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John Rose, The Royal Oak and Rivelin


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John William Rose is my partner's grandfather and we are trying to obtain further information.

From family material and the A-Z Index of Pubs John Rose was the licence of the Royal Hotel, 65, Earl Street in 1930 until 1936. We don't know whether he was there before this date.

In the 1939 Register he is the licence of the Rivelin, Tofts Lane, but we do not know for how long..

His daughter Ida Clixby (nee Rose) was the licence of The Globe Tavern, 107, Porter St., in 1939. In the A-Z she is shown as being there 1937-1942 being a beer retailer only after 1938. The oub was bombed in the December 1940 blitz and Ida ended up in the cellar.

Any further information would be appreciated. 

Peter 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Peter said:

John William Rose is my partner's grandfather and we are trying to obtain further information.

From family material and the A-Z Index of Pubs John Rose was the licence of the Royal Hotel, 65, Earl Street in 1930 until 1936. We don't know whether he was there before this date.

In the 1939 Register he is the licence of the Rivelin, Tofts Lane, but we do not know for how long..

His daughter Ida Clixby (nee Rose) was the licence of The Globe Tavern, 107, Porter St., in 1939. In the A-Z she is shown as being there 1937-1942 being a beer retailer only after 1938. The oub was bombed in the December 1940 blitz and Ida ended up in the cellar.

Any further information would be appreciated. 

Peter 

 

 

Hello Peter,

I have a John Rose as licensee of the Royal Hotel, Eyre Lane/Earl Street from July 1927 to September 1933 when it was transferred to Cecil Hemmingway Clarke. In general the licensee would be at the premises with interim authority a little before the transfer to them and, similarly, have left a little before transfer to the successor. This, however, wouldn't normally be by more than a month or two, depending on when the transfer sessions fall.

He appears as licensee at the Rivelin Tavern in July 1936 until May 1940.

The Globe Inn, Porter Street was a beerhouse, hence Ida Clixby's directory listing as a beer-retailer. However, it was on-licensed and also held a billiard licence. She was there a while, taking up the licence in May 1932 (possibly March - the record is not well written). The licence was transferred, after the bombing, in January 1941 to Angus Forsyth although this was not a conventional transfer. I believe he was Gilmour's company secretary (or some such position) and the transfer was in preperation for new legislation related to war damaged property, allowing the licence to be suspended for "resurection" at a future date. Obviously in this case the beerhouse was never rebuilt, although the preserved monopoly value of the licence was eventaully used as part of the package of surrenders for the Steel Inn, Manor.

She did have a conviction noted against her whilst there (nothing too serious) which I can relate if you wish,

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There was also a John Rose, presumably the same man, who during 1935, until May 1936, was licensee of the White Hart, Russell Street (a pub I know very well!)

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Dear leksand

Thank you for such a quick and useful reply and Mary was very appreciative when she read it.         

It is great to get John Rose back to 1927 at the Royal. Mary's dad, Ron, was there and we have postcards he received in 1930 and 1931. The information on the White Hart and the Rivilin helps also as covering the period 1935 to 1940. It appears there is a gap between late 1933 and for 1934. His third wife Elizabeth (nee Saxton, and Mary's grandmother) died in 1932 at the Royal, the death certificate identifying pulmonary tuberculosis and diabetes. She was cared for by her step-daughter Ida Clixby (nee Rose).

We are trying to identify John Rose's fourth wife. In the 1939 Register the other identified  person is an Edith A Rose (with Dale added as we assume the maiden name).  We are also trying to identify when he died.

In 1911 John Rose (born 1873) was still living in Hasland, Chesterfield where he worked his way to become an engine driver at the pit. He married Elizabeth Saxton in 1909 in Chesterfield and they had three children, one being Mary's dad (1912) , and twins (1913) the girl dying at birth. Sometime after 1913 he and Elizabeth moved to Sheffield. His son George, by the second marriage, was killed in Flanders in 1916. A War Pension allocation to Elizabeth Rose dated January 1917 gives the family address as 199, Staniforth Road, Attercliffe. He would have been exempt from conscription as 43 in 1916 and obviously married. We wonder if he could have entered the pub terade in the Attercliffe area?

We would be quite happy to hear about Ida's indiscretion. In 1939 she is recorded as a volunteer ambulance driver. She and her first husband, Ernest Clixby, a mining engineer, married in July 1922 and a year later he was killed at the Maltby pit disaster. She was a pianist and music teacher and in 1954 married George Brownfoot who was the Librarian for Sir John Barbarolli and the Halle Orchestra. I was privileged to meet her at their retirement house in Eastbourne in 1978 and have a wonderful photo of her holding our first son just born.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

Thanks for your great help and any more information you find would be appreciated.

 

 

 

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Edmund

The "Dale" on the 1939 Register will be John's wife Alice's new married name - she re-married to William H Dale in Rotherham in quarter 2 1952.  Alice's maiden name was Cheetham. So possibly John's death is that recorded in Rotherham in quarter 2 1949 aged 76 ( ref 2C / page 606 )

John married Elizabeth Collier in quarter 3 1898, and she died at the Royal Hotel on 5th April 1932 (buried on 8th April at City Road Cemetery, grave number 6652)

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Dear Edmund

Thanks for the reply. I have found the record for Alice Cheetham and a John Rose marriage in 1936 and this concurs with Alice being her birth name in the records. In the 1939 Register, however, the 1939 Register states Edith A and I can't find a reference under this name. I may have to get the marriage certificate to check.

I am unclear about the reference to an Elizabeth Collier. Mary's grandfather John William Rose married Elizabeth Saxton (both of Hasland) in Chesterfield Registry Office in 1909. We have the marriage certificate, confirmation of the maiden name in the 1911 census, the children alive from the previous marriage, and the birth certificates for John and Elizabeth's children all who were born in Hasland. At some time, but definitely January 1917, they were in Sheffield as verified by the war pension record for George Rose killed in Flanders in 1916. Ida Clixby (nee Rose) was the witness (step-daughter) to Elizabeth's (Saxton) death at the Royal in 1932 and we know cared for her during her illness.

Peter

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On 13/09/2020 at 16:14, Peter said:

Dear leksand

Thank you for such a quick and useful reply and Mary was very appreciative when she read it.         

It is great to get John Rose back to 1927 at the Royal. Mary's dad, Ron, was there and we have postcards he received in 1930 and 1931. The information on the White Hart and the Rivilin helps also as covering the period 1935 to 1940. It appears there is a gap between late 1933 and for 1934. His third wife Elizabeth (nee Saxton, and Mary's grandmother) died in 1932 at the Royal, the death certificate identifying pulmonary tuberculosis and diabetes. She was cared for by her step-daughter Ida Clixby (nee Rose).

We are trying to identify John Rose's fourth wife. In the 1939 Register the other identified  person is an Edith A Rose (with Dale added as we assume the maiden name).  We are also trying to identify when he died.

In 1911 John Rose (born 1873) was still living in Hasland, Chesterfield where he worked his way to become an engine driver at the pit. He married Elizabeth Saxton in 1909 in Chesterfield and they had three children, one being Mary's dad (1912) , and twins (1913) the girl dying at birth. Sometime after 1913 he and Elizabeth moved to Sheffield. His son George, by the second marriage, was killed in Flanders in 1916. A War Pension allocation to Elizabeth Rose dated January 1917 gives the family address as 199, Staniforth Road, Attercliffe. He would have been exempt from conscription as 43 in 1916 and obviously married. We wonder if he could have entered the pub terade in the Attercliffe area?

We would be quite happy to hear about Ida's indiscretion. In 1939 she is recorded as a volunteer ambulance driver. She and her first husband, Ernest Clixby, a mining engineer, married in July 1922 and a year later he was killed at the Maltby pit disaster. She was a pianist and music teacher and in 1954 married George Brownfoot who was the Librarian for Sir John Barbarolli and the Halle Orchestra. I was privileged to meet her at their retirement house in Eastbourne in 1978 and have a wonderful photo of her holding our first son just born.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

Thanks for your great help and any more information you find would be appreciated.

 

 

 

Hello again Peter,

I regret that I can't find any further reference to John Rose in my notes for on licensed premises in Sheffield or Rotherham. Attercliffe would have been a very difficult place to become a pub licensee, in particular, as there were relatively few full publican's premises and they did not come up very often. The beerhouses were also pretty stable relative to the rest of Sheffield, not generally changing hands that frequently.

Something I did spot which I initially dismissed but now, reading your recent comment, think may well be of relevance regards the Industry Inn, Darnall. This was run from 1925 until early 1935 by a Walter Cheetham who, it appears, died with the licence passing to his wife Ada Edith Cheetham (they married in the 4th qtr of 1903). I'd originally looked to see whether thay had a daughter called Alice (though in hindsight she may have been a bit young!), but perhaps this was Alice. Her maiden name was Keeton and I'd guess she was perhaps the daughter or (or otherwise closely related to) the woman who ran the beerhouse from 1891 to 1925. The Industry is not very far from Staniforth Road and perhaps John Rose cut his teeth doing some work there, probably to compliment another profesion?

Returning to Ida Clixby; on the 17th of September 1937, at or about 10.40pm did unlawfully supply to Arthur & Doris Bland, in the licensed premises, intoxicating liquor to be consumed on the premises otherwise than during the hours permitted &c &c. She was fined £2, but didn't receive a caution at the subsequent renewal so obviously wasn't regarded as a problematic licensee.

Hope this is of interest, even if not of direct use.

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Edmund
On 14/09/2020 at 14:19, Peter said:

Dear Edmund

Thanks for the reply. I have found the record for Alice Cheetham and a John Rose marriage in 1936 and this concurs with Alice being her birth name in the records. In the 1939 Register, however, the 1939 Register states Edith A and I can't find a reference under this name. I may have to get the marriage certificate to check.

I am unclear about the reference to an Elizabeth Collier. Mary's grandfather John William Rose married Elizabeth Saxton (both of Hasland) in Chesterfield Registry Office in 1909. We have the marriage certificate, confirmation of the maiden name in the 1911 census, the children alive from the previous marriage, and the birth certificates for John and Elizabeth's children all who were born in Hasland. At some time, but definitely January 1917, they were in Sheffield as verified by the war pension record for George Rose killed in Flanders in 1916. Ida Clixby (nee Rose) was the witness (step-daughter) to Elizabeth's (Saxton) death at the Royal in 1932 and we know cared for her during her illness.

Peter

Hi Peter,

 

The Elizabeth Collier marriage is obviously incorrect as you say.

I think there is some confusion with the Goodison family who lived near to the Roses in 1939.  Johns wife is Alice (surname changed later to Dale) and Edith A Goodison was James Goodison's wife.

1723067446_JohnRose1939.png.fd3980a354e356e2ec85b53c526262ec.png

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On 17/09/2020 at 18:17, Edmund said:

Hi Peter,

 

The Elizabeth Collier marriage is obviously incorrect as you say.

I think there is some confusion with the Goodison family who lived near to the Roses in 1939.  Johns wife is Alice (surname changed later to Dale) and Edith A Goodison was James Goodison's wife.

1723067446_JohnRose1939.png.fd3980a354e356e2ec85b53c526262ec.png

 

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Dear Edmund and leksands,

Some very good news.  Obtained the marriage certificate of John Rose and Alice Cheetham 6th June 1936. This confirms that he is the grandfather of Mary. He is recorded as a Licensed Victualler of 107, Porter Street, Sheffield.  In 1937 Ida Clixby (nee Rose) took over in this role and he and Alice moved to the Rivelin. As leksands identified there was also a John Rose, who during 1935, until May 1936, was licensee of the White Hart, Russell Street. This seems to fit all the dates covering the period 1927 to 1940. I will follow Edmund's suggested 1949 date for his death and get the death certificate.

Alice Cheetham was recorded as a spinster but interestingly her address is recorded as 114, Walkley Street, Sheffield which I understand was another Royal Hotel I have no more information about this pub except it became 2 houses in about 2014. Her father was recorded as Hiram Cheetham, coalminer (hewer).

The Cheetham family were certainly active in the pub trad as you have pointed out. I have found a record of them being at the Forge Inn, Millsands in the 1901 and 1911 census. I think it closed in 1917?

Leksands raised the issue of what profession John Rose may have had before entering the pub trade. He spent years at Hasland pit and became a Colliery Engine Driver. His children with Elizabeth (nee Saxton) were born in Hasland (1912 and 1913). The family are in Attercliffe Road early 1917 and John's son Cyril (by Isabella nee Baraclough) was killed in Flanders in 1916. We can only speculate that the move to Sheffield was to do the same job in one of the Sheffield steel mills or companies as a result of the war. He clearly was a highly experienced engine driver and maybe he may have got more pay in Sheffield? So no idea how he linked to into the pub trade. Perhaps he worked at the Staniforth company.

 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Peter said:

Dear Edmund and leksands,

Some very good news.  Obtained the marriage certificate of John Rose and Alice Cheetham 6th June 1936. This confirms that he is the grandfather of Mary. He is recorded as a Licensed Victualler of 107, Porter Street, Sheffield.  In 1937 Ida Clixby (nee Rose) took over in this role and he and Alice moved to the Rivelin. As leksands identified there was also a John Rose, who during 1935, until May 1936, was licensee of the White Hart, Russell Street. This seems to fit all the dates covering the period 1927 to 1940. I will follow Edmund's suggested 1949 date for his death and get the death certificate.

Alice Cheetham was recorded as a spinster but interestingly her address is recorded as 114, Walkley Street, Sheffield which I understand was another Royal Hotel I have no more information about this pub except it became 2 houses in about 2014. Her father was recorded as Hiram Cheetham, coalminer (hewer).

The Cheetham family were certainly active in the pub trad as you have pointed out. I have found a record of them being at the Forge Inn, Millsands in the 1901 and 1911 census. I think it closed in 1917?

Leksands raised the issue of what profession John Rose may have had before entering the pub trade. He spent years at Hasland pit and became a Colliery Engine Driver. His children with Elizabeth (nee Saxton) were born in Hasland (1912 and 1913). The family are in Attercliffe Road early 1917 and John's son Cyril (by Isabella nee Baraclough) was killed in Flanders in 1916. We can only speculate that the move to Sheffield was to do the same job in one of the Sheffield steel mills or companies as a result of the war. He clearly was a highly experienced engine driver and maybe he may have got more pay in Sheffield? So no idea how he linked to into the pub trade. Perhaps he worked at the Staniforth company.

 

 

 

 

 

Very interesting finds. Hopefully I can add a little more to them.

Although his address is noted as the Globe, John Rose was never the licensee there. I wonder whether he did play a role in managing it during his "gap" periods,

The licensee at the Royal Hotel, Walkley during the period of interest was one Ferdinand Marsh Gillvray. I expect that his wife was named Rose Hannah and was born Cheetham (she is one of 3 candidates as spouse on freeBMD) and that this was the connection to Alice. I'm not sure precisely what relation they were to each other (possibly cousins) as it would appear that Alice was Cheetham Shelley (hispanic protocol) whilst Rose was Cheetham Fisher. A very brief investigation suggests that Hiram was Rose Hannah's father whilst Alice's father was a Henry (based solely on potential marriages in the Sheffield area).

The licensee of the Forge Inn/Tavern, Millsands at the time of both census stated was named Henry Cheetham. Whether this is the same Henry that married Elizabeth Shelley you are probably in a better position than me to tell! As you suggested, this is recorded to have closed in 1917, although for technical reasons it continued to be licensed until 1919.

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Hi

Some further news. I have received the 1949 death certificate for John Rose (as identified by Edmund) and it is the correct one with more information.

He died 22/10/1949 age 76 and his occupation as Licensee. Cause of death cardiac arrest and chronic bronchitis. Reported by his widow Alice Rose (nee Cheetham) and the address is the Wellington Inn, Westgate, Rotherham! So at least 20 years as a licensee. It was operational from 1909, a Bentley pub to start with and closed in 2011. It is now a Dance Studio and the pictures show a fine Edwardian building. I have not found any further information. It looks as though I'll have to await the 1921 census release to find out what he was doing after the move from Hasland, still only 15-months to wait. Still some more to do re is first 2-year marriage in Hasland.

Re the Cheetham family. The 1901 census has a Henry Cheetham listed as publican 52, Fitzwilliam St. The Forge details show Alice being born in 1898 which fits the profile. Haven't been able to look at relationships in detail and I have struggled with them. Alice's father Hiram was recorded as alive n 1936 when she and John married. He was said to be a coal miner (hewer). 

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Edmund

Here's a couple of snippets regarding Henry Cheetham, publican.  He took on the Albion in 1923.  An Elijah Cheetham was the landlord of the Wheatsheaf Hotel in Bridge street in 1913 but left in 1915.

1029277070_HenryCheetham1909.png.16131e511aba8089e26c8f1de17f45f8.png

850451376_HenryCheetham1923.png.e7767319712073990f82f621c7b688d0.png

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leksand
On 05/10/2020 at 15:37, Peter said:

Hi

Some further news. I have received the 1949 death certificate for John Rose (as identified by Edmund) and it is the correct one with more information.

He died 22/10/1949 age 76 and his occupation as Licensee. Cause of death cardiac arrest and chronic bronchitis. Reported by his widow Alice Rose (nee Cheetham) and the address is the Wellington Inn, Westgate, Rotherham! So at least 20 years as a licensee. It was operational from 1909, a Bentley pub to start with and closed in 2011. It is now a Dance Studio and the pictures show a fine Edwardian building. I have not found any further information. It looks as though I'll have to await the 1921 census release to find out what he was doing after the move from Hasland, still only 15-months to wait. Still some more to do re is first 2-year marriage in Hasland.

Re the Cheetham family. The 1901 census has a Henry Cheetham listed as publican 52, Fitzwilliam St. The Forge details show Alice being born in 1898 which fits the profile. Haven't been able to look at relationships in detail and I have struggled with them. Alice's father Hiram was recorded as alive n 1936 when she and John married. He was said to be a coal miner (hewer). 

Hello again Peter,

The Wellington on Westgate was actually rebuilt in 1903, re-opening early in 1904 - it's the Alma on the other side of the road that was rebuilt in 1909. Both houses were Bentley's owned, the brewery being just down the end of the road.

Edmund's identification of Henry Cheetham as landlord at the Albion Hotel beerhouse in Burngreave is interesting as he is listed as licensee there until a transfer on the 30th July 1929. It appears quite plausible that this was necessitated by his passing as there was a Sheffield registered death of a John Cheetham (aged 70) in Qtr2 of that year. I'm not sure of the nature of the marriage certificate; whether Hiram Cheetham has explicitly stated he is Alice's father, or whether he was perhaps acting in lieu (as required by the speculation above). If you have evidence of Henry being married to an Elizabeth around the period of 1898, and evidence of Alice being Sheffield born, then GRO records would appear to indicate that Henry was Alice's father as opposed to Hiram.

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Thank you both for your help which has been invaluable.

Having liaised with Sheffield Archives, and being sent their pdf. booklet about steel works in Sheffield there is no way to track where John Rose may have worked without knowing the employer. We shall have to wait for the 1921 census and see if that helps.

I will key an eye on the Sheffield History site in case anything else comes up.

Thanks again.

Peter

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/10/2020 at 17:11, Peter said:

Thank you both for your help which has been invaluable.

Having liaised with Sheffield Archives, and being sent their pdf. booklet about steel works in Sheffield there is no way to track where John Rose may have worked without knowing the employer. We shall have to wait for the 1921 census and see if that helps.

I will key an eye on the Sheffield History site in case anything else comes up.

Thanks again.

Peter

I have a little more data regarding the Wellington. This is not precise licensing data but, as I understand, is drawn from electoral rolls &/or directories to indicate annual occupation of the premises. As we might expect, John Rose is listed as licensee for the years 1941-49, but Alice is suggested to have continued to keep the pub from 1950-52 until her marriage to William Dale, who in turn is listed as occupant for 1953.

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