Sheffields Rivers

[DaveH]

As you might recall Bayleaf I have a big problem with Sheffield people calling the Sheffield Manor a "prison" for Mary Queen of Scots That's more damaging to both the Manor and Queen Elizabeth (the person who had her place there) than calling a brook a river.

The real problem with Sheffield Manor is that people, even very local Sheffield people, who insist on refering to it as Manor CASTLE rather than Manor LODGE.

[History dude]

The real problem with Sheffield Manor is that people, even very local Sheffield people, who insist on refering to it as Manor CASTLE rather than Manor LODGE.

Actually BOTH are incorrect! It is as you said first "Sheffield Manor". You can of course understand both terms, as the "castle" is clearly associated with the Turret House and the struture around it's roof. While the "Lodge" is connected with the hunting park that was around it once. However in recent times with the constrution of the Manor estate in the 1920's, calling it Sheffield Manor has confused people. Education of kids before the 1980's has also contributed to both the name problem and prison story (especially in reference to the Turret House housing Mary) as people generally thought it was a lot less grand than what it was. Anyone who's been a guide on the site well tell you how many people have come back to the site after some school trip in 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's with the story of Mary being a prisoner in the Turret House, when of course she perhaps never went inside, having her own suite of rooms in the more grand house, all revealed after the 'digs' had done in the 1980's.

I don't remember if this has been said in this thread, but the Sheaf Bridge was built with the sole purpose in mind of connecting the Town, or more rightly to say the Castle, with Sheffield Manor. That is why of course it was maintained by the Lord of the Manor. If you think about the bridge must have been built first, before the Manor, so they could transport materials to the Manor site to build it.

[DaveH]

Actually BOTH are incorrect! It is as you said first "Sheffield Manor". You can of course understand both terms, as the "castle" is clearly associated with the Turret House and the struture around it's roof. While the "Lodge" is connected with the hunting park that was around it once. However in recent times with the constrution of the Manor estate in the 1920's, calling it Sheffield Manor has confused people. Education of kids before the 1980's has also contributed to both the name problem and prison story (especially in reference to the Turret House housing Mary) as people generally thought it was a lot less grand than what it was. Anyone who's been a guide on the site well tell you how many people have come back to the site after some school trip in 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's with the story of Mary being a prisoner in the Turret House, when of course she perhaps never went inside, having her own suite of rooms in the more grand house, all revealed after the 'digs' had done in the 1980's.

I don't remember if this has been said in this thread, but the Sheaf Bridge was built with the sole purpose in mind of connecting the Town, or more rightly to say the Castle, with Sheffield Manor. That is why of course it was maintained by the Lord of the Manor. If you think about the bridge must have been built first, before the Manor, so they could transport materials to the Manor site to build it.

A castle is defined as a fortified, defensive structure to protect from and ward off enemy attacks.

A lodge is defined as a house or retreat often near the entrance to a park or hunting grounds.

(both from wikipedia)

So on that basis the Manor is more of a lodge than a castle.

Has it ever been used as an armoured fortified defence against attack?

[Bayleaf]

I don't remember if this has been said in this thread, but the Sheaf Bridge was built with the sole purpose in mind of connecting the Town, or more rightly to say the Castle, with Sheffield Manor. That is why of course it was maintained by the Lord of the Manor. If you think about the bridge must have been built first, before the Manor, so they could transport materials to the Manor site to build it.

Wouldn't that depend on where the materials were sourced? Has any work been done on identifying where the materials were quarried?

[Guest Martin-Bacon]

Having lived in reasonable proximity to the Porter for around forty years I would say that locally it is usually referred to as the River Porter, and rarely if ever the Porter Brook. In actual fact it is most frequently referred to simply as 'The Porter'.

Thanks for your contribution, Bayleaf. You have raised quite a few issues. I shall try and address them as briefly as possible.

I too have lived in reasonable proximity to the Porter, but only for a couple of decades. I would say that locally it is usually referred to as the Porter Brook or The Porter. People do sometimes call it the River Porter. They are just wrong, and have every right to be wrong, going against the official designation of the brook, as shown on every map I have seen. I don't believe that repeating this error in posts to this forum is helpful though. The middle reaches of the valley is dotted with locations taking their name from the Porter Brook, an acknowledgement of the real name of the feature. I also find it strange that Sheffield Local Studies Library frequently call the Porter Brook the River Porter, when the parent body, the local authority call it the Porter Brook, as does the development agency, Yorkshire Forward.

I see what you mean about the sources (no pun intended). The two main sources are the Ordnance Survey, a non-ministerial government department and local government. I understand that in the past G. H. B. Ward successfully campaigned for the Ordnance Survey to amend local place names seen on their maps. Did the Porter Brook escape his attention, or was he satisfied with their publications showing it as the Porter Brook throughout its length?

I would add the South Yorkshire Archaeology Service (SYAS), supported by English Heritage to the bodies which use the name Porter Brook. See http://www.sytimesca...s/sheffield/S08 and http://www.imagesofe...pid=1&id=456203

The Architects Journal also mentions the opening up of the long forgotten Porter Brook to rejuvenate an historic quarter of central Sheffield. This can only refer to the Porter Brook way downstream of Carr Bridge. Guinness Northern Counties Ltd (formerly Northern Counties Housing Association) also use the term Porter Brook when referring to their property in the area.

I am not sure what you mean by, 'There are a number of documentary references referring to the Porter,' going on to say, 'Not all use the actual name 'River Porter'. I don't see this as documentary evidence that the Porter Brook can, accurately be called the River Porter downstream of Carr Bridge.

As for Harrison's survey he calls the watercourse the Porter Water, not the River Porter, if I understand your quote. Addy also uses Harrison's term, as well as calling it 'a rivulet in Sheffield parish.' (A glossary of words used in the neighbourhood of Sheffield, including a selection of local names, and some notices of folklore, games and customs' - see http://www.archive.o...ordsu00addyuoft )

I suspect that Mary Walton uses the words 'river' and 'stream' in the same way that someone living on Fubar Close might call it a street or a road in everyday conversation. Anyone reading the Sheffield History Forum or the Sheffield Forum will see this type of thing frequently. How many times is present day Sheffield called a town? By calling the Porter Brook both a river and a stream isn't she just taking advantage of the richness of the English language rather than providing the definition of a noun phrase?

Peter Harvey's book offers no clarification at all as he concludes that the street names are derived from the River Porter. Does this include the Porter Brook View? I would draw the conclusion that such a name could only be derived from the Porter Brook and would then draw the same conclusion for Porter Lane and Porter Terrace. The recently converted Wards Brewery also bears the name Porter Brook House and the Porter Brook public house on Ecclesall Road takes its name from that Brook. When anyone agrees to meet in the Porter Brook aren’t they indirectly acknowledging the real name of the watercourse? If so, then I would suggest that the name Porter Brook is used far more frequently than Porter River.

So Chris Keeling in his Photographic Journey down Ecclesall Road refers to "Woofindin Alms Houses...with the River Porter running through the grounds." I would ask Chris Keeling to cite his sources. Does he have a map showing the watercourse named the River Porter at this location? I would ask Ball, Crossley and Flavell the same question.

Your comments about the prefixing of names set me thinking. The Porter Brook could just be a local exception, but perhaps not. I have seen the Mayfield Brook being called the Mayfield on the Sheffield Forum on their http://www.sheffield...hp/t-69757.html webpage. An alternative explanation could be found in your comments about Harrison's survey and the use of the name Porter Water. Don't people sometimes refer to Coniston Water as Coniston? The same might have been true of the Porter Water, with the suffix being dropped at sometime in the past. Those unfamiliar with the older name of the Porter Brook, on hearing the name Porter could have assumed that it was the prefix or suffix 'River' that had been dropped and then reconstructed the Porter Brook as the River Porter. Both our comments on this are just speculation though. The frequently quoted claim made prior to the inclusion of parts of the West Riding Council, that Sheffield had five rivers, might also have contributed to the misconception that 'The Porter' was a River with a capital R. In the context of the aphorism I think we can take this to mean five watercourses able to provide a head sufficient to drive a wheel. Now that Sheffield extends beyond Deepcar it does have five Rivers, including the River Porter, aka Little Don.

You suggest that, 'Since the Porter, be it brook or river, has no other name, perhaps it should be given precedence over the other Porter, which does have an alternative name'. Do as Ward did, then, and challenge the OS, or accept the potential confusion of going against the well documented official name. I would try to avoid such confusion. It would also appear that the Porter Brook also has an alternative name, the Porter Water. To avoid confusion why not just use what you call the official name? Does giving 'precedence', even if only within the Sheffield History Forums resolve the potential for confusion? The Porter Brook will still be called the Porter Brook on past and present maps for anyone to inspect, and in local authority records. The NHS Porterbrook Clinic, Porter Brook Antiques, Porter Brook

Medical Centre, Porter Brook View, Porter Brook House, Porter Brook Dental Centre, Porter Brook Conservation Area, the Porter Brook Parkway and the public house, The Porter Brook would still bear those names. Do any locations in the Porter Valley include the name Porter with the suffix or prefix River?

As for the number of wheels powered by the Porter Brook when compared to the River Porter I can't give you a number. I don't intend to follow this up, but it might have something to do with the rate of fall in elevation of the Porter Brook, providing more potential energy along a short length of the watercourse. It could be the result of the interplay of population density due to the proximity of Sheffield Castle, local skills, the amount of energy available, the attraction to chapmen of a comparatively dense population, and the reputation of Sheffield cutlers. Historically the Little Don or River Porter was beyond the 'five miles out' area under the control of the Company of Cutlers. If cutlery was produced on the Little Don it would not have the same reputation for quality as Sheffield cutlery, making it a less attractive place to site a grinding wheel. In any event I don't think the number of wheels on either watercourse tells us anything about the correct name of the Porter Brook and River Porter.

I still think if the Porter Brook is referred to as the River Porter, or even called 'The Porter', without qualification then confusion will be the result, which was the point I made on 25 September. The fact that it is sometimes called a stream, a brook, a water, a rivulet, and a river say a lot about the flexibility of the English language, but tell us nothing about the name of the watercourse.

The only source for the idea of a name change near Carr Bridge that I can find is a comment on the Sheffield Forum (see the link above relating to the Mayfield), since modified and now presented as speculation by the same author on Sheffield Forum at the http://www.sheffield...ad.php?t=679848 page. It reads, 'Perhaps it's the Porter Brook until it's joined by the May Brook at Carr Bridge, and it then becomes the River Porter?'

I am still not sure which document or map makes it clear when the Porter Brook is joined at Carr Bridge by the May(field) Brook it becomes known as the River Porter. Do you know of one? If so then please tell and we can all offer an opinion on its authority.

Martin.

Ps. I have just noticed that the 'Regeneration of Porter Brook in City Centre' http://www.sheffield....asp?pgid=91238 mostly uses the term 'Porter Brook' but has one instance of the term 'River Porter' about 3/4 of the way through the document. I think this can be put down to being a mistake.

[Bayleaf]

Few citizens of Sheffield will be aware of a river Porter at Deepcar.

To the vast majority of the population, the River Porter flows down the Porter Valley. In the minds of most people therefore there is no confusion. The question therefore is which is right, common usage or Ordnance Survey, and that is a matter of opinion.

The reference to Porter Water is in conjunction with Rivelin Water, Loxley Water etc. Since these are later referred to as River Rivelin, River Loxley, surely it is not unreasonable to include River Porter? As you point out, The 'Porter' at Deepcar was not part of Sheffield until 1974, so it is not unreasonable that the Porter in the Porter Valley should have been accepted by people in Sheffield as the River Porter? I am sure that within the UK there are a number of other River Porters, but none came lay claim to a uniqueness of the name? The Porter runs through the Porter Valley. I would be interested to know what watercourses termed 'Brook' give their name to the valley through which they run?

(I have to admire your dismissal of Mary Walton, a pre- eminent local historian, and the authors of the water power book, acknowledged as the authorities on their subject, for reflecting common local usage!)

Technically I accept that the OS use the name Porter Brook, and most official sources follow this convention. But I maintain that its common name, used by the vast majority of the people inSheffield, is the River Porter, and given its role in the industrial history of this city, it is right to be given the name, ranked alongside the other rivers which provided the power for the industry for which the city became renowned.It therefore warrant inclusion as one of the five rivers, the Porter at Deepcar having no such claim.

I acknowledge your assertion of the official name is correct. However, my'claim' as to the commonly used name I believe I have supported sufficiently. This is after all an open forum, which, while containing some authoritative material, exists primarily for members of the public to share their memories, discuss their interests, and share their knowledge and experience.

I think in this case we perhaps should agree to differ, as we are unlikely to iron out our differences, and to continue what is becoming a pointless argument would I think be taking things to extremes.

[SteveHB]

Do we not have Topics here on SheffieldHistory about the history of the Manor?

some members seem to be overlooking that the title of this Topic is Sheffields Rivers!

Members posts can be moved if requested.

[History dude]

Do we not have Topics here on SheffieldHistory about the history of the Manor?

some members seem to be overlooking that the title of this Topic is Sheffields Rivers!

I agree, however a lot of these questions relate to Sheffield Park, not Sheffield Manor. There's a Thread about the poem Sheffield Park, but it would be wrong to post questions about hunting lodges and the location of them in that. So I will start a thread in the "gone section" called Sheffield (Deer) Park, so we can go into depth on that! Any posts not connected with the Sheaf Bridge can be moved to that I would have thought. :)

[SteveHB]

I agree, however a lot of these questions relate to Sheffield Park, not Sheffield Manor. There's a Thread about the poem Sheffield Park, but it would be wrong to post questions about hunting lodges and the location of them in that. So I will start a thread in the "gone section" called Sheffield (Deer) Park, so we can go into depth on that! Any posts not connected with the Sheaf Bridge can be moved to that I would have thought.

Good idea History dude,

thank you.

[saw119]

Just resurrecting this thread as something new comes to light. In todays Retro in the Star there are some photographs taken during the 1991 flood of the station that show the river culverts that flow beneath the station. It should settle once and for all where the confluence of the Porter Brook and Sheaf is.

[Guest andypandy]

I've been down there and looked for myself. The Porter & Sheaf combine in a MASSIVE T junction under the station. From that point on they are 'mixed' together and the twin tunnel thing is a red herring. Due to the height of the floor in the various split tunnels, during dry weather most of the flow goes down the left hand tunnel and the others are only used when it rains heavily. Go down to the open section of the Sheaf near Ponds forge when its raining and you'll see.

Alternatively get some waders and a torch and go have a look for yourself (when its not raining) :P

[Guest Sedgie]

The Little Don river that runs through Stocksbridge to meet up with the River Don at Deepcar is also called the River Porter.

Does anyone know when and how it got its name.

Is there any connection to the "Porter Stout Ale"?

http://www.stocksbridgehs.co.uk

Sedgie

[ukelele lady]

The Little Don river that runs through Stocksbridge to meet up with the River Don at Deepcar is also called the River Porter.

Does anyone know when and how it got its name.

Is there any connection to the "Porter Stout Ale"?

http://www.stocksbridgehs.co.uk

Sedgie

Hi Sedgie, I bet you are on commision for the times you have plugged

the Stocksbridge site this week.

Seven times in seven posts. Although it's an interesting site I think most

of the members have got the message now.

But keep all the interesting stuff coming in , we are happy to receive any of

our Sheffield history on this site.

[Bayleaf]

Hi Sedgie, I bet you are on commision for the times you have plugged

the Stocksbridge site this week.

Seven times in seven posts. Although it's an interesting site I think most

of the members have got the message now.

But keep all the interesting stuff coming in , we are happy to receive any of

our Sheffield history on this site.

Hi Sedgie,

Perhaps you might like to return the compliment and add this site to the list of links on your site?

[Guest Sedgie]

Hi ukelele lady (Admin).

Point taken, but you can't blame me for trying and they were posts to different topics.

We are a newish site and need the exposure.

Link to the Sheffield History home page will be on our site by the end of the weekend.

All the best.

Sedgie

[Bayleaf]

Thanks Sedgie you're a star. And as you rightly say, your posts are always on topic, and very welcome they are!

[hilldweller]

Hi Sedgie, I bet you are on commision for the times you have plugged

the Stocksbridge site this week.

Seven times in seven posts. Although it's an interesting site I think most

of the members have got the message now.

But keep all the interesting stuff coming in , we are happy to receive any of

our Sheffield history on this site.

Just to say how much I have enjoyed reading the Stocksbridge forum. I worked there in the seventies and eighties and my mother lived there for a number of years.

It seems to me that there exist a great number of high quality photos bearing in mind the size of the village/town of Stocksbridge or should that be Stocks Bridge

HD

[ukelele lady]

Hi ukelele lady (Admin).

Point taken, but you can't blame me for trying and they were posts to different topics.

We are a newish site and need the exposure.

Link to the Sheffield History home page will be on our site by the end of the weekend.

All the best.

Sedgie

Thanks Sedgie, share and share alike eh?

[SteveHB]

 

[syrup]

Nice one Steve..

[SteveHB]

Nice one Steve..

The last image (pub) in the video is not Sheffield !

[syrup]

The last image (pub) in the video is not Sheffield !

Any ideas where ?

[SteveHB]

Any ideas where ?

Yes, it is over 50 miles away ... <_<

[dunsbyowl1867]

Thanks Steve - lovely little film - very calming nearly fell asleep at my desk!

[SteveHB]

Little London Road, the River Sheaf emerges from under the Abbey Glen laundry.

From Rydal Road bridge looking upstream, Little London Road on the L/H side.

Little London Road above the rail bridge, looking upstream.

Little London Road looking downstream, Rydal Road bridge & Abbey Glen in the background.

Little London Road near Athol Road, looking upstream towards Woodseats Road.

Looking downstream.