Jump to content

Date Of Death At The Somme / Dating A Uniform


Guest RebeccaMachin

Recommended Posts

Guest RebeccaMachin

Hello there,

My Great Uncle (John) Thomas Howden, who lived in Attercliffe, was killed at the Somme in 1916. He was in the 10th York and Lancs. I found his enlistment papers on Ancestry last year, but this detail has been bothering me ever since and I was wondering if greater minds than mine could shed any light on it! His date of death is generally listed as 3rd July 1916 on various documents, but on these papers it gives the date as "1.7.16 + 3.7.16" and then "1-3.7.1916". I'm just curious as to why they'd list a period of days? Was this a common thing? Would it be due to the chaos during the first few days at the Somme, that they just assumed he went missing at some point during those three days? Or could two witnesses have accounted for his death, one of them wrongly? Many thanks if anyone can offer any advice. I've included a scan of the document (which also seems to list rather a lot of docking of pay for "absence" - would this be due to illness or would he have been allowed home to visit relatives whilst still in training?)

I'm also wondering if anyone could help me date this photo. It's obviously another Howden, as I can recognse my maternal grandfather's features. We don't have many photos from that side of the family, so this one must be quite special. At first I thought it might be Thomas, but when I researched the uniform I was inclined to think it was 1890s-1910, which would exclude him and point to his father perhaps, although I don't know of any other family members being servicemen. Do you think I'm correct with the dating? Any advice would be much appreciated!

Many, many thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't worry too much about the date of death discrepancy. CWGC also has date of death as 3-7-16. It's better than some men get.

As to the photo leave it with me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are there any other markings on the photo? For example an address or name of a photographer? It's proving quite difficult to identify the regiment definitively. What can be said is it is a late Victorian tunic so well outside of the WWI period.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rebecca,

This is my great grandfather who joined up and fought in the Boer War - apart fromthe insignia etc the uniform style looks identical so I'd assume it's safe to say it dates from that date ie c. 1900?

best wishes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not quite Dunsby they are from two different periods. The OP's soldier is wearing a glengarry hat that was phased out in the 1890's while your soldier is wearing the field service cap that replaced it in the very late 1890's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest RebeccaMachin

Thanks so much saw119 and dunsbyowl1867! You've both helped confirm my suspicions there, that it's a generation earlier than the Great Uncle I'm researching. Lovely to see your great grandfather there, Dunsby, thanks for the photo!

I've found the original scan, before I cleaned up the photo, saw119. I wondered if the insignia might be York and Lancs, which is why I initially linked it to my Great Uncle, but it's so hard to tell, even in the original hi-res scan. Here's a web friendly version for you! It says "Sanderson Bros" and "Richmond, Yorks."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, so a uniforms specialist on another forum is now almost certain that your Victorian soldier was a member of the Princess of Wales Own (Yorkshire Regiment). Although better known for the green facings to their uniform (you've probably heard their informal nickname 'The Green Howards') after the Childers Reforms of 1881 they adopted white facings until WWI. The reason for the attribution is also due to the fact that the regiment had it's regimental depot at Richmond in the period that the photograph was taken. The Princess of Wales Own were involved in several overseas actions in the 1880's and 1890's so I would recommend a search of the Ancestry medal rolls for a Howden in the Princess of Wales Own to see if your man served overseas and was decorated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest RebeccaMachin

Gosh, thank you so much, saw119! You're a miracle worker! I'm so grateful for your info! I shall further my research. Thanks again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 18/04/2014 at 11:55, saw119 said:

Not quite Dunsby they are from two different periods. The OP's soldier is wearing a glengarry hat that was phased out in the 1890's while your soldier is wearing the field service cap that replaced it in the very late 1890's.

Curiosity aroused. Smart military turnout down to knee level. What we ask is the untidy piece of webbing apparently anchoring him to the table?  Strange item to see on this type of photo.   saw 119 didn't comment. Anybody know? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...