RichardB Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 I'm interested in locating the date of my paternal Great-Grandfathers death. As a family we have been trying to pin down this one fact since 1982, in the last 25 years we have progressed exactly "none". Anyone have any thoughts, suggestions (giving up is sadly, not an option; "get therapy" has already been bandied about). Here's the data : (Brant and Brunt surnames interchangeable, I'll stick to Brant throughout) George Arthur Brant born 26th September 1844, Wards Place, Rotherham Elizabeth Simpson born 11th December 1853 George and Elizabeth marry Dec 1870 St Georges, Sheffield ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Children John Henry Brant born 11 April 1871, died 30th Jun 1911 (lived at Victoria Villa, Upperthorpe) George Arthur Brant born 12 Jul 1873 William Brant born 10th Jan 1875 Lilly Brant born 10th May 1878, died 8th September 1901 Jim Brant born 19th November 1881, 5th August 1952 (my Grandfather) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The International Genealogical Index states "About 1890" as the date of Geroge Arthurs passing, however, he is alive and well on the night of the 1891 census (attachment), at Court 2, House 3 Dixon Street; occupation Fender fitter. I've looked long and hard at Ancestry.co.uk to no avail (it's not George Brant from Caistor, as I've checked him out, alive and well in 1891 and living with his - unrelated to me - wife and family), also have National Burial Index (v2) and all the Sheffield Burial Registers relating to "B" surnames (Sheffield FHS) My Uncle (now in his 80's), has visited every record office imaginable, and my sister (Zoro on this forum) has spent many hours, especially in the Sheffield Archives. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- George Arthur is on the 1893 Burgess Roll (bit like a Rates listing), this does not however mean he was alive in 1893, as the listing would be produced well in advance of printing. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- George Arthur is shown as desceased on the marriage certificate of Lilly Brant and Henry Bayliss - 21st August 1898 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hennypenny Posted May 29, 2007 Share Posted May 29, 2007 I'm interested in locating the date of my paternal Great-Grandfathers death. As a family we have been trying to pin down this one fact since 1982, in the last 25 years we have progressed exactly "none". Anyone have any thoughts, suggestions (giving up is sadly, not an option; "get therapy" has already been bandied about). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- George Arthur is shown as desceased on the marriage certificate of Lilly Brant and Henry Bayliss - 21st August 1898 I know you probably have looked at this already, but have you checked out the George Brand whose death is registered in Sheffield Dec qtr 1898, 9c 369 ? If he died just before their wedding, his death may not have been registered until after the wedding, although this would have been unusual as deaths were usually registered quite quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted May 29, 2007 Author Share Posted May 29, 2007 I know you probably have looked at this already, but have you checked out the George Brand whose death is registered in Sheffield Dec qtr 1898, 9c 369 ? If he died just before their wedding, his death may not have been registered until after the wedding, although this would have been unusual as deaths were usually registered quite quickly. I'll re-check my data, thanks for the pointer, getting to the state where any information is gratefully received; even followed a "hint" of a trip to Reno, Nevada; unlikely for the time .... keeping on, plodding on. As Kevin Costner nearly said in "Field of Dreams" : "You find him; I'll pay" :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hennypenny Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 I'll re-check my data, thanks for the pointer, getting to the state where any information is gratefully received; even followed a "hint" of a trip to Reno, Nevada; unlikely for the time .... keeping on, plodding on. As Kevin Costner nearly said in "Field of Dreams" : "You find him; I'll pay" Another thought (although in 25 years you have probably covered everything ) When the children died and were buried, did you check their graves to see if they were put in the same grave as their father? At that date and address I would have guessed Wardsend cemetery as a possible location for his burial, have you checked this one? Sorry if you have already done all this, just running things past you as I think of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 I'm interested in locating the date of my paternal Great-Grandfathers death. As a family we have been trying to pin down this one fact since 1982, in the last 25 years we have progressed exactly "none". Anyone have any thoughts, suggestions (giving up is sadly, not an option; "get therapy" has already been bandied about). Here's the data : (Brant and Brunt surnames interchangeable, I'll stick to Brant throughout) George Arthur Brant born 26th September 1844, Wards Place, Rotherham Elizabeth Simpson born 11th December 1853 George and Elizabeth marry Dec 1870 St Georges, Sheffield ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Children John Henry Brant born 11 April 1871, died 30th Jun 1911 (lived at Victoria Villa, Upperthorpe) George Arthur Brant born 12 Jul 1873 William Brant born 10th Jan 1875 Lilly Brant born 10th May 1878, died 8th September 1901 Jim Brant born 19th November 1881, 5th August 1952 (my Grandfather) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The International Genealogical Index states "About 1890" as the date of Geroge Arthurs passing, however, he is alive and well on the night of the 1891 census (attachment), at Court 2, House 3 Dixon Street; occupation Fender fitter. I've looked long and hard at Ancestry.co.uk to no avail (it's not George Brant from Caistor, as I've checked him out, alive and well in 1891 and living with his - unrelated to me - wife and family), also have National Burial Index (v2) and all the Sheffield Burial Registers relating to "B" surnames (Sheffield FHS) My Uncle (now in his 80's), has visited every record office imaginable, and my sister (Zoro on this forum) has spent many hours, especially in the Sheffield Archives. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- George Arthur is on the 1893 Burgess Roll (bit like a Rates listing), this does not however mean he was alive in 1893, as the listing would be produced well in advance of printing. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- George Arthur is shown as desceased on the marriage certificate of Lilly Brant and Henry Bayliss - 21st August 1898 Well, it's 2008 and time to trawl this old chestnut up again ... 1891 Sheffield Influenza epidemic still my favourite, but, could have been Aliens ... Honest appraisal; progress since 1982 (my Uncle started the search) - absolutely none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobberd Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Hi Richard how is your great grand father listed on William and Martha's wedding certficate. Cant seem to find William on 1891 census was this a common occurance of the time for people to be omitted (not that you were around then but can see you have researched a fair bit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted February 8, 2008 Author Share Posted February 8, 2008 ... but can see you have researched a fair bit ... Nice appraisal, family effort since 1981, daily in my case since 2002 William and Martha, no mention of Father, could be he was dead, could be they had a "falling out", could be he was seriously ill, my favourite - he died in the Flu epedemic - he certainly doesn't appear to have been at the Wedding as a witness. 25/12/1896, both aged 21, of Dixon Street, occupation Stikey (?), marriage witnesses Harry Simpson and Mary Ann Nicholson ... and wot the heck is a Stikey ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobberd Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Obviously a brain draining amount of effort has gone in. I see another of your family has given a lot of time to your ancestry at Martins php site. As for the flu epedemic were mass burials a common event? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted February 8, 2008 Author Share Posted February 8, 2008 Obviously a brain draining amount of effort has gone in. I see another of your family has given a lot of time to your ancestry at Martins php site. As for the flu epedemic were mass burials a common event? Martin is keen, I'll give him that, bet he's still got Anne Chew on his site, I made that one up ! I'd take considerably less information, if I was confident that the data I was left with was as near 100% accurate as can reasonably be assumed. As for the Flu, it happened a few days after the Census, about 400 people died between April and June, pear above 100 in a week. I've managed to locate precisely one person that died - but he lived VERY close, St Philips Road (if memory serves) against my GGF on Dixon Street, basically across the Churchyard. No proof. If the outbreak was localised, St Philips was filling/full, if there was a mass burial then GAB (as I call him) is most likely in Wardsend. Need to see Newspapers from April-June 1893 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobberd Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Are there any other reasons he would have not been recorded and I am in no way casting any aspersions on your heritage. ie paupers grave or some such. Obviously these were hard times in Sheffield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted February 8, 2008 Author Share Posted February 8, 2008 Are there any other reasons he would have not been recorded and I am in no way casting any aspersions on your heritage. ie paupers grave or some such. Obviously these were hard times in Sheffield Purely delighted some fresh eyes are looking for the Old Bugger. Not aware of any circumstances that would be considered "out of the ordinary". We have to consider Paupers (I still think it was a requirement to record Deaths, however, pauper or suicide would mean shame etc and such details might have been "hidden" as best as possible); could have fallen on hard times through illness, however all other family members are accounted for and buried as expected. Not a grinder so life expectancy would have been "normal" for the times; grinders died young. Just alive on Census night and recorded on Marriage Certificate as deceased in 1898, no clue of him inbetween, other than a meaningless entry in a Directory or Poll book. I'd take any reason for his demise, not aware of any other sweeping illnesses around Sheffield at that time. Death abroad ? Doubtful, just a steel bloke, having said that my Father was dragged out of retirement at 68 to show "young blood" how to "do the business". I'd accept him being "hung, drawn and quartered for goosing the Queen" at present ! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobberd Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I do understand your frustration, until today my brother and I have had no luck finding my Grandfathers history until I remembered a bible he had been presented in 1918 by a army comrade and we are now looking for George Arthur and not Arthur as he was called by one and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HughW Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Richard, You say that George Arthur is on the 1893 burgess roll. Is that 1892/3 or 1893/4? Although there may a time lag between collection and publication I don't think it would stretch to someone who died in the flu epidemic still being listed in 1893. If we were talking about a trade directory it could happen, but my feeling is it would not happen in the electoral register. Presumbaly he is not listed in later burgess rolls. What was the address in 1893? I had another look at the Wardsend indexes without success. Have you considered looking in Burngreave Cemetery? If the family was not inclined to use a church graveyard/cemetery they might consider using Burngrave which was the first municipal cemetery (or rather a non-denominational burial board later taking over by the city). The snag is that the index covering 1896-1919 is lost so it would be a slog searching without a good idea of the date. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest skeets Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Purely delighted some fresh eyes are looking for the Old Bugger. Not aware of any circumstances that would be considered "out of the ordinary". We have to consider Paupers (I still think it was a requirement to record Deaths, however, pauper or suicide would mean shame etc and such details might have been "hidden" as best as possible); could have fallen on hard times through illness, however all other family members are accounted for and buried as expected. Not a grinder so life expectancy would have been "normal" for the times; grinders died young. Just alive on Census night and recorded on Marriage Certificate as deceased in 1898, no clue of him inbetween, other than a meaningless entry in a Directory or Poll book. I'd take any reason for his demise, not aware of any other sweeping illnesses around Sheffield at that time. Death abroad ? Doubtful, just a steel bloke, having said that my Father was dragged out of retirement at 68 to show "young blood" how to "do the business". I'd accept him being "hung, drawn and quartered for goosing the Queen" at present ! Hi Richard .Have you thought of any dirty deeds, by his wife and lover, and him being mixed with the epidemic victims by bribery, perhaps this may account for your familys extensive search to no avail Skeets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest skeets Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Nice appraisal, family effort since 1981, daily in my case since 2002 William and Martha, no mention of Father, could be he was dead, could be they had a "falling out", could be he was seriously ill, my favourite - he died in the Flu epedemic - he certainly doesn't appear to have been at the Wedding as a witness. 25/12/1896, both aged 21, of Dixon Street, occupation Stikey (?), marriage witnesses Harry Simpson and Mary Ann Nicholson ... and wot the heck is a Stikey ??? Could be a spelling mistake for a Striker [ one who wielded the sledge hammer for the Blacksmith ]Skeets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardB Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 Time for another airing for this one; another year gone, total progress approximately zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HughW Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 I wander back into the gravitational pull of this 'black hole' of a thread from a different direction, without a solution to the main question, but with a minor puzzle. In 1881 and 1891, when GA and Elizabeth Brant were living at 2h2ct Dixon St, Joshua Green and Sarah Ann PALEY were next door at 3h. In 1901 and 1911, after GA Brant's mysterious death, Elizabeth Brant, widow and Sarah Ann Paley, widow are listed in the same household and Sarah Ann is listed as Elizabeth's mother. Sarah Ann appears to have married Joshua PALEY in 1867 as Sarah Ann ROPER. I can't quite work out how Sarah Ann became ROPER, nor can I find Elizabeth and Sarah Ann together in an earlier census. My interest is in an event in 1869 in which the PALEYs were forced to abandon their home in Creswick Street because of the hostility of local people who believed that Sarah Ann's indifference and lack of care had led to the death of her 17 year old step-son Thomas. A crowd attempted to attack her on more than one occasion and their house ws damaged. I will post some more details later if you are interested. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syrup Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 On 15/12/2015 11:26:13, HughW said: I wander back into the gravitational pull of this 'black hole' of a thread from a different direction, without a solution to the main question, but with a minor puzzle. In 1881 and 1891, when GA and Elizabeth Brant were living at 2h2ct Dixon St, Joshua Green and Sarah Ann PALEY were next door at 3h. In 1901 and 1911, after GA Brant's mysterious death, Elizabeth Brant, widow and Sarah Ann Paley, widow are listed in the same household and Sarah Ann is listed as Elizabeth's mother. Sarah Ann appears to have married Joshua PALEY in 1867 as Sarah Ann ROPER. I can't quite work out how Sarah Ann became ROPER, nor can I find Elizabeth and Sarah Ann together in an earlier census. My interest is in an event in 1869 in which the PALEYs were forced to abandon their home in Creswick Street because of the hostility of local people who believed that Sarah Ann's indifference and lack of care had led to the death of her 17 year old step-son Thomas. A crowd attempted to attack her on more than one occasion and their house ws damaged. I will post some more details later if you are interested. Hugh Have you seen the Newspaper Articles ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HughW Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I have some articles about the events in Creswick Street (and the inquest) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syrup Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Are these the one's ??? A SCENE IN CRESWICK STREET .The Sheffield & Rotherham Independent (Sheffield, England), Tuesday, September 07, 1869; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syrup Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 REPETITION OF THE SCENE IN CRESWICK STREET The Sheffield & Rotherham Independent (Sheffield, England), Wednesday, September 08, 1869; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syrup Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 A SCENE IN CRESWICK STREET . The Sheffield & Rotherham Independent (Sheffield, England), Saturday, September 11, 1869; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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