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The Old London Apprentice pub


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Hey there,

I’m interested to know if anyone has any information regarding the ‘Old London Apprentice’ pub which was located at 77 Spring St. The building was demolished but I would like to know about its history.

Let me know!
K

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Sheffield History
37 minutes ago, KKB said:

Hey there,

I’m interested to know if anyone has any information regarding the ‘Old London Apprentice’ pub which was located at 77 Spring St. The building was demolished but I would like to know about its history.

Let me know!
K

 


Hi and welcome to the site 


Would that have been where the crown courts now stand?

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Ron Kendall
1 hour ago, KKB said:

Hey there,

I’m interested to know if anyone has any information regarding the ‘Old London Apprentice’ pub which was located at 77 Spring St. The building was demolished but I would like to know about its history.

Let me know!
K

Hi, 

Address was 81 Westbar Green according to this directory from 1841

Screenshot_20200422_110207_com.android.chrome.jpg

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50 minutes ago, Sheffield History said:

 


Hi and welcome to the site 


Would that have been where the crown courts now stand?

Thanks for the welcome

 

I’m not exactly sure if this is the same place. It seems that there were two Old London Apprentices, one on West Bar and one on Spring St. The one on Spring Street is the one I’m interested in. It was kept by Walter Wallace around 1901 but that seems to be the end of info that I can find about the pub.

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Ron Kendall

According to this directory from 1818, there were 2 pubs of the same name in the same area. One on Spring Street and the other in Westbar Green. Maybe one was known as 'Old' to distinguish it from the newer one? 

Screenshot_20200422_111258_com.android.chrome.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Ron Kendall said:

According to this directory from 1818, there were 2 pubs of the same name in the same area. One on Spring Street and the other in Westbar Green. Maybe one was known as 'Old' to distinguish it from the newer one? 

Screenshot_20200422_111258_com.android.chrome.jpg

That seems entirely possible. I believe that J. Beadle owned (or at least worked) at the one I’m interested in.

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Edmund

The renewal of the licence for the Old London Apprentice on Spring Street was refused by the justices in April 1904. The owners of the house were Thomas Rawson & Co. It was a fully licensed house in a “somewhat disorderly portion of the city”.  The licence was refused on the basis of being uneccessary, not because of the high number of fully licensed premises in the area but for reasons connected in particular with this house.  It was small, consisting of  a bar-parlour, tap-room, a kitchen and three bedrooms, together was two disused concert rooms.  In the past it had done good usiness, but there had been 14 tenants in the last 31 years, an average of 2 ½ yewars each.  In past times it had been successful as it was in the neighbourhood of the barracks, and had a music licence, but shortly before 1901 it had been put out of bounds by the military (at the tenant’s request)., losing their custom.  In October 1901 the music licence was refused due to lack of proper “structural accommodation” ie the rooms were too low.  A new tenant took over for a couple of years, then a Mr Brock took it on but found it difficult to make it pay.  The brewery found it difficult to find a suitable tenant, but in January 1904 found a man named Carlton.  However before the licence transfer was arranged it was found that his character was so poor that the Chief Constable opposed it. A subsequent applicant, Mr Astbury, was refused on the grounds of non-necessity. The house remained closed but the owners appealed and may have been able to obtain an Excise licence to carry on. The appeal hearing heard from several witnesses including Charles George Teather tenant from September 1903. He stated that the house was difficult to manage and to make pay, even the rent.  He stayed for under 6 months and on leaving still owed for rent and beer. The rent was £18 a year but he had consistently taken under 3s or 4s per day, though more at Christmas. The appealing brief made the case that the reasons given for refusal (bad character, numerous nearby premises) were invented to support the refusal decision. George Woolhouse, the cashier and manager for Rawsons brewery said the house was tied only for beer, and he thought that the pub’s business was relatively good. The books showed takings increasing up until 1902, then worsening, and Woolhouse put this down to the loss of the military trade and music licence. Walter Wallis a tenant for 5 ½ years (and currently tenant of the Wentworth House Inn, also a Rawsons house) told that he had saved £400 during his tenancy at the Old London Apprentice, though during his time he benefited from both military and music trade.  The Bench dismissed the appeal with costs.

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Sheffield History


When I'm searching for Spring Street in Sheffield it takes me to West Bar area on Google Maps - is that not correct?

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Edmund

See 08.pdf it shows the two London Apprentices

On 22/06/2009 at 13:44, SteveHB said:

Meadow St/Shalesmoor. 07.pdf

Corporation St/West Bar. 08.pdf

Fargate/High St. 09.pdf

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Edmund

I understand that the name commemorates the "base-born London Apprentices" who in 1643 contributed to the defeat of the Cavaliers at the Battle of Newbury.

"Charles's position was chosen with considerable judgment, which seemed to promise the accomplishment of a certain victory, and he had wisely resolved to keep the enemy at bay, and not to become himself the assailant. But this resolution was broken by the impetuosity and insubordination of some of the young cavalier commanders, who, despising the ' base-born London apprentices, whom they came rather to triumph over than to fight', rushed excitedly upon the Parliamentary right wing the moment they were drawn up for action on Enborne Heath, Consequently the King's whole plan of action was paralyzed, and the barriers of restraint were now burst through, and it became a deadly conflict, hand to hand in all parts of the field."

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3 hours ago, Edmund said:

The renewal of the licence for the Old London Apprentice on Spring Street was refused by the justices in April 1904. The owners of the house were Thomas Rawson & Co. It was a fully licensed house in a “somewhat disorderly portion of the city”.  The licence was refused on the basis of being uneccessary, not because of the high number of fully licensed premises in the area but for reasons connected in particular with this house.  It was small, consisting of  a bar-parlour, tap-room, a kitchen and three bedrooms, together was two disused concert rooms.  In the past it had done good usiness, but there had been 14 tenants in the last 31 years, an average of 2 ½ yewars each.  In past times it had been successful as it was in the neighbourhood of the barracks, and had a music licence, but shortly before 1901 it had been put out of bounds by the military (at the tenant’s request)., losing their custom.  In October 1901 the music licence was refused due to lack of proper “structural accommodation” ie the rooms were too low.  A new tenant took over for a couple of years, then a Mr Brock took it on but found it difficult to make it pay.  The brewery found it difficult to find a suitable tenant, but in January 1904 found a man named Carlton.  However before the licence transfer was arranged it was found that his character was so poor that the Chief Constable opposed it. A subsequent applicant, Mr Astbury, was refused on the grounds of non-necessity. The house remained closed but the owners appealed and may have been able to obtain an Excise licence to carry on. The appeal hearing heard from several witnesses including Charles George Teather tenant from September 1903. He stated that the house was difficult to manage and to make pay, even the rent.  He stayed for under 6 months and on leaving still owed for rent and beer. The rent was £18 a year but he had consistently taken under 3s or 4s per day, though more at Christmas. The appealing brief made the case that the reasons given for refusal (bad character, numerous nearby premises) were invented to support the refusal decision. George Woolhouse, the cashier and manager for Rawsons brewery said the house was tied only for beer, and he thought that the pub’s business was relatively good. The books showed takings increasing up until 1902, then worsening, and Woolhouse put this down to the loss of the military trade and music licence. Walter Wallis a tenant for 5 ½ years (and currently tenant of the Wentworth House Inn, also a Rawsons house) told that he had saved £400 during his tenancy at the Old London Apprentice, though during his time he benefited from both military and music trade.  The Bench dismissed the appeal with costs.

Wow that is a lot of useful information.

What was the address of the Wentworth House Inn? Is it still standing?

are there any known photographs of the Apprentice?

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Ron Kendall
19 hours ago, Edmund said:

1505039044_OldLondonApprentice1890.png.363487e5da99cac4ea7a1e503d2ca899.png

Is it possible to get access to these maps online? 

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  • 4 weeks later...
Jim2000

This is from a piece I cobbled together for family history research a while ago. Clara Cavalier was the illegitimate daughter of my GGGG grandfather Anthony Cavalier, who was a Sheffield sugar-refiner and Chartist councillor for Ecclesall ward (1849-1852). I had assumed the London Apprentice Music Hall was part of the pub on West Bar (but from the posts above, the Spring Street one sounds more likely?):

 

During the 1860s a small number of younger locals, without a main family wage-earner, managed to avoid the Workhouse: the line-up at the nearby London Apprentice Music Hall included orphans, runaways and others blighted by family tragedy. There were singing sisters Ellen and Sarah Byrnes ("Jenny and Topsy"), already fatherless, soon to lose their mother too; Ellen was old enough to marry, so Sarah (aged 7) teamed up with Clara Lilian Cavalier (aged 11) who was in the same predicament, to form "Topsy and Emma, Duettists and Juvenile Wonders". Bridget Conolly ("Bessie Armytage, the Great Contralto"), it was said, altered the hands of the clock at her Convent School in Hull to cover her escape - to travel with the singing troupe of Annie Milner ("Madame Tonellier") and pursue a music-hall career. There was also Emma Taylor (aged 11), appearing despite condemnation of the stage by her father Charles, a Sheffield comb-manufacturer, and by her mother, a clergyman's daughter. Charles Taylor died in 1866, and she was soon wed - to Singing Clown Joe Hodson, with his own backstory of running away to join a circus, and the couple founded Hodson's Portable Music-hall in a roaming horse-drawn caravan.

(Sources: mainly local newspapers)

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Sheffield History

 

Are there any photos anywhere of this place?

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Jim2000

4BC8EA56-6623-4555-B992-7DC51206589B.jpeg.955936003c1951791c116899bdfef17c.jpeg

From Sheffield Independent, 12th Jan 1867. This ad DOES specify West Bar, not Spring Street.

’Jenny Gill’ was a stage name of Ellen Byrnes (see above)

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Jim2000

Then there’s this, from Telegraph 12 July 1869. Not 100% certain it’s the same place (doesn’t say ‘apprentice’), but the proprietor and manager is the same person as above. First appearance of ‘Topsy and Emma’.

4DF9E996-6559-4418-A4DE-DEF2E5BC44B5.jpeg.aded000a5978ad556172cc8241018792.jpeg

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RichardS
On ‎23‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 22:31, Edmund said:

1505039044_OldLondonApprentice1890.png.363487e5da99cac4ea7a1e503d2ca899.png

Probably after the pub had long closed and unsure if it is the same building, but look to the left hand side of the below picture you can see where it was on this picture (follow the contour of the pavement as per the above map).

https://www.picturesheffield.com/frontend.php?keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;s19664&pos=36&action=zoom&id=22198

From the other side

https://www.picturesheffield.com/frontend.php?keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;s19665&pos=37&action=zoom&id=22199

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