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I cant remember who gave me this copy from 1891 but scroll down to the deaths of August 6/7 & 8th, I just cant imagine the pain and grief that the parents of these poor children went through.

 

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Hi tozzin, yes it's awful for anyone to lose one child let alone 3. I'm guessing their deaths must have been due

to one of the terrible infectious diseases around. I know some families were wiped out completely. So Sad!  

 

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The church was St Simons in Eyre street. Originally it was Eyre Street Chapel (Baptist built 1840). In 1857 Revd Battersby, then leading worship in a room on Duke street (renamed Matilda street), heard that the chapel was being enlarged he made an offer to buy it for the Anglicans. It was consecrated in 1866. The removed Baptists built a new chapel on Cemetery Road. As St Simons had no graveyard burials were carried out elsewhere, following a service at the church.

The family were Emmingham, not Effingham. In 1891 John Henry was a 28 year old table knife cutler, he and Clara had six children.

In 1905 John Henry was sentenced to 6 months imprisonment with hard labour. Agnes Fletcher wife of the landlord of the Spring Tavern, Boston street, had come to the Emmingham's house in the yard at the rear of the beerhouse to try calm down an argument between Clara and John Henry He hit Mrs Fletcher with a poker, blinding her in one eye.

Clara died in 1920, and John Henry in 1936.

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It seems a world away Edmund, but it’s a way of life we should never want to see again.

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We began to improve life when clean water and sanitation became more common. Poor and inadequate food slowly began to be improved in crowded towns and early measures began to be made in working conditions. 

But, arguably, it was WW1 which showed the poor state of health of many potential recruits from the working class which was the impetus to improve Public Health. 

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Here’s a photo of the font from St Simons:

The War Memorial, in the south aisle, a neat oak tablet bearing the names of ninety-six men who fell in the Great War, was erected at a cost of £30.

C4258D2C-D489-49CB-975B-969EA0192F1E.png

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On 21/07/2022 at 16:44, tozzin said:

It seems a world away Edmund, but it’s a way of life we should never want to see again.

Yes I agree. It must have been awful for couples trying to 'make ends meet', as they were being paid little, had no

health care, dirty and sometimes dangerous jobs, while trying to bring up a growing family the best way they could.

No family planning clinics, NHS or SS in those days. I can well understand their devastation and frustration turning

to anger, feeling demoralised and at their 'wits end', not able to see a way out of their situation, I guess we can all

only 'take so much', resulting in heated arguments that can get out of hand in 'the moment'. The result later usually

being a feeling of Guilt and Regret.  - We keep being told on the News about people in poverty now, using Food Banks

and applying for SS aid. But I see they seem to afford to Smoke, Drink, and have iphones!?!?  Victorian poor had no

such help or luxuries, only the goodness of other kind people, the Work House or Church hand outs. - Our 'Homeless'

all have somewhere they can go for a meal, wash and shelter if they choose to, but I read that some of the poor souls

in Victorian times, who were to weak to work, with no home, or family, were left to die on the streets!  NEVER AGAIN!!

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48 minutes ago, Heartshome said:

Yes I agree. It must have been awful for couples trying to 'make ends meet', as they were being paid little, had no

health care, dirty and sometimes dangerous jobs, while trying to bring up a growing family the best way they could.

No family planning clinics, NHS or SS in those days. I can well understand their devastation and frustration turning

to anger, feeling demoralised and at their 'wits end', not able to see a way out of their situation, I guess we can all

only 'take so much', resulting in heated arguments that can get out of hand in 'the moment'. The result later usually

being a feeling of Guilt and Regret.  - We keep being told on the News about people in poverty now, using Food Banks

and applying for SS aid. But I see they seem to afford to Smoke, Drink, and have iphones!?!?  Victorian poor had no

such help or luxuries, only the goodness of other kind people, the Work House or Church hand outs. - Our 'Homeless'

all have somewhere they can go for a meal, wash and shelter if they choose to, but I read that some of the poor souls

in Victorian times, who were to weak to work, with no home, or family, were left to die on the streets!  NEVER AGAIN!!

My sentiments exactly.

 

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We might look at those times and reflect on the poverty, but at the time there were people around saying the same things we say now about those in the poverty of today. We are reminded every Christmas of the life of Scrooge. Are there no workhouses! Or you can look at the poor by the boys of Fagin, who would steal your wallet. And the same boys that were given the same opportunity as what Oliver Twist is given by living in the rich man's house. Yes the chap had tried to reform boys before and had his money stolen and the boy rejoin Fagin's gang.  These might be the work of fiction, but they were likely based on real circumstances.

In fact today's Social Security system, is still based on the system that everyone who applies for it is "idle" and undeserving. The fact that their are foodbanks shows that the income from it is too little for many too live on.   

Quote

But I see they seem to afford to Smoke, Drink, and have iphones!

The same was said about the Victorians and every subsequent generation. Apart from the "iphones" which is new.

The present system doesn't protect people when they get into difficulties. There was joke going around at one point that one government department that was responsible for health assessment, would have found the dug up remains of Richard The Third as capable of work! 

But the simple truth is that we have not got a definition of what poverty means.  To even claim the lowest benefits you have to meet certain criteria. These are the lowest amounts to protect a person. If you don't meet these criteria, you can loose ALL your benefit, you might not even qualify for so called "emergency payments". 

The Court of Human Rights says that the money a person needs to live on to stop poverty should include something to make a decent lifestyle for that person. Not simply provide food and a home to live in.  But we all know that has never been achieved. 

But if we don't allow that kind of lifestyle that might include the money to buy none essential items, then we are no better than Mr Scrooge.  And though we can look back at Victorian times and the treatment of the poor with horror and say never again. Future generations will look back at 2022 with the same thoughts.    

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Sheffield City Archives hold the Parish registers for this church  (PR57).

Baptisms 1856-1940

Marriages 1867-1940

St. Simon was created as an ecclesiastical district in the Sheffield Parish c.1846. The church was located on Eyre Street and was formerly a Baptist Chapel. St. Simon was opened 28 Jan 1858. After further alterations in 1865, it was consecrated as a parish church in May 1866. It was damaged by enemy action in Dec. 1940 and was subsequently demolished . The parish was united with St. Mary, Bramall Lane c. 1946. St. Simon was in the Rural Deanery of Sheffield .

 

46160157-2BF7-4079-AECD-2952F4376FE1.jpeg

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22 hours ago, tozzin said:

Sheffield City Archives hold the Parish registers for this church  (PR57).

Baptisms 1856-1940

Marriages 1867-1940

St. Simon was created as an ecclesiastical district in the Sheffield Parish c.1846. The church was located on Eyre Street and was formerly a Baptist Chapel. St. Simon was opened 28 Jan 1858. After further alterations in 1865, it was consecrated as a parish church in May 1866. It was damaged by enemy action in Dec. 1940 and was subsequently demolished . The parish was united with St. Mary, Bramall Lane c. 1946. St. Simon was in the Rural Deanery of Sheffield .

 

Part of St. Simon's (top of Matilda Street) can be seen in this photograph

"Good Templars Friendly Society on an outing from Matilda Street"

 

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On 23/07/2022 at 00:08, History dude said:

We might look at those times and reflect on the poverty, but at the time there were people around saying the same things we say now about those in the poverty of today. We are reminded every Christmas of the life of Scrooge. Are there no workhouses! Or you can look at the poor by the boys of Fagin, who would steal your wallet. And the same boys that were given the same opportunity as what Oliver Twist is given by living in the rich man's house. Yes the chap had tried to reform boys before and had his money stolen and the boy rejoin Fagin's gang.  These might be the work of fiction, but they were likely based on real circumstances.

In fact today's Social Security system, is still based on the system that everyone who applies for it is "idle" and undeserving. The fact that their are foodbanks shows that the income from it is too little for many too live on.   

The same was said about the Victorians and every subsequent generation. Apart from the "iphones" which is new.

The present system doesn't protect people when they get into difficulties. There was joke going around at one point that one government department that was responsible for health assessment, would have found the dug up remains of Richard The Third as capable of work! 

But the simple truth is that we have not got a definition of what poverty means.  To even claim the lowest benefits you have to meet certain criteria. These are the lowest amounts to protect a person. If you don't meet these criteria, you can loose ALL your benefit, you might not even qualify for so called "emergency payments". 

The Court of Human Rights says that the money a person needs to live on to stop poverty should include something to make a decent lifestyle for that person. Not simply provide food and a home to live in.  But we all know that has never been achieved. 

But if we don't allow that kind of lifestyle that might include the money to buy none essential items, then we are no better than Mr Scrooge.  And though we can look back at Victorian times and the treatment of the poor with horror and say never again. Future generations will look back at 2022 with the same thoughts.    

Well said History dude! I understand your statement, no one should go hungry, not be able to wash or have clean clothes

or a safe place to sleep, if we can pay rent and utility bills to keep a home, they are basic human needs. There are genuine

good people in need, either through no fault of their own, or changes in their life circumstances. Like your 1891 family tozzin! 

BUT! I myself knew a couple who disgustingly 'Milked The System'. He, boasting to a neighbour said he'd never had to work

as he knows how to get round the DHSS etc:- He'd a different car every week, as he and a mate did them up and sold them.

New goods were regularly being delivered. They had holidays abroad. Then when it came to him going to sign on, or applying

for a claim, he'd go there and back on the bus. They lived a better life than all the working neighbours. 

They've left now, but I know from conversations with other people there are others like them still. - Some people have no shame!

Myself and many other members I'm sure, have had times in their life when they've struggled. When I was 8 my Mum apologised to me one Sunday, for only having Jam Sandwiches and tea to drink for Sunday Dinner, as she'd had to go pay the final demand electric bill on the Saturday.  -  When my daughter was little, we had to pay back all the rent allowance we'd been granted as the Council had made a mistake. So besides not getting it anymore, we had to find the money to give it back. A terrible time in our lives! My husband cycled to work, and I'd walk my daughter on an 8mile round shopping trip in the pushchair. That was when we got paid weekly.

It makes us appreciate what we have in our lives now!

 

 

 

 

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BUT! I myself knew a couple who disgustingly 'Milked The System'.

Everyone knows someone like, but most people call them Members of Parliament lol

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1 hour ago, History dude said:

Everyone knows someone like, but most people call them Members of Parliament lol

Now now, CHEEKY ! 😄ha!

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Interesting posts; I think we can all agree times were very hard in years gone by. I have posted below a section of my families history going back to the 1730s Notice the number of times Charles Wright was married and how many children he (they) lost very sad.

 

2. CHARLES2 WRIGHT (WILLIAM1) was born Abt. 1730, and died 18 May 1800 in Wollaston, Northampton. He married (1) MERCY WRIGHT. She died 08 Nov 1754 in Wollaston, Northampton. He married (2) ELIZABETH STRATTON 12 Oct 1755 in Wollaston, Northamptonshire. She died 16 Nov 1756 in Wollaston, Northampton. He married (3) SARAH BARKER 05 Jan 1757 in Wollaston, Northamptonshire. She was born in Rushden, and died 30 Jan 1798 in Wollaston, Northampton. 

Children of CHARLES WRIGHT and SARAH BARKER are: 

 

JOHN3 WRIGHT, b. 1762, Wollaston, Northampton; d. 01 Dec 1763, Wollaston, Northampton.

SARAH WRIGHT, b. 1763, Wollaston, Northampton; d. 23 Apr 1764, Wollaston, Northampton.

MARY WRIGHT, b. 1765, Wollaston, Northampton; d. 21 Apr 1766, Wollaston, Northampton.

HANNAH WRIGHT, b. 1757, Wollaston, Northampton.  D. 1758

CHARLES WRIGHT, b. 1760, Wollaston, Northampton.
JOHN WRIGHT, b. 1764, Wollaston, Northampton; d. 08 May 1765, Wollaston, Northampton. SARAH WRIGHT, b. 1768, Wollaston, Northampton.
WILLIAM WRIGHT, b. 1758, Wollaston, Northampton; d. 10 Aug 1838, Wollaston, Northampton. 

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On 21/07/2022 at 13:47, tozzin said:

I cant remember who gave me this copy from 1891 but scroll down to the deaths of August 6/7 & 8th, I just cant imagine the pain and grief that the parents of these poor children went through.

 

Copy.thumb.png.5adbed12440d01bf5bbdd91719d96779.png

Incredibly sad reading. On a personal note, it was lovely to see Elijah Wathall listed among the baptisms, he was the son of my 2x great grand-uncle! 

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4 minutes ago, LW SWFC said:

Incredibly sad reading. On a personal note, it was lovely to see Elijah Wathall listed among the baptisms, he was the son of my 2x great grand-uncle! 

I used to work with a William “ Bill “ Wathall at George Butlers, I can remember Bill telling me he was born in what was a debtors prison that stood roughly where the tax office stood close to where Wickes is now on Moore Street, he was a very good cutler and could carve faces on the root end of stag horn.

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2 minutes ago, tozzin said:

I used to work with a William “ Bill “ Wathall at George Butlers, I can remember Bill telling me he was born in what was a debtors prison that stood roughly where the tax office stood close to where Wickes is now on Moore Street, he was a very good cutler and could carve faces on the root end of stag horn.

Brilliant to hear your recollection of Bill. Could you hazard a guess at his age at the time? I'm not sure *which* Bill it will be (a very common name on that side of the family!) but many of them lived on Bishop Street, and were cutlers, so that matches perfectly. The Wathalls married into the Cantrell family, who were established makers in Sheffield.

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14 minutes ago, LW SWFC said:

Brilliant to hear your recollection of Bill. Could you hazard a guess at his age at the time? I'm not sure *which* Bill it will be (a very common name on that side of the family!) but many of them lived on Bishop Street, and were cutlers, so that matches perfectly. The Wathalls married into the Cantrell family, who were established makers in Sheffield.

He looked to be in his sixties when I knew him in the eighties, he had a shop on Egerton Lane with another bloke called Reg, they worked a couple of evenings a week plus all day Saturday, Reg did move into new premises in the Edmund Road Drill Hall, I don’t know if Bill relocated there with him,  between them they made sheath knives, Bowie knives and commando knives. I seem to remember that Bill had a grandson who was always a handful, I also seem to remember that Bill used to frequent the Tea Garden pub, I don’t know what happened to him wether he retired , went full time for himself or was made redundant, I didn’t even get chance to say goodbye or wish him good luck, one day he was there and the next he was gone.

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56 minutes ago, tozzin said:

He looked to be in his sixties when I knew him in the eighties, he had a shop on Egerton Lane with another bloke called Reg, they worked a couple of evenings a week plus all day Saturday, Reg did move into new premises in the Edmund Road Drill Hall, I don’t know if Bill relocated there with him,  between them they made sheath knives, Bowie knives and commando knives. I seem to remember that Bill had a grandson who was always a handful, I also seem to remember that Bill used to frequent the Tea Garden pub, I don’t know what happened to him wether he retired , went full time for himself or was made redundant, I didn’t even get chance to say goodbye or wish him good luck, one day he was there and the next he was gone.

Wow, lots of amazing info there mate, thank you. There are two in my tree that could match the age, but it sounds like it *could* be my great-great-uncle. In either case, he was a relative.

Great-uncle Bill was born at Well Lane, a bit further away, but moved to Bishop Street as an infant, which would match the area to a tee. There were nine siblings, and after the death of their father, most ended up at Fulwood Cottage Homes. 

Interestingly, the family did have an association with Bowie knives, through ancestors who worked at Washington Works for many years. I'll do some digging and see if I can find out what happened to Bill. In the meantime, thank you so much for this!!

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9 hours ago, LW SWFC said:

Wow, lots of amazing info there mate, thank you. There are two in my tree that could match the age, but it sounds like it *could* be my great-great-uncle. In either case, he was a relative.

Great-uncle Bill was born at Well Lane, a bit further away, but moved to Bishop Street as an infant, which would match the area to a tee. There were nine siblings, and after the death of their father, most ended up at Fulwood Cottage Homes. 

Interestingly, the family did have an association with Bowie knives, through ancestors who worked at Washington Works for many years. I'll do some digging and see if I can find out what happened to Bill. In the meantime, thank you so much for this!!

This is the “ Reg “ that was Bills partner, Reg built up a reputation with his knives but I suspect it was Bill that taught him the ropes, Reg Coopers full time job when he worked on Egerton  Lane was in some kind of foundry as I remember the cast aluminium handles that Bill and Reg used for commando knives were made at the place where Reg worked. If Reg is still alive he must be well into his eighties by now.

 

The photo shows Reg meeting Sylvester Stallone, Reg was much slimmer when  I knew him.
 

NOTICE: Reg Cooper has decided to retire so therefore no bowie knives will be available from him.

 

Reg Cooper is a Bowie Knife maker from Sheffield. Aged in his 80's, he has been making Bowie knives for as long as he cares to remember.

The manufacture of Bowie Knives is now performed by a dwindling number of highly-specialised craftsmen in the city. Master craftsmen in Sheffield are called "Little Mesters", a term that has endured for many years. Little Mesters are usually single specialists who run their own businesses, in their workshops, with skills that have been passed down through the years and through the generations, often from father to son. Reg Cooper's Bowie Knives are 100% Made In Sheffield.

Reg Cooper is a Master Craftsman and his products are always in high demand. Please order very early to avoid missing a deadline or a Christmas/Birthday gift. His knives are craftsman-made. Reg Cooper is always busy. Knives not in stock may take some time to be completed.

Reg is ably supported in the crafting of larger knives by Sheffield's last remaining Little Mester Grinder, Brian Alcock. He carries out the main initial grinding of the raw steel bars for Reg Cooper on the large sized Bowie knife blades.

 

Sheffield steel has a reputation second-to-none. Reg's knives are made from top quality carbon steel. These Bowie Knives are gleaming in appearance and the handles are made from a choice of materials that enhances the overall look and feel of the knives.

Bowie knives are available in sizes from blades of 7 inches to a monster 16 inches with a range of handle types; Buffalo Horn, Leather, Rosewood, Stag Horn or White-Bone.

The handles are polished to a beautiful appearance that sets off and compliments the knife blade.
These Bowie knives feel extremely comfortable in your hand and are perfect for any hunting or country-type activity where knives are required.

All Bowie Knives are supplied with a leather safety carrying sheath that can be slotted onto a belt. These knives are sharp.

Reg Cooper On BBC TV

BBC2's Great British Railway Journeys With Michael Portillo, originally broadcast in January 2011 and repeated frequently features Reg Cooper discussing his knife making.

In January 2015 Hollywood actor Sylvester Stallone was in Sheffield for an 'Audience-With' event. Sly is a collector of knives and is knowledgeable on the subject.
One of Reg Cooper's knives was donated to Mr Stallone by this web site and presented to him in person by Reg Cooper. Here's a video clip of the Sylvester Stallone Knife Presentation (avi file, 4 mins). The knife donated was a 10" Bowie Knife with Buffalo Handle.

 

169BBDEB-285F-45A7-8CA0-12AF4BF05EAD.jpeg

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2 hours ago, tozzin said:

This is the “ Reg “ that was Bills partner, Reg built up a reputation with his knives but I suspect it was Bill that taught him the ropes, Reg Coopers full time job when he worked on Egerton  Lane was in some kind of foundry as I remember the cast aluminium handles that Bill and Reg used for commando knives were made at the place where Reg worked. If Reg is still alive he must be well into his eighties by now.

 

The photo shows Reg meeting Sylvester Stallone, Reg was much slimmer when  I knew him.
 

NOTICE: Reg Cooper has decided to retire so therefore no bowie knives will be available from him.

 

Reg Cooper is a Bowie Knife maker from Sheffield. Aged in his 80's, he has been making Bowie knives for as long as he cares to remember.

The manufacture of Bowie Knives is now performed by a dwindling number of highly-specialised craftsmen in the city. Master craftsmen in Sheffield are called "Little Mesters", a term that has endured for many years. Little Mesters are usually single specialists who run their own businesses, in their workshops, with skills that have been passed down through the years and through the generations, often from father to son. Reg Cooper's Bowie Knives are 100% Made In Sheffield.

Reg Cooper is a Master Craftsman and his products are always in high demand. Please order very early to avoid missing a deadline or a Christmas/Birthday gift. His knives are craftsman-made. Reg Cooper is always busy. Knives not in stock may take some time to be completed.

Reg is ably supported in the crafting of larger knives by Sheffield's last remaining Little Mester Grinder, Brian Alcock. He carries out the main initial grinding of the raw steel bars for Reg Cooper on the large sized Bowie knife blades.

 

Sheffield steel has a reputation second-to-none. Reg's knives are made from top quality carbon steel. These Bowie Knives are gleaming in appearance and the handles are made from a choice of materials that enhances the overall look and feel of the knives.

Bowie knives are available in sizes from blades of 7 inches to a monster 16 inches with a range of handle types; Buffalo Horn, Leather, Rosewood, Stag Horn or White-Bone.

The handles are polished to a beautiful appearance that sets off and compliments the knife blade.
These Bowie knives feel extremely comfortable in your hand and are perfect for any hunting or country-type activity where knives are required.

All Bowie Knives are supplied with a leather safety carrying sheath that can be slotted onto a belt. These knives are sharp.

Reg Cooper On BBC TV

BBC2's Great British Railway Journeys With Michael Portillo, originally broadcast in January 2011 and repeated frequently features Reg Cooper discussing his knife making.

In January 2015 Hollywood actor Sylvester Stallone was in Sheffield for an 'Audience-With' event. Sly is a collector of knives and is knowledgeable on the subject.
One of Reg Cooper's knives was donated to Mr Stallone by this web site and presented to him in person by Reg Cooper. Here's a video clip of the Sylvester Stallone Knife Presentation (avi file, 4 mins). The knife donated was a 10" Bowie Knife with Buffalo Handle.

 

169BBDEB-285F-45A7-8CA0-12AF4BF05EAD.jpeg

What an amazing fella Reg is! It's fantastic to see he has received the recognition that so many masters of the trade deserve. I like to think you're right when you say Reg probably learned this from Bill.

I've always wanted my own Bowie knife, there's something incredibly beautiful about the craftsmanship and the style, not to mention their legendary status over in the USA. Maybe that is a trait passed down over the generations?

Thank you so much for sharing, I cannot wait to share this with my Grandad and other relatives, who I'm sure will be equally as grateful.

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