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Sheaf View Hotel, Heeley


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leksand

sheafview1935-forSH.jpg.ffcd778f550937735dffb11a5fda9462.jpg

(picture from John Smith's photo archive)

Above is the Sheaf View Hotel, pictured in 1935 for owners John Smith's, shortly before alterations in which the dram shop was taken into the smoke room and off sales were transferred to a new hatch behind the door to left of picture (the tap room entrance). Does anyone remember it when it was just two rooms in the area which is now seating and the route between the front entrance and the edge of the bar concourse area?

There is a large, foggy area in the history of this pub - within living memory of many - which I'm hoping to demist a little. What records remain suggest the Sheaf View had an extended period of closure and had to be relicensed, reopening in 2000. However, I think it may have had an earlier period of closure and I wonder whether anyone can throw any light on the validity of this assumption.

I have a note of a suggested magistrates' reference used for the Sheaf View which indicates it had a new licence granted around 1985. The simplest explanation of this grant, given that the pub was still a beerhouse in the late 60's, is that it stayed licensed for beer only until 1985. However, there are a few things which lead me to think this wasn't what happened.

Firstly, in the early 80's a series of outlandish plans to expand the premises (to 3 or 4 times larger than it is now) were approved but never enacted. Eventually a lesser extension, providing the bulk of today's floor area, was, seemingly, carried out. This latter project, I think, would have been completed around 1985. Historically, when the upgrading of a licence was a restricted process, improvement, expansion or even rebuilding of premises might be a requirement, though this had ceased to be the norm long before the 80's.

This makes me think that, perhaps, the Sheaf had been a pub (fullly licensed) in the 70's, closed, and was taken up as a new venture in the 80's before closing again whenever this licence was left to lapse. Another point which lends to this idea is that the 80's extension doesn't appear to have had anything to do with John Smith's, the house's historical owner.

If you have any recollections of the place from the 60's onward I'd be very interested to read them.
Do you remember drinking anything other that beer in there before 1985?
Do you remember drinking any beer other than John Smith's before the 80's?
Is the idea that it was shut for an extended period in the '70s plausible, or was it simply considered too small to become a pub?
How long was it shut before it was resurrected in 2000?
Do you know of anyone who ran it within this period?
(Prior to the new grant in 2000, the last landlord I know of is Ernest Morton who took it on in 1968)

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MartinR

I understand that under the old licensing system (pre-Blair) a pub was required to open at least once a day (possibly once each session) and could loose the license if they failed to do so without good cause.  Off topic, but relevant, my late mother recalled as a girl seeing blitzed pubs in Coventry opening to sell just a couple of bottles to keep the licence going.

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casmey

When I moved to Sheffield in 1976 the Sheaf View was still open as a John Smith's tied house - it may well have been beer only, though I doubt it as the last of these were likely all upgraded by the 1960s to full-on licenses.

I believe it probably closed around 1979/early '80s and sold by John Smith's.

The plans you refer to were to convert it into a MASSIVE banqueting/dance suite; planning permission was granted, but then the new owner changed his mind and put it for auction - I have a copy of theauction prospectus - somewhere.

It then remains derelict for a number of years.

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leksand
5 hours ago, casmey said:

When I moved to Sheffield in 1976 the Sheaf View was still open as a John Smith's tied house - it may well have been beer only, though I doubt it as the last of these were likely all upgraded by the 1960s to full-on licenses.

I believe it probably closed around 1979/early '80s and sold by John Smith's.

The plans you refer to were to convert it into a MASSIVE banqueting/dance suite; planning permission was granted, but then the new owner changed his mind and put it for auction - I have a copy of theauction prospectus - somewhere.

It then remains derelict for a number of years.

Thats wonderful - many thanks. It's great to know that useful predictions can be arrived at through modelling the old procedures, even though the formal records are lost. I'm inclined to agree, given your post, that it probably was upgraded to a pub before 1985. John Smith's certainly were fairly active during the late 60's in upgrading their remaining Sheffield beerhouses, but at present there remain too many "uncertains" to tell whether it was done as company policy, or on the request of licensees. There appears a reasonable chance that the Sheaf was one of the missing grants of 1969.

12 hours ago, MartinR said:

I understand that under the old licensing system (pre-Blair) a pub was required to open at least once a day (possibly once each session) and could loose the license if they failed to do so without good cause.  Off topic, but relevant, my late mother recalled as a girl seeing blitzed pubs in Coventry opening to sell just a couple of bottles to keep the licence going.

Cheers Martin,

I've seen that suggested before but am fairly confident it is apochryphal. Certainly during the period of highest policing levels, when any such legislation might feasibly have been enforced, it wasn't. I expect the idea probably arises from misinterpretation of one time residential requirements for certain licences or even from ancient requirements/rites for provision to travellers. The requirement to open would probably, in most cases, be an economic imperative for the tenant. Also after 1904, property owners might conceivably have demanded it in fear that inactivity would lead to premises being placed on the compensation list (and with few exceptions closed). Although there were supposedly instances where elaborate rebuilding procedure allowed pubs to be completely rebuilt, remaining open throughout (the Royal Standard for one, & the Stag at Broom reputedly aswell) there were numerous other cases where the old site was simply raised and a replacement built in the same position without any suspension or regrant of the licence in question. There are also a few peculiar instances of technical grants given under the proviso that excise licences for which right has been granted should not be taken out. That, it would seem to me, would be either granting in breach, or compelling misdemeanor and maybe provides reductio ad absurdum.

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ceegee

 From Beer Matters - April 2006 (CAMRA Publication) - a brief history of The Sheaf View

 

 

sheafview042006.jpgsheafview042006a.jpg.51d9523d628f58180dc83d0acb7f1176.jpg

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leksand
20 hours ago, ceegee said:

 From Beer Matters - April 2006 (CAMRA Publication) - a brief history of The Sheaf View

 

 

sheafview042006.jpgsheafview042006a.jpg.51d9523d628f58180dc83d0acb7f1176.jpg

Interesting article. Error strewn, as is often the case in the field, though still useful.

Any "grant" of 1879 could only be a renewal, there is not a chance it would have been granted a new "on" licence in that era. It's beer-on licence dated from before the major revisions to beerhouse law of the mid-Victorian era, when it was noted as a grocers. I'd guess that White's 1879 was the first directory the author could identify it specified as a beer retailer.

The "dram-shop" referred to wasn't a drinking room. It was simply an area partitioned from what was, at the time, the smoke room. It was in place in plans of late 1901, and was probably introduced in consequence of the Sale to Children Act (possibly even the revision of the same year). It was there simply to serve as an seperated off-sales department. As noted in the initial post, it was abolished late in 1935 or shortly thereafter.

Whilst it is quite true that the original ground floor was very small it is highly likely that in its earlier history one or more upstairs rooms were used for drinking as well (and the original staircase position is suggestive of this too). If memory serves, one of it's early landlords was a prominent functionary of Heeley Football & Cricket Clubs and they held meetings there - so it seems probable that there was a club room.

I'd be very grateful if anybody could confirm any Marston's association in the 70's. I'm inclined to think this suggestion is erroneous. All that I've seen indicates casmey's chronology is acurate for that period. Was there, perhaps, a Marston's association at some point after it's 80's reopening? Wolverhampton & Dudley (who took over Marstons), are noted in licensing documents from the 2000 reopening, though their name is struck (as is a note that Birkett's group were owners). My guess is that W&D still held some interest in the property beyond it's 90's closure and, perhaps, the latest reopening was, at least initially, some form of non-tied subletting.

Lastly, I don't understand the comment suggesting the old section is raised. I was pretty regular there for a few years and I don't remember any step down to the bar area. Was the level of bar concourse originally lower?

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Sadbrewer

The Beer Matters article has got it partly at least, wrong, the pub was roofless for many years until it was taken by a chap called Mike Pidgeon, who had previously breathed life into the Miners Arms in Low Valley, Wombwell. Mike sold the Miners and took and refurbished the Sheaf View, I assume Mike borrowed some finance from Marstons as their beers were the only ones on sale during Mike's time at the pub.

     Mike sold up and moved to Bradford to become the landlord of the brewery tap of The Trough Brewery in Idle.

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12 hours ago, Sadbrewer said:

The Beer Matters article has got it partly at least, wrong, the pub was roofless for many years until it was taken by a chap called Mike Pidgeon, who had previously breathed life into the Miners Arms in Low Valley, Wombwell. Mike sold the Miners and took and refurbished the Sheaf View, I assume Mike borrowed some finance from Marstons as their beers were the only ones on sale during Mike's time at the pub.

     Mike sold up and moved to Bradford to become the landlord of the brewery tap of The Trough Brewery in Idle.

I can’t remember it being roofless, no windows yes, they had been put through when it was realised that it looked as though it was going to be left derelict.

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1 hour ago, tozzin said:

I can’t remember it being roofless, no windows yes, they had been put through when it was realised that it looked as though it was going to be left derelict.

Partially roofless would have been a little more accurate tbf....I used to pass the pub quite often in the early to mid 80's as my girlfriend lived in Gleadless and viewed when coming back down the hill the holes in it were quite large.

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2 hours ago, Sadbrewer said:

Partially roofless would have been a little more accurate tbf....I used to pass the pub quite often in the early to mid 80's as my girlfriend lived in Gleadless and viewed when coming back down the hill the holes in it were quite large.

I was amazed at the size if the room you could see through the broken window on the Prospect Road side, I would have thought six people would fill it.

5FEF69A9-7BEE-413D-B5C8-8207A9E14C93.jpeg

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20 hours ago, Sadbrewer said:

The Beer Matters article has got it partly at least, wrong, the pub was roofless for many years until it was taken by a chap called Mike Pidgeon, who had previously breathed life into the Miners Arms in Low Valley, Wombwell. Mike sold the Miners and took and refurbished the Sheaf View, I assume Mike borrowed some finance from Marstons as their beers were the only ones on sale during Mike's time at the pub.

     Mike sold up and moved to Bradford to become the landlord of the brewery tap of The Trough Brewery in Idle.

Cheers.

Did he extend it too? The plans that I've seen which appear to be the first step to what it is like now were approved in 1984. Is that the right kind of era for his occupation?

2 hours ago, tozzin said:

I was amazed at the size if the room you could see through the broken window on the Prospect Road side, I would have thought six people would fill it.

That is the room that was formerly partitioned!

As a further aside I stumbled across a rough sketch of the ground floor plan from 1876. Back then it didn't have the corner entrance, only the central door evident in the photo at top. There was also no back passage between the rooms, just access from the front door. I suppose it's quite possible that there wasn't a bar then either.

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18 hours ago, leksand said:

Cheers.

Did he extend it too? The plans that I've seen which appear to be the first step to what it is like now were approved in 1984. Is that the right kind of era for his occupation?

That is the room that was formerly partitioned!

As a further aside I stumbled across a rough sketch of the ground floor plan from 1876. Back then it didn't have the corner entrance, only the central door evident in the photo at top. There was also no back passage between the rooms, just access from the front door. I suppose it's quite possible that there wasn't a bar then either.

Hi Leksand, I met my GF, now my missus, in 1982/3...ish, so would have started passing the Sheaf around that time, I visited the pub only once after Mike had opened it when a group of us who were regulars at his previous pub had a run over, I was very impressed with the high standards of decor and it was clear a lot of money had been invested, that visit must have taken place before the end of 1987 as I took my own boozer at that time and wouldn't have had the time to visit elsewhere, so I think it might well place the 1984 extension into Mike's period of stewardship. As to actual ownership of the freehold I'm not sure...our assumption was that Mike had bought the pub and refurbished it with a Marston's loan as their's were the only draught beers on the bar. I heard sometime later on that Mike had moved on to The Trough Brewery tap in Idle. Moving on did not surprise me as the business model seemed to be, buy a closed pub, turn it round and sell, I remember having a conversation with Mike's partner though where she said she was torn about leaving the Miners Arms as it was now doing so well.

I've no knowledge of the period between Mike and James B's ownership and was surprised to read above that it had closed in the interim period. I would have thought that had Marstons owned the freehold and not Mike they would have put a manager or tenant in rather than see the pub shut down, although that is pure speculation on my part...it may need a visit to the archives to pin down the freehold situation.

 

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4 hours ago, Sadbrewer said:

Hi Leksand, I met my GF, now my missus, in 1982/3...ish, so would have started passing the Sheaf around that time, I visited the pub only once after Mike had opened it when a group of us who were regulars at his previous pub had a run over, I was very impressed with the high standards of decor and it was clear a lot of money had been invested, that visit must have taken place before the end of 1987 as I took my own boozer at that time and wouldn't have had the time to visit elsewhere, so I think it might well place the 1984 extension into Mike's period of stewardship. As to actual ownership of the freehold I'm not sure...our assumption was that Mike had bought the pub and refurbished it with a Marston's loan as their's were the only draught beers on the bar. I heard sometime later on that Mike had moved on to The Trough Brewery tap in Idle. Moving on did not surprise me as the business model seemed to be, buy a closed pub, turn it round and sell, I remember having a conversation with Mike's partner though where she said she was torn about leaving the Miners Arms as it was now doing so well.

I've no knowledge of the period between Mike and James B's ownership and was surprised to read above that it had closed in the interim period. I would have thought that had Marstons owned the freehold and not Mike they would have put a manager or tenant in rather than see the pub shut down, although that is pure speculation on my part...it may need a visit to the archives to pin down the freehold situation.

 

Unless they're still sitting in a forgotten box somewhere, the withdrawn records from that period are gone unfortunately - it would appear they were binned as the licences were extinguished. For the Sheaf that means about 30 years of records are missing. In cases like this some info may be extractable from planning records but more generally recovery of the bulk is going to be reliant on recollections like yours (thanks again).

Have gone back over my notes and the '84 approval (December) was actually for a gaming licence. The copy of plans for extension that that was submitted on are dated late-'83 but don't state the approval date for the extension. They don't have reference to client either, only architect (Anthea Hardy), which to me suggests it was more likely to be an individual than corporate submission. It is a bit of a mystery as to the precise nature of Marston's involvement.

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20 hours ago, leksand said:

Unless they're still sitting in a forgotten box somewhere, the withdrawn records from that period are gone unfortunately - it would appear they were binned as the licences were extinguished. For the Sheaf that means about 30 years of records are missing. In cases like this some info may be extractable from planning records but more generally recovery of the bulk is going to be reliant on recollections like yours (thanks again).

Have gone back over my notes and the '84 approval (December) was actually for a gaming licence. The copy of plans for extension that that was submitted on are dated late-'83 but don't state the approval date for the extension. They don't have reference to client either, only architect (Anthea Hardy), which to me suggests it was more likely to be an individual than corporate submission. It is a bit of a mystery as to the precise nature of Marston's involvement.

Hi Leksand, I may (or may not) have had a brainwave.

Plz check your PM.

Edit...

Unfortunately I don't seem to have the required posts to send a PM, if I can receive one plz drop me a line with your email address on and I'll reply asap.

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Sadbrewer
On 13/05/2021 at 09:52, Sadbrewer said:

Hi Leksand, I may (or may not) have had a brainwave.

Plz check your PM.

Edit...

Unfortunately I don't seem to have the required posts to send a PM, if I can receive one plz drop me a line with your email address on and I'll reply asap.

Hi Leksand

   I've tracked down Mike Pidgeon...he has told me he left the Miners Arms just before the Miners strike... so early 1984, The Sheaf View had been empty for quite a few years and was derelict when he bought it. The land was owned by David Baldwin and former footballer Bronco Layne, they had the plans done to build a function suite there but opted to go to The Omega instead.

Mike sold the pub to Marston's as part of their plan for an acquisition drive in Sheffield, which never really materialised. If I hear any more I'll let you know.

 

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