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Sheffields Rivers


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Guest Martin-Bacon

One place where the Porter Brook can be seen, not mentioned so far in this thread is in the Waitrose car park, just by the

recycling point near Napier Street. It can be seen below a large metal grill.

I keep seeing the Porter Brook being called the River Porter in this thread. The Porter Brook rises near Brown Edge Farm,

beyond Ringinglow. (The headwater is being culverted as anyone visiting the area will see). The River Porter, or Little Don

flows into the Don at Deepcar. Even Picture Sheffield confuse the two. See their picture number s12200 of the Porter Brook

at the junction of Cemetery Road and Ecclesall Road, but then many of the images hosted by Picture Sheffield have inaccurate

descriptions. http://www.picturesheffield.com/frontend.php?action=zoom&keywords=Ref_No_increment;MATCHES;(^| +)s12200($|

I am not sure if the above link will work. Many direct links on this site to Picture Sheffield don't work. Is there a way to guarantee a direct link to an image hosted on the Picture Sheffield site?

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Welcome to the Site |Martin-Bacon.

Good question, we've spent many, many hours (years in fact) linking to PictureSheffield only to have the "rug pulled from underneath us" recently by changes at PS, I, for one, am reluctant to spend all that time again restoring the links in case the same occurs again. Every Pub image was linked to PS, I know, I did my share. Personally, I'd prefer to remove the dead links with a message stating what happened rather than go through all that again - other Moderators are available and may have other views - few, however, have invested as much time and effort in linking to PS (especially the Pubs).

Many direct links on this site to Picture Sheffield don't work. Is there a way to guarantee a direct link to an image hosted on the Picture Sheffield site?

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Guest Martin-Bacon

What about replacing links with the Picture Sheffield image number, along with brief instuctions to use the Picture Sheffield search box?

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One place where the Porter Brook can be seen, not mentioned so far in this thread is in the Waitrose car park, just by the

recycling point near Napier Street. It can be seen below a large metal grill.

Thanks, noticed that grille when we walked down Porter Brook from Summerfield Street to the junction with the Sheaf earlier this year, but couldn't work out exactly where it was from beneath!

The River Porter, or Little Don

flows into the Don at Deepcar.

I think THIS is the Little Don.

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Guest Martin-Bacon

Take care down there T.T. I have heard some of the tunnels are the abode of a river troll, or is it that someone just saw Mozaz? lol

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Guest Martin-Bacon

Kirk Bridge Dike

Kirk Bridge Dike once ran along the side of Darnall Road and Worksop Road (Godfrey Edition OS map - Attercliffe 1903). It is now culverted on Worksop Road where it joins Darnall Road, as far as I can tell. The Darnall Road section is still visible today from the canal aqueduct. This must flow into the Don. Does anyone know the location of the confluence of these watercourses?

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I can motivate myself to spend six months scanning OS maps, five years researching Pubs and finding ancestors for people I've never heard of, I enjoy buying stuff for the site with my own hard-earned but the hardest thing of all, I find, is to motivate yourself to go back and re-do something that has been destroyed through no fault of your own. We did suffer some data loss a while back and we pitched in and re-built it - no problem at all, it was an accident, the loss of the PictureSheffield links was a major blow to SheffieldHistory.

It's a big task, and will get done one day ... probably when Ukelele Lady says she's done with updates - then I'll have to go back through each pub entry to consolidate "my" data with the A-Z.

What about replacing links with the Picture Sheffield image number, along with brief instuctions to use the Picture Sheffield search box?

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Thanks a lot for that Martin. Never appreciated the difference between Porter and Porter Brook. Will definitely check out the culverted area by Waitrose and photograph it.

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One place where the Porter Brook can be seen, not mentioned so far in this thread is in the Waitrose car park, just by the

recycling point near Napier Street. It can be seen below a large metal grill.

I keep seeing the Porter Brook being called the River Porter in this thread. The Porter Brook rises near Brown Edge Farm,

beyond Ringinglow. (The headwater is being culverted as anyone visiting the area will see). The River Porter, or Little Don

flows into the Don at Deepcar. Even Picture Sheffield confuse the two. See their picture number s12200 of the Porter Brook

at the junction of Cemetery Road and Ecclesall Road, but then many of the images hosted by Picture Sheffield have inaccurate

descriptions. http://www.picturesheffield.com/frontend.php?action=zoom&keywords=Ref_No_increment;MATCHES;(^| +)s12200($|

I am not sure if the above link will work. Many direct links on this site to Picture Sheffield don't work. Is there a way to guarantee a direct link to an image hosted on the Picture Sheffield site?

Just to add to the confusion, the Porter Brook rises as you say, but is joined at Carr Bridge by the May Brook, and from there becomes known as the River Porter. There may well be another Porter, but this is the one usually referred to by the name, supporting a series of mills as it flows to join the Sheaf by the Midland Station.

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Guest Martin-Bacon

Just to add to the confusion, the Porter Brook rises as you say, but is joined at Carr Bridge by the May Brook, and from there becomes known as the River Porter. There may well be another Porter, but this is the one usually referred to by the name, supporting a series of mills as it flows to join the Sheaf by the Midland Station.

I can't say that I have heard the water course downstream of the confluence of the May Brook and Porter Brook being called

the River Porter, and can't, so far find anything to support your claim. Calling the Porter Brook the River Porter is just going to cause confusion.

My tatty OS GB 1:25 000 Sheffield and Barnsley map (Explorer map number 278), which was revised in 2005 certainly has the

Porter Brook named as such both at Porter Clogh (SK289841) and at Whiteley Woods, near Greystones Road (SK319853). You can

find a map with a zoom function on the http://www.geograph..../gridref/sk3185 webpage. Just left click on the 1:50 000 map

to bring up the zoomable map.

The adjacent 1:25 000 Peak District, Dark Peak area (OL1 Explorer Map) also shows the water course above Underbank Reservoir

as the Porter or Little Don River. (This New Dark Peak map also shows the named Porter Brook at the above grid refs).

An undated Geographia 'Plan of Sheffield' I have, which pre-dates the constuction of the housing to the north of Deerlands

Avenue (which dates it to the 1930's I think) also shows the Porter Brook as such in Whiteley Woods, again by Greystones

Road.

The 'Sheffield Official Street Guide' produced by the Sheffield Council and published by British Publishing Co. Ltd. in June

1984 also shows the Porter Brook downstream of Hanging Water road.

The 'Premier Map of Sheffield', undated but bought new within the last year also shows the Porter Brook flowing through

Endcliffe Park.

The large scale inset map of the city 'central area' in my Sheffield A-Z (Edition 1, 1991) also shows the Porter Brook, and

names it as such where it flows behind Sylvester Gardens towards Matilda Street.

The 'Regeneration of Porter Brook in City Centre' document at

http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/your-city-council/council-meetings/archive/area-panels/broomhill-central-netheredge/agenda-7th-se

ptember-2006/regeneration-of-porter-brook also gives some information of the Porter Brook. The title of this document

certainly

Abercrombie’s Civic survey of 1924 for Sheffield City Council also refers to the watercourse as the Porter Brook along the

'Porter Brook Parkway'. See the http://www.webexpres...ting.php?id=553 webpage. Does Sheffield

History have a link to this website?

Also have a look at 'Where's the Path' at the

http://wtp2.appspot....z=17&oz=10&gt=1 webpage. This shows

the Porter Brook downstream of Carr Bridge. One caveat about 'Where's the Path'; it only serves out a limited number of

modern map tiles each day. It is best to use it early in the day or at weekends. Once it has served out the maximum number of

tiles it still shows the aerial view, but reverts to an older OS map. It's still a great toy though, despite this limitation.

The http://wtp2.appspot....z=17&oz=10&gt=1 page shows the

Porter or Little Don River where it flows from Stocksbridge to Deepcar.

I don't want to start a discusion about when a brook becomes a river but I would say that the Porter Brook, under normal flow

conditions could never seriously be called a river. Just take a look at it by Leadmill Road where it flows under the station.

Does anyone think it qualifies as river? (Collins English Dictionary: river n. large natural stream of water. Brook n. small

stream).

Do any maps or documents, other than user generated webpages call the Porter Brook the River Porter, downstream of Carr

Bridge? (I might just start a thread about the poor documenting of photographs by Picture Sheffield, and don't consider their records as being accurate).

Martin.

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Guest Martin-Bacon

Thanks a lot for that Martin. Never appreciated the difference between Porter and Porter Brook. Will definitely check out the culverted area by Waitrose and photograph it.

Not much to photograph, just a raised area of brickwork with a grill. The grill is locked. Below the grill is a ladder leading down to the brook.

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Having looked at some early maps they also state that the Porter is a "brook" right into the city center. So I would have thought unless the Council or some other body has renamed the Porter as the "River Porter". Then the Porter is still a brook. Perhaps Sheffielders don't like the idea of a a mear brook flowing inside the city and started calling it a river :P

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Having looked at some early maps they also state that the Porter is a "brook" right into the city center. So I would have thought unless the Council or some other body has renamed the Porter as the "River Porter". Then the Porter is still a brook. Perhaps Sheffielders don't like the idea of a a mear brook flowing inside the city and started calling it a river :P

Well it certenly turns the history books upside down about Sheffield being built on five rivers, dosen't it.

published 1855 :)

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Well it certenly turns the history books upside down about Sheffield being built on five rivers, dosen't it.

published 1855 :)

:o Yes I forgot about the five rivers story when I wrote that.

Now can we get shut of a hill he he

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:o Yes I forgot about the five rivers story when I wrote that.

Now can we get shut of a hill he he

Why not add a few more brooks & call them rivers he he

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The Sheffield & Rotherham Independent (Sheffield, England), Saturday, July 20, 1878;

Thanks syrup, looks like Snig Hill could have been named after the Lamprey then <_<

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Why not add a few more brooks & call them rivers he he

We've got plenty of brooks in the city, several with whole areas of the city and estates named after them.

Shirebrook

Meresbrook

Shiresriver Estate and Meresriver Estate don't sound right somehow. <_<

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Having been born and brought up in an area near to the Porter,

none of my family or the neighbours ever referred to it by the name of Porter Brook,

it was always called by the name River Porter

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Do any maps or documents, other than user generated webpages call the Porter Brook the River Porter, downstream of Carr Bridge? (I might just start a thread about the poor documenting of photographs by Picture Sheffield, and don't consider their records as being accurate). Martin.

Having lived in reasonable proximity to the Porter for around forty years I would say that locally it is usually referred to as the River Porter, and rarely if ever the Porter Brook. In actual fact it is most frequently referred to simply as 'The Porter'.

That's an impressive list of references, but it would be reasonable to assume that most of them come from the same main data source.

There are a number of documentary references referring to the Porter. Not all use the actual name 'River Porter', but they class it alongside other rivers such as the Loxley, Rivelin and the Sheaf.

Harrison's 'Survey of the Mannor of Sheffield ' in 1637 says "The River of Doune drowns the name of the other River called the Sheath, besides these two rivers are other Rivers called Porter Water, Loxley Water and Riveling Water" (p3)

Mary Walton in her book "Sheffield its Story and its Achievements" refers to "four small streams,... the Loxley, ...the Rivelin...the Porter ...the Sheaf..." (p9)

and "Sheffields little rivers, Don, Sheaf, Porter, Rivelin, Loxley. (p39)

Ball, Crossley and Flavell, Water Power on the Sheffield Rivers refers to The Porter and its tributary the Mayfield Brook... (p114) (NB Not The Porter Brook and its tributary)

"... was on the wrong side of the Porter, and hence that River..." (p117)

Peter Harvey in his street names of Sheffield lists "Porter Brook View, overlooks the River Porter... Porter Lane, Porter Terrace - from the River Porter" (p117)

Chris Keeling in his Photographic Journey down Ecclesall Road refers to "Woofindin Alms Houses...with the River Porter running through the grounds." (p52)

Granted not all these sources use the term "River Porter", but refer to the Porter in the same terms as the others. Certainly none refer to the "Porter Brook".

I don't dispute that the latter name may be used in official documents, but it is far more usual to hear it referred to as the River Porter, or most commonly as the Porter, just as people refer to the Loxley, the Rivelin, the Sheaf, the Don etc.

I would also suggest that when names are shortened in this way, it is by dropping the prefix. Where the name is the 'X' Brook, it is usually referred to by its full name, e.g, Wyming Brook, May(field) Brook, not "The Wyming" or "The Mayfield".

Since the Porter, be it brook or river, has no other name, perhaps it should be given precedence over the other Porter, which does have an alternative name.

As to size, although the River/Porter/Brook may be small, it managed at one time to power no less than 18 mills. And its namesake?

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Bayleaf all you have done there is shown how widespread the misconception is that the Porter is a river. John Harrison also would have gained his knowledge from the people who lived in Sheffield, as he came from Norfolk so would not know the area at all.

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Bayleaf all you have done there is shown how widespread the misconception is that the Porter is a river. John Harrison also would have gained his knowledge from the people who lived in Sheffield, as he came from Norfolk so would not know the area at all.

In actual fact you confirm my point. The people of Sheffield have for a long time, centuries in fact, regarded the Porter as a river, not a brook. I would contend therefore on the evidence that it is the name Porter Brook which is the misnomer, however 'official'.

Try asking anyone from Sheffield where the River Porter is, and you'd have great difficulty finding anyone who would say "Deepcar".

In a similar vein, try asking them where St Paul's Gardens are or were, and you'd get a blank look. Ask for the Peace Gardens, (named of course after an infamous local villain), and anyone would have told you. In this case authority have eventually given in and Peace Gardens is now the official name.

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I'm not convinced either way if it is a river or brook. In the long run it's not harmfull to call it a river when it really should be called a brook, simply by its size. As you might recall Bayleaf I have a big problem with Sheffield people calling the Sheffield Manor a "prison" for Mary Queen of Scots :unsure: That's more damaging to both the Manor and Queen Elizabeth (the person who had her place there) than calling a brook a river. For who does that harm?

We can all have false assuptions about things, just look at me in this thread thinking that the two rivers (or should the be river and brook?) stayed seperate under the station :mellow: There are plenty of historical blunders out there, some of which are still held to be true and do more harm than good. They are widely held to be true, even when strong evidence is there to prove them false. It could be in this case a language thing, where "river" was just used to indicate a flowing body of water. Later on the language is re-evaluated to add more meaning yet the term "river" becomes undefined as to what size it has to be. However tradition still calls the brook a river.

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I've no strong feeling on that either Dude. As you say, it comes down to semantics in the end. I was really replying to Martin's comment about my 'claim' which I took as his suggesting I couldn't support. (Is that English? Anyway I'm sure you know what I mean!)

As to MQoS, Sheffield's most famous prisoner, <_< I think we'll have to agree to differ, having pretty well exhausted the arguments! ;-)

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