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JohnEBoy

Old Wall On Norfolk Park Road

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The Duke of Norfolk insisted that access to Sheffield Midland, from the west ( the new road) was hidden from his property. It was therefore tunneled, but at some later time this was opened to produce a cutting. The Farm Buildings which had latterly, been used by the railway were demolished in the 1960's ( from memory) when a new building was erected much nearer the station.

Back to topic ...could this "interesting" brickwork simply be a former entrance which was subsequently bricked up? That might explain the coping stones...and I seem to remember seeing "Tradesmens" entrances being incorporated in other estate walls???

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Possible, Lysander, given that someone above mentioned the once lower ground level? So a doorway would be more logical than a noticeboard. But the 'mould'?

The once-knocked down wall sections, for access, will explain the sections of the wall rebuilt but not 'toothed in' (which is poor workmanship?)?

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How long does mould last on stone under normal conditions? If the theory of it growing behind a wooden notice board is plausible can anyone ever remember seeing a notice board at this position? I certainly cannot! What you call "toothed in" is, I presume,what is called "keyed in". Poor workmanship? I really couldn't comment. ;-)

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Obviously I'm no builder, but when rebuilding a wall (according to my mate who does) it should be 'keyed/toothed' in. Or the structure is severely compromised. Poor workmanship.

Why would mould- if that's what it is (it appears so)- appear in a 'square' where it appears some form of board was (especially given the weather 'eaves' (terminology?) above the small area?

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Why would mould- if that's what it is (it appears so)- appear in a 'square' where it appears some form of board was (especially given the weather 'eaves' (terminology?) above the small area?

The gowth of Ivy overhanging a wall could cause that, take a look at your own photo, I wonder how mutch Ivy is growing up the other side of the wall?

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I dunno..but I suspect to get to the bottom of this conundrum we may need a full survey of this wall, especially to see if the fixings holding the suggested notice board can be traced. I am also told that mould will not grow on stone because it doesn't contain any organic matter... and mould needs this to survive and grow..so a full biological examination may also need to be undertaken to trace and identify the source of such matter. On the other hand, salt crystalisation on porous rock is fairly common as are mosses and lichens. :wacko: ;-)

Out of interest, if you haven't seen it before, have a look at the English Heritage website and look under "Norfolk Heritage Park" entry no, 1001302...fascinating!

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I dunno..but I suspect to get to the bottom of this conundrum we may need a full survey of this wall, especially to see if the fixings holding the suggested notice board can be traced. I am also told that mould will not grow on stone because it doesn't contain any organic matter... and mould needs this to survive and grow..so a full biological examination may also need to be undertaken to trace and identify the source of such matter. On the other hand, salt crystalisation on porous rock is fairly common as are mosses. :wacko: ;-)

I had a quick look an my way home tonight

There is a line of mortar on top of the wall with embedded glass (now you don't see that nowadays), this is only extends over this very short section, there is no sine else where

Also I think the bottom is original build, only the top looks different

I think the key to this may lie on the other side, which I believe is on All Saints School Sports field. If any repair has been done the other side will probably show more clues (Hopefully)

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Dedicated guy, Stuart! lol

I think that the security glass stuff would have been along more of the wall, and the 'gobbo' has since given way and perished?

Lysander's point about an archaeological survey might help with this. I'm beginning to think that over time, the wall has been broken up for access here and there - or maybe rebuilt due to flooding (mentioned above) or collapse (the lean in the wall near the toll building). Although I'll be darned if I know what those 'eaves' are for ultimately?

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Dedicated guy, Stuart! lol

I think that the security glass stuff would have been along more of the wall, and the 'gobbo' has since given way and perished?

Strange, the only bit I could see all way along was over this small section

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Well, I was supposing, given that I didn't lean over the top of the wall to check.

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I'm going to disagree with previous theories here and say the secuity glass was only ever over this bit of the wall. I think the early theory about milk churns may well have been along the right lines. The stones that stick out are obviously shaped to keep water off the the wall below, a bit like lead flashing on a house extension. In this case I think there was probably a roofed structure, like a small lean-to sticking out from the wall which is likely to have been made out of wood. Under this could have been a place for milk churns, produce for sale from the farm or even a small covered bus stop.

As there was probably a roof that only sloped slightly, this would have been a good point for intruders to climb over an otherwise high and secure wall. So to deter unwanted visitors the property owners put glass on the top in the place where people climbed over.

The bit of the wall that isn't keyed in is interesting too. I don't think it was ever a gateway because there is a row of stones at the bottom that does seem to be keyed to the rest of the wall. If it had been a gateway I don't think there would have been a base row, it would just have been bare earth or maybe a large flat step. It's more likely to have been a recess in the wall to accomodate something that needed to be kept off the ground or not obstruct the footpath. Could there have been a drinking fountain or a water trough there perhaps, slightly raised up? Or if the ground level has gone up over the years it may have been a kind of raised platform of the type many farms had where the farmer put goods thatw ere to be picked up. A dray would then come along, park alongside and be level with the platform for the easy loading and unloading of heavy goods. Again this could have been for milk churns etc.

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I'm going to disagree with previous theories here and say the secuity glass was only ever over this bit of the wall. I think the early theory about milk churns may well have been along the right lines. The stones that stick out are obviously shaped to keep water off the the wall below, a bit like lead flashing on a house extension. In this case I think there was probably a roofed structure, like a small lean-to sticking out from the wall which is likely to have been made out of wood. Under this could have been a place for milk churns, produce for sale from the farm or even a small covered bus stop.

As there was probably a roof that only sloped slightly, this would have been a good point for intruders to climb over an otherwise high and secure wall. So to deter unwanted visitors the property owners put glass on the top in the place where people climbed over.

The bit of the wall that isn't keyed in is interesting too. I don't think it was ever a gateway because there is a row of stones at the bottom that does seem to be keyed to the rest of the wall. If it had been a gateway I don't think there would have been a base row, it would just have been bare earth or maybe a large flat step. It's more likely to have been a recess in the wall to accomodate something that needed to be kept off the ground or not obstruct the footpath. Could there have been a drinking fountain or a water trough there perhaps, slightly raised up? Or if the ground level has gone up over the years it may have been a kind of raised platform of the type many farms had where the farmer put goods thatw ere to be picked up. A dray would then come along, park alongside and be level with the platform for the easy loading and unloading of heavy goods. Again this could have been for milk churns etc.

This has my vote so far, They're to keep water from getting behind whatever small structure was built against the wall.

I think the "keying in" is a red herring brought about by the coincidental line of weathering that falls directly onto a joint. Look at the rest of the wall closely, you'll see the same joints in all the places where a large stone is abutted by 2 smaller ones.

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Could it be that the mortar that's embedded with glass was put in that precise place to stop anyone climbing the wall at that precise point, because of the danger of breaking a glass fronted display board. The Farm Grounds was used for years for the Whit Sing and as a venue for a yearly fair.

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Yeah, upon closer inspection, the anti-trespass cement & glass sections on top of the wall are so small and specifically-placed that they do only appear over those 'eaved' sections of wall. I had not looked properly before and assumed that the cement had fallen off other sections of wall with age due to weather.

Here's a few other things I noticed in the long straight bit of wall, near the toll house -

In pics 1 & 2 the wall appears to have been broken apart for access, in a different place to the above pic I posted (I think), the stones appear to be the same, not new, but cleaned off and re-used?

And the other two pics show some sort of footings (what was the original floor level?) and a recess deliberately made for the tree, which seems to have been there first?

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I'm going to disagree with previous theories here and say the secuity glass was only ever over this bit of the wall. I think the early theory about milk churns may well have been along the right lines. The stones that stick out are obviously shaped to keep water off the the wall below, a bit like lead flashing on a house extension. In this case I think there was probably a roofed structure, like a small lean-to sticking out from the wall which is likely to have been made out of wood. Under this could have been a place for milk churns, produce for sale from the farm or even a small covered bus stop.

As there was probably a roof that only sloped slightly, this would have been a good point for intruders to climb over an otherwise high and secure wall. So to deter unwanted visitors the property owners put glass on the top in the place where people climbed over.

The bit of the wall that isn't keyed in is interesting too. I don't think it was ever a gateway because there is a row of stones at the bottom that does seem to be keyed to the rest of the wall. If it had been a gateway I don't think there would have been a base row, it would just have been bare earth or maybe a large flat step. It's more likely to have been a recess in the wall to accomodate something that needed to be kept off the ground or not obstruct the footpath. Could there have been a drinking fountain or a water trough there perhaps, slightly raised up? Or if the ground level has gone up over the years it may have been a kind of raised platform of the type many farms had where the farmer put goods thatw ere to be picked up. A dray would then come along, park alongside and be level with the platform for the easy loading and unloading of heavy goods. Again this could have been for milk churns etc.

A great theory however one thing lets it down. The Farm was a mansion, not an actual farm. The rest of the area even as far back as the first OS map was an area of rich people's homes. So there was no farm selling milk!

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How about a different approach? I have a theory.

There was no practical use for the triangular section protrusions from the wall. Then, as now, many wall builders had a "signature" to identify walls they had built. Our wall builder had completed the section of wall on Shrewsbury Road (see Steves post #9 and photo). At some point he repaired a section on Norfolk Park Road (possibly whilst building the Shrewbury Road wall), and rather inappropriately used his signature style on this short section.

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A great theory however one thing lets it down. The Farm was a mansion, not an actual farm. The rest of the area even as far back as the first OS map was an area of rich people's homes. So there was no farm selling milk!

Good point, History Dude!

How about a different approach? I have a theory.

There was no practical use for the triangular section protrusions from the wall. Then, as now, many wall builders had a "signature" to identify walls they had built. Our wall builder had completed the section of wall on Shrewsbury Road (see Steves post #9 and photo). At some point he repaired a section on Norfolk Park Road (possibly whilst building the Shrewbury Road wall), and rather inappropriately used his signature style on this short section.

Possible. But why are there some anti-climbing- strips over the wall, only above those overhangs?

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That's a good point. When I look at the illustrations of the wall it is fairly obvious that the wall has been built, if not at different times, then by different contractors...photos 1 and 2 clearly show a different pattern to the stone work. On photo 2 the bonding on the left is clearly much rougher than it is to its right....All very interesting, but it doesn't solve the problem. I still reckon the simplest answer is a doorway cut into the wall at a later date and , at a later stage, filled in.

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A doorway might indicate a path to something. This might show up on a large scale OS map of the area, if anyone has one can they check?

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Yeah, this needs clarifying so far, as I'm getting confused with all of the differing theories and possibilities! lol

As we've stated before (un-keyed wall joints, etc), the wall has clearly been broken up at various points, for vehicular or walkway access?

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The protrusions in question we're put there for a purpose, wall builders didn't usually leave their mark, the parts of the wall that look as if it has been broken through at some point may have been taken down on a temporary basis when work was started on All Saints school as access for plant and such OR it may be as a result of a traffic accident.

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A doorway might indicate a path to something. This might show up on a large scale OS map of the area, if anyone has one can they check?

See our OS Map

http://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic/4008-os-maps-of-sheffield-and-district-1950s-over-300-of-them/?p=22940

The part of the wall under discussion is roughly where the R & K is in "Norfolk Park Road

Also see Google Map

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.372415,-1.456109,3a,75y,273.08h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sJGAkch-2T1NWxA_1cOOZmA!2e0

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It's interesting that none of the maps (including later ones) have any development in the area of the gap in the wall at all. In fact the only thing that is close to it is that lake in the Farm and later School grounds. Do we know anything about this lake, could it be linked to the closed gap? I have seen it in a street atlas for the 70's, so it was around a long time. Was it used by the public at all? And when was it filled in?

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By the way I think that the much lighter colour that runs along the entire length of the wall, might be caused by grit spray causing a sandblasting effect, when the road is gritted to clear snow.

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It's interesting that none of the maps (including later ones) have any development in the area of the gap in the wall at all. In fact the only thing that is close to it is that lake in the Farm and later School grounds. Do we know anything about this lake, could it be linked to the closed gap? I have seen it in a street atlas for the 70's, so it was around a long time. Was it used by the public at all? And when was it filled in?

I do not remember seeing the lake, but my late father told that I had, but at a very young age,

he said there were a couple of swans on the lake and I said the words "duck ducks" lol.

That would have been around 1958.

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