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History dude

Picture Sheffield Change

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I have just thought of a way around Picture Sheffield not being classed as "commercial" and solving the problem of reproduction on other websites. They can keep the watermark, but they would have to drop the ordering of images for money.

This is not unlike the Sheffield History site where some images (such as the maps) have a watermark on them, but yet SH doesn't charge people for copies.

Of course Sheffield Archives would loose a great deal of money from such a change, leading to the need for more cash.

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No, it's an acknowledgement of their legal entitlement to protect their property (or if you want to be pedantic, the public's property on their behalf), enforceable by law. The fact that it's unlikely they would go to court is irrelevant.

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No, it's an acknowledgement of their legal entitlement to protect their property (or if you want to be pedantic, the public's property on their behalf), enforceable by law. The fact that it's unlikely they would go to court is irrelevant.

Only if it was followed, which it wasn't, even on Sheffield History. I could say more, but I don't want to get any members into trouble.

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Pete Evans has answered my message with this:

The ethos of Picture Sheffield remains unchanged - free access to over 55,000+ images. As you may know - not all of the copyright belongs to the City Council. Many of the images belong to third parties and there are variations in how they wish to have their images used. Some allow full and free access while others are much stricter and don’t wish to have their images used other than ‘viewed’ on Picture Sheffield (in fact there are some images on Picture Sheffield which are not available to view online at all). These variations are a result of many decades of collecting; the current standard is to allow online viewing and additional private / commercial use (subject as always to copyright rules).

The change to the watermark I mentioned in my previous email will still allow full viewing and use of images; the advantage of the change will be that everyone will know that the image originates from www.picturesheffield.com. I am hopeful that this will act as a promotional tool so that more people will be made aware of the service, which can only be a good thing.

I have since sent a further e-mail saying to him that if he can tell me the difference between Picture Sheffield and the Commercial Companies who operate picture libraries, then no letter will be sent out to my MP, if he can clearly demonstrate that the public benefit from the use of the site.

For at the moment all I can see is that Picture Sheffield gets public money and the others don't!

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So, we can include them on threads on here now then - as they will be pasted with picture sheffield as an advert for their services.

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So, we can include them on threads on here now then - as they will be pasted with picture sheffield as an advert for their services.

The answer to that is, no we can't use the images on here.

"By viewing a digital image from this collection, you are agreeing to comply with copyright licensing regulations. These state that your use of the image is for personal use only, and that you will not copy, publish or distribute the image in any way".

http://www.picturesheffield.com/terms.php

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Can we still provide Picture Sheffield reference numbers as links in our posts ?

HD

Yes HD, links are allowed, nothing has changed.

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Sreve's right of course, but the last part of Pete Evans reply seems to leave an argumment open!

The change to the watermark I mentioned in my previous email will still allow full viewing and use of images; the advantage of the change will be that everyone will know that the image originates from www.picturesheffield.com. I am hopeful that this will act as a promotional tool so that more people will be made aware of the service, which can only be a good thing.

If you can only access images for your personal use, you already know where they originate from.

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Rather odd really. Since if you had allowed the images to be shown, plus bearing in mind Sheffield Archives, couldn't (as Bayleaf said) do anything about it, so it's merely Sheffield History respecting it's right (well as I said sometimes) to follow the guidelines set out in the above posts - So then.. Had you said yes... It would have taken away visitor numbers away from the Picture Sheffield website. In that only one person need go to the site to get an image and then paste it on here for all to view, well SH members.

If other sites were not as "honest" as Sheffield History and accepted that a watermark image means that such images are spoilt, then Picture Sheffield would see a fall in visitor numbers.

The whole thing is irrelevant however, as the only thing that will come out of putting a watermark on an image is to make more users buy such images. Thus making more money for picture Sheffield. Which is if you ask me is the only reason a watermark has been put on.

A few years back I went on an organised visit to Sheffield Archives with the Friends of Sheffield Manor. The person from Archives made it clear to all present that you could (for private use only of course) take camera phone images etc, of any document that were put in front of you. And indeed several persons did indeed take images of those documents brought out to show us.

I wonder how Pete Evans stands on that now?

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Pete Evans has replied to my question.

As a result I have closed the option of writing to my MP.

He showed that another service run by a Council (Picture The Past) used the watermark and had a basket option.

It's sad I told him that these services now have to be run by penny pinching and profit interests. But they don't have to be as honest as Sheffield History (in not putting on the pictures on here). Instead they can follow the bad practice of another Council instead.

He also showed that the National Archives and other bodies that have the title "National" in there name use Watermarks and charge!

However to follow their lead on anything would be a MASSIVE mistake as they are a complete waste of taxpayers money and geared up to gain income at high levels from commercial publishers. With no thought whatsoever to those who are on a small budget.

So it looks like there's nothing that can be done about the Watermark.

I certainly wont be going to Picture Sheffield again.

Final score

Council 1

Users 0

But who will win in the end? Only time will tell.....

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Is the revenue from PictureSheffied image sales published anywhere? If not possibly a freedom of information request?

Edit: decided to make FoI request anyway, submitted as follows:

Dear Sheffield City Council,

Please would you provide the number of sales and associated revenue, of image sales carried out via the Archives and Local Studies "Picture Sheffield" website, over the last three financial years, broken down by year?

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Answer received to Freedom of Information request as follows:

Dear Mr Wilkinson

Thank you for your information request

Income from Picture Sheffield is derived from two sources

a. income from private sales which is managed by a third party on behalf of the City Council and

b. income from licensing commercial rights received directly by the Local Studies Library. Taken together the two figures represent income received by the City Council.

Taking the last three complete years the figures are as follows:

2010/11 the sales income for the whole of the Local Studies Library was £8,422. This figure includes non-Picture Sheffield income such as printouts from microfilms and photocopies. There is no separate breakdown for Picture Sheffield for this year.

2011/12 the sales income for the whole of the Local Studies Library was £7,807. Part way through the year we began to record income separately for Picture Sheffield. From the start of separate recording (June 2011) through to 31 March 2012 the figure for Picture Sheffield was £1,437.

2012/13 the income from Picture Sheffield was £2,862.

We do not keep figures on the number of photographs sold.

Regards

Gill Heddershaw,
Business Support Officer
Business Strategy - Business Support

So, for last year, assuming an average price of £11.65 for a 10" x 8" inc postage, Picture Sheffield sold 4.7 photos per week.

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The reduced size watermark is now in place:

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Thats FAR better!!

Great stuff from the SH campaigners, well done guys.

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Well done all round. The figures your request elicited were particularly interesting Edmund.

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