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RichardB

Just listened. Great work.

Tsavo, who thought I was bonkers, when I said I was going to do the best A-Z of old Sheffield pubs, would be proud. He didn't think that would work but he and Dobbed joined in posting it up and it's improved into a remarkable resource. Hopefully, your drain research will go on to catalogue and encourage research.

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Further to my June 3rd post about the European Heritage Days awards I'm excited and delighted to be one of the overall 2020 winners! Eleven storytellers from across the continent have won a funde

Hello All, I'm delighted to say that I have been shortlisted for European Heritage Storyteller of the Year for 'Drainspotting'. The link here is the just published submission which formed the final pa

Coupe Brothers, Carting contractors, builders merchants & brick manufacturers 19 Carlisle Street East (1919-1925)

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RichardB

"Calvin’s interest in old drains was piqued one day when he was walking down Palm Street, Walkley, and saw three drains embossed with ‘Sheffield Local Board’.

The discovery left history boffins on the Sheffield History website – www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk – baffled, so they set about finding out more.

Research revealed the Sheffield Local Board was set up in 1838 after the cholera outbreak – and the drains are evidence of the first attempt at a proper sanitation system in Sheffield.

“We have reason to believe these were installed in the late 1840s. They’re certainly around 160 years old,” said Calvin.

“In drain spotting terms, this is the most historic street in Sheffield.” "

Star

This got me thinking, so, I turned to the Pubs list (as you do) :

Summary of

Palm Tree Tavern - 35 Palm Street, Walkley

1871 - 79 William Thorpe (Beerhouse)

1901 John Joel

1937 – 1944 John Carty [ beer retailer only ]

1948 Frederick Stevens [ beer retailer only ]

1951 Ernest Vickers

So, Palm Street existed in 1871 but looking at the 1855 map there's no sign of anything other than Walkley Tan Yard - Maps (sure someone will repair that if it doesn't work).

Can we narrow down the date range ? Are there any data stones on Palm Street to help us ? What is the first map with South Road and Palm Street shown ? What is the status of Palm Street in 1861 census (if it exists at all) and in 1871 - the extent of 1871 details may show partial building on Palm Street, or it may be complete. To my mind you begin building at the bottom and work your way up the non-inconsiderable hill, but this may, or indeed, may not be true etc etc

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SteveHB

White's directory 1856; Palm street, Freedom Hill, Walkley, there appears to be four listings on Palm Street.

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RichardB

Very interesting, Thank you Steve. So, no Freedom Hill or Palm Street on map of 1855 (probably surveyed earlier 1854 ?) and four properties by 1856; which kind of pins down the earliest point at which drains would have been installed.

White's directory 1856; Palm street, Freedom Hill, Walkley, there appears to be four listings on Palm Street.

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Can we narrow down the date range ? Are there any data stones on Palm Street to help us ? What is the first map with South Road and Palm Street shown ? What is the status of Palm Street in 1861 census (if it exists at all) and in 1871 - the extent of 1871 details may show partial building on Palm Street, or it may be complete. To my mind you begin building at the bottom and work your way up the non-inconsiderable hill, but this may, or indeed, may not be true etc etc

See post #16 here:

Palm Street

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I suppose it's a wonder these covers have survived. During a scrap metal shortage some years ago there was a spate of manhole, drain and other covers disappearing in the night, and the council and utilities couldn't keep up with replacing them.

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I hope Calvin72 takes this opportunity to write a book about this subject and don't let the chance "Go Down The Drain"

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Calvin72

I have taken a bit of a chance at dating the 'Sheffield Local Board' covers as 1840s-1850s, but the cholera outbreak was 1838 and we have evidence of the road being in place by 1856 (and houses being constructed by 1853 according to the suicide report) so i think i am safe! But in all seriousness an exact date would be great (not grate as the tabloids would say!).

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Calvin72

Very interesting, Thank you Steve. So, no Freedom Hill or Palm Street on map of 1855 (probably surveyed earlier 1854 ?) and four properties by 1856; which kind of pins down the earliest point at which drains would have been installed.

Could what is now Palm Street have been a path before it was a road, or indeed had any houses along it?

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RichardB

Doesn't appear to be a whole lot of anything ... I know the area well, born Birkendale, lived on Hadfield Road and also Greenhow Street.

Could what is now Palm Street have been a path before it was a road, or indeed had any houses along it?

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Just had a bit of a thought... I wonder if Palm Street was originally built without any drains? The houses would certainly not have had bathrooms when new and most likely no running water, so a foul drain to each house wouldn't have existed. So maybe they didn't bother with rainwater drains in the street either?

The road had sewers from the outset (see below) and house sale details in 1865 stated that (at least some) had water and gas supplied.

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These to drain covers are on Lancing Rd, I did see one on Margaret St dated 1901 but a car was parked over it unfortunately.

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Calvin72

These to drain covers are on Lancing Rd, I did see one on Margaret St dated 1901 but a car was parked over it unfortunately.

Occupational hazard :)

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Calvin72

Think this recent discovery is one of my favourites! Certainly pre-dates the Corporation takeover of the Water Works in 1888 and could be quite a bit older than that...

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Calvin72

I was invited to a meeting with AMEY Streets Ahead which i attended this morning. AMEY officials said that many of the older drainage systems are going to be replaced and some grates and covers will have to be replaced. They said that anything interesting or historic should be reported to them so that every effort could be made to work around them. They said they have been in touch with museums, some of whom expressed an interest in re-housing Sheffield's historic pavement features. We agreed to keep in touch over the issue and i thinking about my next move.

By the way AMEY did confirm that they do own anything that they remove from the streets during the refurbishment programme and such items are usually recycled, although they also admit that Victorian cast iron drain covers can also be worth up to £100 each. I informed them that i intend to apply for listing the most interesting historical pieces.

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Calvin72

Less politics...more drainspotting

A fine condition 1895 example - the only date in the 1890s that i haven't found is 1894.

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Hi all

Its good to see interest in this subject,as an ex gully cleaner in sheffield ive had much experiance in maitenance of both old and new drains ,theres stil quite a few Gully covers showing many of the older foundarys which made covers .

It would be good to see these preserved , as they may not be around much longer.

We can't maintain the new ones so it doesn't make alot of difference getting rid of the older ones, the main problem is some of the older ones Known as number 4's are quite shallow and soon fill up with grit and leaves . Most had baskets in ,in the past which could be emptied .

Also there unable to be jetted or rodded , but how many of the new ones ever get jetted anyhow , not many looking round .

regards melvyn

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Calvin72

Hello Melv,

Thanks for your comments! Can i ask if you have seen any older or more interesting drains? Any older date than 1890? Or any of the 'Sheffield Local Board' ones featured in that thread (not sure how to link but its still on the first page).

I think i've been here long enough now to welcome you to Sheffield History :)

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Calvin - to link to a previous post anywhere on the site, Right click on the grey number in the top right of the post that you wish to link. (this one for instance is number 112) and click "Copy link Location"

Then - in your current post - highlight the text that you want to use as the link.

About 1/3 of the way across the reply box, see the small icon which looks like a piece of a chain.

Left click this and you will get a box in which you can paste your copied URL

Hope this is a good enough explanation.

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Calvin72

Corner of Lydgate Lane and Manchester Road, Crosspool

Sheffield Corporation 1933

attachicon.gifSheffield Corporation 1933.jpg

attachicon.gifSheffield Corporation 1933 - Lydgate lane.jpg

I have posted a pic of one of these from 1932 and it has been pointed out that they also exist in Endcliffe Park dated 1936. I have seen one in Attercliffe, Lower Walkley and the City Centre. I don't know what they are or why they appear in some places and not others.

Anyone know?

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hilldweller

If they are not normal manholes over sewers then perhaps they might be "Lamp Holes".

With the deeds of our house was a plan of the local sewer network. It included the local trunk sewer which runs across the sports field.

Marked on the plan were manholes marked as "MH" but there was also an intermediate feature marked as "LH".

This, I found, stands for "Lamp Hole".

These were smaller vertical shafts placed to enable a lamp to be lowered down to the level of the sewer to ascertain if the sewage was flowing properly.

they would only require to be big enough to allow the passage of the lamp, 'so perhaps the cover on top was of a smaller diameter.

I wasn't able to find the "Lamp Hole" and cover because some-one has built a children's playground over it. :rolleyes:

HD

Further to above I've just been looking at the "Picture Sheffield" historical maps drawing of the Sheffield sewers as of 1883 and it shows a 3 foot 9 inch by 2 foot 6 inch main sewer running straight under Endcliffe Park. It also shows a main sewer starting yards from the site of the Lydgate Lane feature.

I think that they were perhaps the replacement man-hole covers in use in the thirties.

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Calvin72

If they are not normal manholes over sewers then perhaps they might be "Lamp Holes".

With the deeds of our house was a plan of the local sewer network. It included the local trunk sewer which runs across the sports field.

Marked on the plan were manholes marked as "MH" but there was also an intermediate feature marked as "LH".

This, I found, stands for "Lamp Hole".

These were smaller vertical shafts placed to enable a lamp to be lowered down to the level of the sewer to ascertain if the sewage was flowing properly.

they would only require to be big enough to allow the passage of the lamp, 'so perhaps the cover on top was of a smaller diameter.

I wasn't able to find the "Lamp Hole" and cover because some-one has built a children's playground over it. :rolleyes:

HD

Further to above I've just been looking at the "Picture Sheffield" historical maps drawing of the Sheffield sewers as of 1883 and it shows a 3 foot 9 inch by 2 foot 6 inch main sewer running straight under Endcliffe Park. It also shows a main sewer starting yards from the site of the Lydgate Lane feature.

I think that they were perhaps the replacement man-hole covers in use in the thirties.

Sounds good to me!

Many thanks HD :)

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