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Oldest Living Tree In Sheffield Area

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I'm just wondering what and where is the oldest living tree in Sheffield? There's a few big oaks near where I live at the top of Gleadless Valley, one MASSIVE one on Constable Road, which must be at least 300 years old! But I certain there will be one older somewhere.

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There's an ancient yew tree near Thrift House, Bents Green that is believed to be over 800 years old.

According to experts many oak trees in the Sheffield area are much older than they appear. It's believed the pollution from industry significantly reduced their rate of growth, meaning that normal measures to estimate age are skewed.

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There's an ancient yew tree near Thrift House, Bents Green that is believed to be over 800 years old.

According to experts many oak trees in the Sheffield area are much older than they appear. It's believed the pollution from industry significantly reduced their rate of growth, meaning that normal measures to estimate age are skewed.

Thanks for that.

I'll try and get a photo of the oak on Constable, when it stops raining!

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There's an ancient yew tree near Thrift House, Bents Green that is believed to be over 800 years old.

According to experts many oak trees in the Sheffield area are much older than they appear. It's believed the pollution from industry significantly reduced their rate of growth, meaning that normal measures to estimate age are skewed.

To test this you would have to chop it down and "count the rings"

There would be a lot of rings (1 per year) but they would be tightly packed if the growth was stunted by local pollution.

However chopping the tree down would kill it and I am sure that there are laws that prohibit the felling of still living ancient trees.

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Take a core from it using a giant ancient-tree-apple-corer (B&Q, £15.99) and carbon date it, or, if very, very old, use Uranium 238; or as an alternative see if anyone has engraved "Come on you Lilywhites" into the bark - if so, it's not only old but has walked triffid-style from Preston at some point.

Just a thought(s).

I'll get mi' coat ...

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However chopping the tree down would kill it and I am sure that there are laws that prohibit the felling of still living ancient trees.

I have heard that if you chop down an Oak tree they would throw away the key or just about ;-)

You don't need to chop trees down to kill them sometimes. For example if you cut through the "tap root" of a Sycamore the tree dies. This used to happen a lot when paths were dug up. Now the services diggers (water, gas etc) have been trained not to do this.

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It is indeed possible to take a 'core' using the equivalent of a giant apple corer! Dendrochronology is extremely useful and can provide amazingly accurate results. For accuracy however, the sample needs to include the outer bark.

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I have heard that if you chop down an Oak tree they would throw away the key or just about ;-)

Quite right too History Dude.

The oak is our National tree and yet we have almost systematically denuded our land of it for one reason or another.

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Take a core from it using a giant ancient-tree-apple-corer (B&Q, £15.99) and carbon date it, or, if very, very old, use Uranium 238; or as an alternative see if anyone has engraved "Come on you Lilywhites" into the bark - if so, it's not only old but has walked triffid-style from Preston at some point.

Just a thought(s).

I'll get mi' coat ...

Taking a core sample is an alternative.

Some trees take to this better than others, some being hardly affected at all, some being eventually killed by it.

It would take a skilled tree surgeon to do a core sample without damaging the tree permenantly.

Carbon dating cannot be used on living material only dead material, and it would only reveal the approximate year of death of the tree, not it's age at death.

Radioactive 14-carbon is formed in the upper atmosphere by solar radiation interactions. It becomes 14-carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and then takes part in a wide variety of photosynthesis, respiration and food chain interactions which means that all living things contain a certain amount of radioactive 14-carbon.

Living things are taking in 14-carbon all the time, and the 14-carbon is undergoing radioactive decay at a fixed rate. as a result all living things contain a fairly constant equilibrium amount of 14 carbon.

When the living thing dies it no longer takes in 14-carbon, but the 14-carbon it already contains continues to undergo radioactive decay at the same fixed rate (It's radioactive half life is about 5400 years)

By comparing the amount of 14-C in a dead sample to the amount in all living samples the time since death can be calculated.

14-carbon dating has given valuable evidence such as the age of dinosaur bones, the age of Egyptian mummies (so fixing their dynasty) and also some interesting facts such as.

The skull of Piltdown Man (not all of which is human) is an elaborate hoax and some of the bones in it are only a couple of hundred years old.

The Shroud of Turin, thought to be the burial shroud of Christ is also a hoax, the material dating back to about 1350

But, the Dead Sea scrolls, found in 1948 and containing original script of several books from the Old Testament are genuine, dating to around 800BCE

I dont see how, for a tree, 238-Uranium can be used. Yes the half life is massive but a tree would not contain Uranium to any extent and its level would not drop much in historic time. However it could be used to date rocks in geological time eras. 238-U is too stable. 235-U is the well known radioactive isotope, used in the first atomic bombs and nuclear power stations.

Isn't "Lillywhites" a sportswear shop in London?

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The Shroud of Turin, thought to be the burial shroud of Christ is also a hoax, the material dating back to about 1350.

Actually it's not at all clear that it does date to 1350. Since the sample taken for the test could have become contaminted at some point, because it was taken from an area that was damaged. I did see a textile expert saying that the material could in fact date to the time of christ. However one should not read anything in to the Shroud, as the proccess that produced the image is natural. It could however mean that there was someone called Jesus who was executed in that way, as the other evidence of the man's life is just not there.

The church however are currently not willing to give a better sample of the cloth so the actual date of the Shroud is still open to question.

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Howay, you Prestonianers" would sound daft.

Isn't "Lillywhites" a sportswear shop in London?

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Check the expiry date of the library ticket - easy really.

Actually it's not at all clear that it does date to 1350.

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Actually it's not at all clear that it does date to 1350. Since the sample taken for the test could have become contaminted at some point, because it was taken from an area that was damaged. I did see a textile expert saying that the material could in fact date to the time of christ. However one should not read anything in to the Shroud, as the proccess that produced the image is natural. It could however mean that there was someone called Jesus who was executed in that way, as the other evidence of the man's life is just not there.

The church however are currently not willing to give a better sample of the cloth so the actual date of the Shroud is still open to question.

I'm not going to get involved in another of those "scientific evidence v peoples beliefs" arguments with you again History Dude.

But,

14-C dating clearly and repeatedly indicated a date around 1350 (give or take about 30 years) and it is a very reliable technique.

Contamination of the sample would not alter the 14-C content unless it was contaminented with dead organic matter from a different time period, - in this case that would have to be a more modern fabric than the one expected (1350 years more modern in fact).

Then again,

I do agree with you however that the process which produced the image was natural and can easily be recreated to produce forgeries.

When I was a student at university many years ago I had long hair (as was fashionable then) and many of my friends called me "Jesus" as I looked like the image on the shroud, - so I could quite easily have produced a 1970's copy of it myself. The image could be of anybody.

The fact that the Church of Rome are unwilling to submit a further sample for analysis, are disputing the 1350 date and are getting "experts" to say it could date from the time of Christ says a lot as they have an axe to grind, it is after all one of their "Holy Relics"

Remember in history they also denied that the Sun was the centre of Solar system and persecuted the scientist who had evidence to the contrary.

To my "scientist" mind on the shroud,-

The material almost certainly dates to around 1350, - with a high probability of that being correct.

The image on the shroud could have been made at any time after that up until it was publically displayed with the image, so I suspect the image is from the medieval period.

As the fabric and it's image both post date the life of Christ, ....

..well, you draw your own conclusions.

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Check the expiry date of the library ticket - easy really.

Well, if the Shroud of Turin had a label on it saying "Marks & Spencers" that would sort of indicate that it was a forgery wouldn't it? :unsure:

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It's not a belief thing at all. What I saw on TV were people like yourself men of science and experts in their fields. That TV programme said the sample taken for the test was taken from a damaged area that was damaged in the 14th Century. The same scientists also could not reproduce the image in the way that is found on the Shroud, after many trys. Everyone who has tried to reproduce the image has seen on it has failed. An expert on fabrics of the time of Christ said the material used in the Shroud does indeed date from the time and could not be produced in the 14th Century. There is also an historical trail that leads it and other artifacts back to the middle east. The nail holes are in the same place as would be done by a Roman execution. The 14th Century depictions of Christ's execution all show them in the wrong place, so that sort of scuppers the idea of the fake being done then.

A scientist would therefore draw the conclusion that nothing is proven without further tests.

In any case all it would prove that man perhaps called Jesus was executed by the romans in the way stated in the bible. Nothing more. The marks on it being caused by bacteria and sweat and blood and the enviorment it was in.

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It's not a belief thing at all. What I saw on TV were people like yourself men of science and experts in their fields. That TV programme said the sample taken for the test was taken from a damaged area that was damaged in the 14th Century. The same scientists also could not reproduce the image in the way that is found on the Shroud, after many trys. Everyone who has tried to reproduce the image has seen on it has failed. An expert on fabrics of the time of Christ said the material used in the Shroud does indeed date from the time and could not be produced in the 14th Century. There is also an historical trail that leads it and other artifacts back to the middle east. The nail holes are in the same place as would be done by a Roman execution. The 14th Century depictions of Christ's execution all show them in the wrong place, so that sort of scuppers the idea of the fake being done then.

A scientist would therefore draw the conclusion that nothing is proven without further tests.

In any case all it would prove that man perhaps called Jesus was executed by the romans in the way stated in the bible. Nothing more. The marks on it being caused by bacteria and sweat and blood and the enviorment it was in.

OK, like I said in my previous post (relevant pieces quoted below) I am not going to be drawn on this one.

We have had arguments like this before on "spirits" which got a bit out of hand and I am not going to fall out with someone over their particular stance on a subject.

However, my main reason for not being drawn into a lengthy argument on this particular issue is that it is someones belief, - the belief of the Roman Catholic Church.

I am a Christian but not Catholic, however I have the greatest respect for other peoples religious beliefs and so whatever the truth about the shroud may be I will, out of respect for Catholic church, go no further with this argument on this forum.

I'm not going to get involved in another of those "scientific evidence v peoples beliefs" arguments with you again History Dude.

..well, you draw your own conclusions.

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I respect you not wanting to debate the issue. I was mearly stating that the age of the Shroud is open to question on science grounds. Nothing more. End of debate.

Now them trees....

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To get back on topic, which is actually about the oldest living tree in the Sheffield area, here is a question to which History Dude may well know the answer as it is in his area of expertise (The Sheffield Deer Park and Sheffield Manor).

I don't know the answer.

Manor Top was once known as "Elm Tree"

There is still a now closed down pub there who's name bears testament to this

Also, in my younger days, many buses to Manor Top said "Elm Tree" on the front instead of Manor Top.

So, the questions are, -

Was there an actual Elm Tree at Manor Top at one time?

Where exactly was it located?

What happened to it? Was it cut down? Died?

When was the tree removed?

How long was the Elm tree actually there?, as the name of the area seems very old and of course persists to some extent to the present day.

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Good question!

Firstly the road that the pub is on did not come into being till the 1779 Turnpike act for making the road. Prior to that there would have been no Elm Tree Hill. Indeed most of the references to that area refer to the hill been called Hutterhill. The fields on the topside of the road (where Manor Library is) where called Hutterhill meadows.

The first reference to the pub dates to around 1839 when a local shopkeeper and shoemaker was selling beer there. This clearly could have been no later than 1830 when the Beerhouse Act came in. Under that act our Joseph would have had to pay 3 guineas before he could sell his "home made" beer. That act was introduced to stop the selling of gin, which had reached epidemic levels. There's a famous picture by Hogarth called Gin Lane which shows how bad it was.

The directory for 1839 lists it as Elm Tree Hill. So it's unlikely the pub gave it's name to that.

The ground the pub was on was part of the Stone Hurst wood. An ancient bit of woodland from Sheffield Park. This covered most of the upper manor. It was famous for it's Holly trees, which must have spreaded outside the Park as there is still the Hollinsend area today. Sheffield's own Hollywood :)

These trees where pollarded to give food for Deer and Animals in the winter months. This made them look like the trees in fairy-book stories!

And yes there was an Elm Tree! It stood outside the pub and was still there up to just before the war, according to my Aunt. She says it was in front of the two bay windows. It had one of those circular benches around it.

I don't know what happened to it.

The pub itself was often modernised and enlarged especially in the 1920's when the Manor Estate was built. This was because the Council would not let them put public houses on the estate, or any estates come to that. The Manor didn't get a pub itself till 1939!

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The ground the pub was on was part of the Stone Hurst wood. An ancient bit of woodland from Sheffield Park. This covered most of the upper manor. It was famous for it's Holly trees, which must have spreaded outside the Park as there is still the Hollinsend area today. Sheffield's own Hollywood :)

Hollinsend, Hollybank, these are common names on the Intake where I currently live, all relating to Holly.

Perhaps I should have some very large white letters that spell out HOLLYWOOD made and have them put up at the highest point, at Manor Top just above the Elm Tree. lol

...and then go back to making films again <_<

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And yes there was an Elm Tree! It stood outside the pub and was still there up to just before the war, according to my Aunt. She says it was in front of the two bay windows. It had one of those circular benches around it.

I don't know what happened to it.

Now you have said that i am sure I have seen a picture of the Elm Tree with that tree somewhere.

Not sure where though, - a book possibly, or Picture Sheffield perhaps.

It just all sounds vaguely familiar. :huh:

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These trees where pollarded to give food for Deer and Animals in the winter months. This made them look like the trees in fairy-book stories!

The trees on our street, which stand on the grass verge between the footpath and the road, are supposed to be "Pollarded" by the council every 5 years or so.

They haven't done it for years, so now the branches overhang gardens, go close to house bedroom windows, overhang the road at such low levels that tall vahicles cannot get down without catching them or knocking the smaller ones off and telephone wires (remember those, landline telephones with wires to your house from a telegraph pole?) are entangled in the overgrown trees so much that they are in danger of being pulled down.

It's about time our trees were Pollarded and made to look nice like the ones in fairy book stories.

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The pub itself was often modernised and enlarged especially in the 1920's when the Manor Estate was built. This was because the Council would not let them put public houses on the estate, or any estates come to that. The Manor didn't get a pub itself till 1939!

I suppose that sort of begs the question as to what was the first pub on the Manor estate in 1939, as there are quite a few of them.

As we have an excellent pubs section on Sheffield History I suppose the answer is on here already, somewhere.

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I suppose that sort of begs the question as to what was the first pub on the Manor estate in 1939, as there are quite a few of them.

As we have an excellent pubs section on Sheffield History I suppose the answer is on here already, somewhere.

It was the Manor Hotel, the one branded the worst by a certain paper ;-)

There's an aerial shot of the pub in 1929 on picture Sheffield, but I can't see the tree.

http://www.picturesheffield.com/frontend.php?action=zoomWindow&keywords=s12423&prevUrl=ZnJvbnRlbmQucGhwPyZrZXl3b3Jkcz1hbGwlM0JNQVRDSEVTJTNCJTI4JTVFJTdDKyUyQiUyOUFlcmlhbF9WaWV3cyUyOCUyNCU3QyslMkIlMjkmYWN0aW9uPXNlYXJjaCZwYWdlPTEw

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It was the Manor Hotel, the one branded the worst by a certain paper ;-)

There's an aerial shot of the pub in 1929 on picture Sheffield, but I can't see the tree.

http://www.picturesh...XJjaCZwYWdlPTEw

Good picture link though History Dude.

That section of the Manor estate shown on Queen Mary Road is older than I thought at 1929, - but it is the section which has recently been demolished and cleared so that those concentric oval roads centred around Fairleigh are no longer complete.

Good view of the old pit spoil on Coal Pit lane.

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