out. 

The "Elm Tree Hill" is the source of at least three brooks. The Car Brook and Kirk Bridge Dike, that flows via Deep Pit. Also the one that flows down by Holybank Avenue at Intake. I don't know if the water is from some giant underground river working it's way to the surface and splitting into sections. Or just several springs coming up at this point.    

I and my mates called the pond Pit Pond, and Pit Lane was just that, a narrow or wide footpath, the pit air shaft or the mine shaft was surrounded by a fence that was made up of many old doors , on the Woodthorpe side was the new Woodthorpe estate, but the Car Brook ravine was a joy despite the unknown true source of the Brook.

This has been such a brilliant post.

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Stood at Brightside Weir a few times and wondered what that pipe was, now I know. Remember having to walk to work the morning after 2007 flood all that area was still flooded including the Council property. Sheffield Road where the water had receded wasn't very pleasant. That day/night even the Car Brook overflow pipe wouldn't have been able to cope with the amount of rain we had and probably backed up with the force of water not able to flow freely into the Don. The river was so high it over topped the wall. I wouldn't fancy being down there for 5 minutes never mind 5 hours, brave lad. 

https://www.picturesheffield.com/frontend.php?keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;v03503&pos=14&action=zoom&id=44756

Photo showing 2 days after the Flood, the force of water damaged the weir. 

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The Stream that runs from Arbourthorne Pond through Norfolk Park and Enters the River Sheaf before the Granville Square I think this is Called Jevis Lumb?

I think that there is another Underground Stream coming from Myrtle Springs going under Black Bank Wood under Heeley Bank Sports Ground, Under St Elizabeth Close where I live, under Heeley Bank Road, under Olive Grove Road Jenile there is a manhole opposite and I can always hear the sound of Running Water all the time it must go under Olive Grove Works, Under Railway, Under Queens Road, into the River Sheaf.

 

 

 

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On 06/11/2022 at 18:00, SteveHB said:

 

I am sure that the running water pictured going into the Carbrook is Kirkbridge Dike.

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According to the first OS map Kirk Bridge Dike entered the Don at just past the Attercliffe cemetery and that would be around where Newhall Road bridge over the Don is today.  So it's unlikely it was diverted to join up there.

I noticed this on Google maps of photos of the cemetery. The two parallel dark walls might indicate where the stream comes out from under the building with the grey roof. 

Attercliffe Cemetery - Google Maps part.jpg

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Also looking at the Google view the Five Weirs walk runs on the opposite bank to the Dike's presumed entrance to the Don. So you should see it from the path just after Newhall Road Bridge. 

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On 13/07/2013 at 17:57, History dude said:

You really should learn to spell SteveHB lol

 

"Pippo" is that your nickname? ;-)

After ten years, the answer is ....

pip 2006.jpg

This woz pippo 🙂

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13 minutes ago, SteveHB said:

After ten years, the answer is ....

pip 2006.jpg

This woz pippo 🙂

post-188-0-05591600-1373109930_thumb.jpg.7d79e68b090b68560e68bb6960ad817c.jpg

Certainly was a clever Pippo, must be safe to expose the misdemeanors now. 😂😂🤣🤣

 

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