Library Cuts

[Lyn 1]

Sheffield Archives and Local Studies Library are already having their hours cut from Sept. There is a survey online to see what we want from our library services as other cuts are planned.

Have your say either by filling in forms at your local library or here - www.sheffield.gov.uk/libraryreview

Lyn

[Unitedite Returns]

Lyn,

It would be helpful if you were to post as to precisely what are the changes planned for the Local Studies and the Archive opening hours.

It might prompt more folks to submit their comments on these, quite significant changes to these precious services.

Certainly they seem very significant to me, from the flier that I picked up from the Local Studies last week.

[Bayleaf]

I filled in the online version yesterday. Sorry to say it's very similar to previous council 'consultations', in that you can work out the answers they're hoping for and intend to implement.

Over the years the library service has borne the brunt of cuts more than most other departments, and the suggestions put forward are always the same. The main difference this time is the accent on the use of volunteers. The Council's assertion that the use of volunteers will not be at the expense of paid staff is at best laughable and at worst insulting to the public's intelligence.

I'll get me coat...

[Lyn 1]

Qiute a big change

From Sept 1st

Opening Hours from 1 September 2012

Archives

• Monday - 9.30am-5.30pm
  
• Tuesday - 9.30am-5.30pm
  
• Wednesday - Closed
  
• Thursday - Closed
  
• Friday - Closed
  
• Saturday - 9.30am-5.30pm
  

Local Studies Library

• Monday - Closed
  
• Tuesday - Closed
  
• Wednesday - 9.30am-8pm
  
• Thursday - 9.30am-5.30pm
  
• Friday - 9.30am-5.30pm
  
• Saturday - 9.30am-5.30pm
  

[Lyn 1]

The online library survey seems to mainly be about branch libraries and does not really cover Archives and Local Studies but there is a document here about them. https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/SCC-Home/libraries/archives-and-local-studies/servicechanges.html

Lyn

[Unitedite Returns]

I filled in the online version yesterday. Sorry to say it's very similar to previous council 'consultations', in that you can work out the answers they're hoping for and intend to implement.

Over the years the library service has borne the brunt of cuts more than most other departments, and the suggestions put forward are always the same. The main difference this time is the accent on the use of volunteers. The Council's assertion that the use of volunteers will not be at the expense of paid staff is at best laughable and at worst insulting to the public's intelligence.

I'll get me coat...

Totally agree with you, but without getting political "How is it that sparsely populated East Yorkshire can secure the funding for such fantastic projects as The Beverley Treasure House and The Hull History Centre, yet densely populated Sheffield cannot do the same?"

[Bayleaf]

The online library survey seems to mainly be about branch libraries and does not really cover Archives and Local Studies but there is a document here about them. https://www.sheffiel...icechanges.html

Lyn

Thanks Lyn, I'd seen the survey but not what you've posted about Local Studies and Archives.

[History dude]

Sorry to say this, but in this current climate the Libraries have got off light

As for the Archives and Local Studies at least they haven't closed one of them down. The consultation is just an exercise, most of the nitty gritty hard stuff is already on the cards. What surprises me is why they are still open after 4pm on some days. Bus services have closed down in some parts after 6pm. Staff costs are higher at night and extra lighting is needed. Much better to have another 10am to 4pm day then open for a few people who come in at night.

I don't have much faith in the council at the moment. They can't even organise the bin service right, so not much chance of getting a good result from a survey. :(

[Bayleaf]

The consultation says to bear in mind that staff costs to open in the evenings and on Saturdays are higher. I don't understand that. The staff's rates of pay are the same whatever hours they work. They used to get enhanced pay for Saturdays, but that finished years ago.

Part of the problem is that ask the public if they want the library,post office etc open at such and such a time the answer is always yes, despite the fact hardly anyone uses it. On the other hand there are people who can't get in during the day, but they're entitled to a service.

The survey also asks if the library should lend e-books. A few authorities already do, at the expense of proper books. Unfortunately there are only 450 or so titles that can legally be loaned.

[History dude]

Anyone who puts out a survey can engineer it to give answers to things it's going to implement anyway. The answers can then be used to justify actions. Such as closing down something..... Our survey said 26% would be happy if it closed at 4pm and only 22% were unhappy, whilst 12% wanted it opened past 6pm. 22 and 12 are greater than 26. But they can claim a result for having it shut at 4pm. Despite the fact 38% people want it open after 4pm....All just an example......

I used to do survey work you see.

Back in the 1980's there was a survey done which showed about 70% of school leavers in typical working class areas of Sheffield, left school without a single education qualification regardless of age! As you can imagine the Education Department didn't like the surveys!

So if the survey comes out against the way you want something done. Then you just question it, saying the sample size was wrong etc. Which is what the Education people did to that survey. Then you do what you were going to do in the first place or just ignore the survey!

One of the things Bayleaf points out is the E-Book thing being used by other Councils.

The survey could be used for saying there's no demand for E-Book loans and used to have a dig at Councils, who have introduced the service.

Even if any survey highlights issues that could be addressed, how to do them is up for debate still.

[duckweed]

If they really were interested in what the public wanted they wouldn't have cut Archive hours without consultation. Some days the Archive is so full you can't get a seat. Cutting the hours will result in people only being able to use the archive by booking well in advance. This will cause problems for researchers who don't know where their research is going and find one piece of research may take several days and ideally would like to come back the next day and so on till they have finished their research. It means it will stretch research into weeks instead of a couple of days. Of all the Library services I would say the Archives and the Study centre are the most used. The other thing that worries me about Archive cuts is that archivists are not just having opening hours cut, they are having their work as archivists cut.

[History dude]

I noticed that in the proposed list of things the archives want to do is a something about using volounteers to scan things. It shows how things can change when the working order of these institutions is thrown into debates and crisis over funds. Not long ago I suggested using volunteers to digitise part of the collection, but this sugestion was ridiculed by the management of Archives, saying mostly the unions would not have any of it.

Of course what they actually mean by scaning things and what they will do with the stuff when scaned, can open a real debate on the future of the archives and it's working practices. In any case I believe that a great deal of material (A4 in size) could be scanned quickly and cheaply using volunteers, with the right frame of mind of the management, but what happens to the material would open up a lot of issues for archives, surrouding the work done there, working practices and funding issues.

It would be interesting to know who uses such services. If there is a chance that users would be prepaired to pay a subscription fee, clearly based on income, which could extend the hours opened and provide a better service. Judging by the way it's set up Archives on Shoreham, could operate this, leaving Local Studies free from it. After all many once free things are now subscription based. You only need to look at the music streaming services on-line to see the direction they are going in.

[duckweed]

The present Archive scanners are very poor. They would need a better scanner. Digitising most if not all would protect the frailer documents from handling. A lot of the card indexing before was done by volunteers I believe, and that is common in many archives. If the collection was more digitised or they at least had a better scanner available they could do a similar service to the National Archives, wherby you can order a document from their catalogue and it is scanned and sent to you either on disc by post or emailed direct to you. I wouldn't mind paying 50p a visit. I would find it harder to pay more.

[DaveH]

Anyone who puts out a survey can engineer it to give answers to things it's going to implement anyway. The answers can then be used to justify actions. Such as closing down something..... Our survey said 26% would be happy if it closed at 4pm and only 22% were unhappy, whilst 12% wanted it opened past 6pm. 22 and 12 are greater than 26. But they can claim a result for having it shut at 4pm. Despite the fact 38% people want it open after 4pm....All just an example......

I used to do survey work you see.

Back in the 1980's there was a survey done which showed about 70% of school leavers in typical working class areas of Sheffield, left school without a single education qualification regardless of age! As you can imagine the Education Department didn't like the surveys!

So if the survey comes out against the way you want something done. Then you just question it, saying the sample size was wrong etc. Which is what the Education people did to that survey. Then you do what you were going to do in the first place or just ignore the survey!

One of the things Bayleaf points out is the E-Book thing being used by other Councils.

The survey could be used for saying there's no demand for E-Book loans and used to have a dig at Councils, who have introduced the service.

Even if any survey highlights issues that could be addressed, how to do them is up for debate still.

Lies, Damn lies and Statistics (and don't try to tell me that was Shakespeare! )

As you have pointed out, the actual survey itself produces information from a sample of people which, if correctly collected, is valid data.

However, how that data is then interpreted seems to be something of a very subjective "adjust it suit your own viewpoint" and "put your own personal interpretation on it" in much the same way that policians and accountants are expert at doing.

The fact that you can interpret data like this makes the whole survey meaningless.

Even the mathematical branch of statistics will only ever give probabilities on the true meaning / outcome and not a definitive answer.

If statistics did give precise answers I would be winning the National Lottery regularly.

[History dude]

I wouldn't say meaningless. As any survey can show you trends on all sorts of matters. It really depends on several things: 1 the size of the survey. 2 the questions asked. 3 who commissioned the survey. 4 If it can be compared to other known data, such as population figures etc.

For example one of the most widely used survey is the music charts. In the UK these are based on sales from record sellers. However in the USA these incorparate what's played on the radio. They are like that because of number 3. In the past because the UK did not have a MASSIVE amounts of radio stations, sales charts were used. But in the USA Radio stations were more important, so the chart was based on them.

Now back to the Library survey. You can generally judge the likely answers by looking at the questions asked in it. For example if the question is: Do you use the Local Studies Library? Then of course there are only two possible answers. So that question will depend on the size of the survey as to it's usefullness. It can be compared with other data, however from other parts of the UK and possibly previous surveys in Sheffield. So if only 40% of uses of the Library use it, that could be compared to a national average of say 45%. But previous surveys might have been lower at 38%. So the Council could claim that the service is improving and growing despite funding cutts to the service.

On the scanning of material. As I said I did suggest to them that with the introduction of cheap multi-function printers it was possible to scan a great deal of stuff very cheaply. But the reply I got back from them was that these do not produce things in standards that are excepted by the proffessionals in the fields of archive. In other words very high quality and produced on expensive equipment, used by very few people. Somewhat like the material put on the Picture Sheffield website, which cost a great deal of money to set up, which had to found from places such as the Lottery. In fact if you or I were to set up a Picture Sheffield, I reckon it would have cost about a third of what the Council paid for it and be a lot better to use. But that's not uncommon in Council or Government departments. They tend to get ripped off everytime!

[DaveH]

I wouldn't say meaningless. As any survey can show you trends on all sorts of matters. It really depends on several things: 1 the size of the survey. 2 the questions asked. 3 who commissioned the survey. 4 If it can be compared to other known data, such as population figures etc.

For example one of the most widely used survey is the music charts. In the UK these are based on sales from record sellers. However in the USA these incorparate what's played on the radio. They are like that because of number 3. In the past because the UK did not have a massive amounts of radio stations, sales charts were used. But in the USA Radio stations were more important, so the chart was based on them.

America has several charts to cover different styles of music and not just the Billboard top 100, - probably because the audience (and hence survey sample size) in America is massive,

Traditionally Britain has based it's charts (and there are several, BBC and NME for example) on record sales. I think these days they probably base their charts on "downloads" which probably gives a different chart altogether as this is changing the sample of people asked as some people don't buy music by download and some do and it is unlikeley that a single person would want to do both,

[DaveH]

Now back to the Library survey. You can generally judge the likely answers by looking at the questions asked in it. For example if the question is: Do you use the Local Studies Library? Then of course there are only two possible answers. So that question will depend on the size of the survey as to it's usefullness. It can be compared with other data, however from other parts of the UK and possibly previous surveys in Sheffield. So if only 40% of uses of the Library use it, that could be compared to a national average of say 45%. But previous surveys might have been lower at 38%. So the Council could claim that the service is improving and growing despite funding cutts to the service.

You make my point about statistics perfectly here history dude.

If you asked one person only if they used the local studies library then statistically either evryone does or no one does!

If you asked 2 people then its either everyone, nobody or exactly 50%

The larger the sample the more realistic and meaningful the result becomes.

So the ideal situation is to ask EVERYBODY.

Now if the question is, as it is on General Election polling day, "Do you want a Conservative or Labour Government?" (I think the last 80 years of political history and the nature of the current coalition Government indicate that Britain is really only a 2 party system, - or at least elections are really just a 2 horse race) then to get the best result in a Democratic society it is essential that everyone entitled to vote, does vote.

[duckweed]

They have a much better scanner in the Derbyshire Archives so presumably they managed to get funding. What is not considered is that being able to scan to a good quality would actually make the archives money. I myself would have been willing to pay for scans of maps and large documents as I have at the Derbyshire Archive. At present I have to resort to taking loads of photos on my digital camera. Local studies had to put a map on an easel and use a slightly better camera than my camera could but neither local studies have a big enough scanner to copy bigger documents than A4.. Besides me there are thousands of Americans and Australians researching their family history and academics who would pay for copies online.

If you are researching the history of an area you can find that the information is spread across 8 or 9 archives and who has the time or the money to visit every archive personally? Its a lot cheaper to order a copy of a document from the National Archives than actually go to London and work my way through the records and then order a copy. So its a win win situation. Wouldn't it be great if other archives could do the same?

I don't see why volunteers couldn't help digitise the card indexes etc. Every Archive I have been to Doncaster, Rotherham, Matlock, Lincoln and Wakefield all have indexes written out by local history society volunteers and this was done many years ago so presumably no union objections then.

My major concern about cutting archive opening times means that they are actually cutting archivists jobs and archivists do more than sit at a desk and go and get documents for you. They catalogue and preserve. We already kinow what has happened re Museums Sheffield.

[Bayleaf]

They have a much better scanner in the Derbyshire Archives so presumably they managed to get funding. What is not considered is that being able to scan to a good quality would actually make the archives money. I myself would have been willing to pay for scans of maps and large documents as I have at the Derbyshire Archive. At present I have to resort to taking loads of photos on my digital camera. Local studies had to put a map on an easel and use a slightly better camera than my camera could but neither local studies have a big enough scanner to copy bigger documents than A4.. Besides me there are thousands of Americans and Australians researching their family history and academics who would pay for copies online.

If you are researching the history of an area you can find that the information is spread across 8 or 9 archives and who has the time or the money to visit every archive personally? Its a lot cheaper to order a copy of a document from the National Archives than actually go to London and work my way through the records and then order a copy. So its a win win situation. Wouldn't it be great if other archives could do the same?

I don't see why volunteers couldn't help digitise the card indexes etc. Every Archive I have been to Doncaster, Rotherham, Matlock, Lincoln and Wakefield all have indexes written out by local history society volunteers and this was done many years ago so presumably no union objections then.

My major concern about cutting archive opening times means that they are actually cutting archivists jobs and archivists do more than sit at a desk and go and get documents for you. They catalogue and preserve. We already kinow what has happened re Museums Sheffield.

I don't think anyone would object to trained volunteers carrying out jobs such as you suggest that are otherwise never going to get done. The objection to volunteers is where they are used to supplement staff or replace them in jobs where people were formerly employed. Around the country branch libraries have been handed over to volunteers or community groups as an alternative to closure. Unfortunately, like your comment about archives, the public see only a part of what staff are required to do, with the usual comment "Well, anyone can stamp books and put them on shelves".

Well, now branch libraries are computerised, if you let volunteers take over you give them access to members personal details, what they're reading etc. And when you've volunteered for a duty and it's snowing, or raining and dark, it takes commitment to turn up, and as a volunteer elsewhere myself I know how easily it can dissolve with some people.

And how will the commitment stand up when time after time there's just the two of you to deal with anything up to twenty or so youths hell bent on disruption and vandalism? Don't count on a response from the police unless physical harm is being done, cos they know by the time they arrive the youths will be long gone.

Libraries are a public service, provided for the public, not by the public. If anyone fancies running a library, there's nothing to stop them. You don't need a licence, just put some books on a shelf and let people come and choose. and of course you can choose who can use it, not just any member of the public. But please don't call it a library service!

I shall now get my coat...!

[History dude]

I don't think you can loan books out to the public as simple as that! Publishers would have something to say about that. Like most copyright material the owners like to get paid for things they produce and so councils have to pay for books to be loaned out in some sort of way.

Volunteers are always cheap labour to anyone in work. It's those who get paid that explote volunteers most of the time. Having been a volunteer with many organisations, the biggest problem is dealing with the paid members of staff. It's often them that are not pulling their weight. They don't want to work extra hours to complete the project even though the volunteers will. Some volunteers can do the job better than a paid member of staff! However when a paid post becomes available and the same hard working volunteer applies for it, they don't get it. And the reason why is bizzare! It seems many Council staff and those projects funded by the Lottery are on short term contracts. So as I write this, some paid member of staff of one of these projects around the North of England will be looking for another short term contract job of the same nature. So when a project advertises for staff these people pick up on it and are there. And because they have networked with each other in the past tend to get the jobs, over anyone who is just a volunteer.

Volunteers can often work better than paid workers. If they are from the local community they will often know it better than a paid worker who drives 10 miles to work. A local libarary set up by the community can be run better than one run by the Council in some circumstances. If you put local people in charge of the services they won't have a problem with vandalism. The service they provide will be up to date. Staff employed by them will be happier and not want to leave. And the service provided will be better and more cost effective to run than one run by a L. A.

And Bayleaf you are wrong when you say - Libraries are a public service, provided for the public, not by the public - As they are paid for by the public!

It's our monies who pay for this service and it shouldn't be closed off from us saying how it should be run.

[Bayleaf]

Where to begin?

Councils have never had to pay to lend books. It’s only in the last 20 or so years that authors have received payment for library book lending, via the Public Lending Right, which is directly funded by central government. This is based on an annual sample of lending statistics from public libraries across the country. The amount one author could receive was capped at quite a modest level so that popular authors couldn’t scoop the pool.

Volunteers working on projects is a different situation from volunteers running a public service. A library is not an entity in itself, it is part of a city-wide network, and to function properly it needs to operate above the parochial level.

In the 1980’s when very little money was available for new books, local people at one library raised money to buy new books. But they only wanted local people using that library to be allowed to borrow them, which is not an acceptable condition for what is part of a city-wide service. If the city-wide exchange of books breaks down each library would not be able to provide a decent level of service.

Some years earlier, in a different part of the city, the person in charge of a branch was approached by a lady who said that she and a group of friends who used that library had been talking, and they proposed to pay the library a regular subscription, in return for which they would have first dibs on all the new books. No matter how the librarian tried, she could not persuade the lady that it wasn’t possible or acceptable.

My point is that these are examples of what can happen when local people run services.

I know you have more experience of being a volunteer than I have, but I can’t agree with your views on volunteers v paid workers. If someone is doing a job for which they are paid, why should they work more hours than their contract requires? They have other commitments, families etc. In any case, having worked for many years in public service, I can say that the vast majority of the people I’ve worked with were always willing to go the extra (unpaid) mile.

Volunteers are there by their own choice, and it’s up to them if they want to give more time. On the project I’m currently working as a volunteer, the job is supposed to finish at 4pm. There is a paid worker there at all times, and I’ve yet to see them finish before 4.30 or later, or take a lunch break, willingly putting in the extra unpaid time.

If professional staff are on short contracts, why shouldn’t they apply for jobs as they arise, they’re trying to have a career. If they’re successful over volunteer applicants, don’t you think it might be that they’re more qualified and experienced rather than an old pals network?

And I’m not wrong, Libraries are provided for the public, not by the public, though the public pay the Council to provide them . If you get on a bus and pay your fare it doesn’t make you the driver.

I’m sure we’re not going to agree on this one Dude, any more than on Mary Queen of Scots, so I think we’ll have to agree to differ again!

[History dude]

The examples you give Bayleaf are quite correct for volunteers being brought into public service bodies. For many years on the Manor I worked as a volunteer mixing with Council workers from all sectors. Sometimes I had great sympathy for Council workers struggling to cope with issues of fairness, but at other times what they were doing was simply backing up old ways of doing things or even the wrong way of doing things. In fact of all the services local libraries are often the most geared up at getting people to volounteer for projects and for consultation with the community. The person in charge of the branch was often, with limited cash flow, able to offer meeting rooms to surport newly set up groups in the community. Of all the Council departments the local library parts are often well connected with the community and able most to work with volunteers or volountry bodies. However.... They are still a Council body....

Employees of the Council must work to the policies set up by the Council, policies that can, or could, or in some cases do, work against everything that a community might want.

So the proposed use of volounteers by Council, will incounter the same problems as you have highlited in your last post. However these issues only apply to volounteers trying to work with Council practices.

But let's say a library closed down by Council cuts could be reopened by local people, employing a mix of volunteers and ex Council Lib, staff and suffer from none of these issues. Nor would it be run for the select few as many Council workers and Councillors think would happen. In fact many council services I will argue are turning into services for certain areas. Not that I surport them, but Liberals are saying that certain areas are more favoured by the current Council.

What I do know is that when I last went into the Local Studies, I saw shelves of books small in size that with a cheap scanner I could have converted to PDF files within a few weeks. Given a website those books could be accessed without worrying about when the place was opened. And now I weep when I think that people will have just two days to view them. And the rest of the time they will sit on a shelf gathering dust!

[duckweed]

I personally am against volunteers taking over Librarians or Archivists jobs. Both these jobs require an immense amount of training. There is more to running a Library service or a Archive Service than standing at the counter

. Re Archives service I think there could be a source of income to help pay for the Archivists. Family researchers are the biggest users of the internet. Organisations like Ancestry make millions by supplying records and charging for it. The National Archives has such a service.

Volunteers could be useful to help scan and catalogue so that service would be up and running. I think using volunteers as staff is ludicrous. Its a bit like asking the hospital porter to do the operations.

Library work besides storing everything also requires restoration work etc.

In the local studies it is much like the archives and is a joint thing with the other archive staff. I would find it hard to use either without properly trained and knowlegeable staff.

[History dude]

In my experiance it would be highly qualified volounteers who would be willing to give up time to work in places like archives. For they would be staff made redundant from libraries, or those fully trained up who can't get jobs in a libraries because of funding cutts. Believe me there are many people working as volounteers who hope that doing unpaid work will land them a paid work. And that applies to all kinds of work.

[Bayleaf]

The people you describe are mostly newly qualified people who can't find a post, but want to build up relevant experience for their CV, or who are returning to work after a period and want to do the same. Do you really believe that the Council could make an archivist or librarian or anyone else redundant, then suggest they come back as a volunteer to do the same work unpaid and not get a rude reply? You're getting to sound like David Cameron and Co!