First Train Travel Sheffield To Edinburgh

[Guest johnkb]

Hi

I would like to know when the first train travelled from Sheffield to Edinburgh.

regards

John

Melbourne Australia

[RichardB]

Hi

I would like to know when the first train travelled from Sheffield to Edinburgh.

regards

John

Melbourne Australia

Not even sure how I would go about looking for that.

Work out what year railway stations opened in both places then look from there maybe ?

[Stuart0742]

Not even sure how I would go about looking for that.

Work out what year railway stations opened in both places then look from there maybe ?

I suppose you have to consider when routes and stations opened

Prior to the Midland station (1870's)opening, your choices were

• Wicker to Rotherham, then to Leeds, then not sure as the Settle and Carlisle did not open til the 1870's, perhaps to York, then upwards and onwards to the north
• Victoria to Retford thence northwards on the Great Central/Great Northern via York

After 1870 you had the chance of a through Midland Railway route via Leeds and the Settle and Carlisle from the Midland Station.

Prior to 1870 (ish) the Midland had running powers over the London & North Western via the West Coast line, not sure how you would access this route from Sheffield.

What you need is an early Bradshaws Timetable for pre 1870 (not cheap)

[Guest Unitedite]

Hi

I would like to know when the first train travelled from Sheffield to Edinburgh.

regards

John

Melbourne Australia

I suspect that DIRECT train travel [ie: travel without having to change trains at an intermediate station] did not happen [if it ever even did happen at all] until the advent of deisel locomotives, as few steam engines operating on these routes would have the capabilities of carrying enough coal for such a journey.

The East Coast Main Line, the main part of the route was built by three railway companies, each serving their own area but with the intention of linking up to form the through route that became the East Coast Main Line. From north to south they were

the North British Railway, from Edinburgh to Berwick-on-Tweed, completed in 1846,

the North Eastern Railway from Berwick-on-Tweed to Shaftholme [just north of Doncaster]; the North Eastern Railway was substantially complete in 1871 when the company combined parts of several local railways and built a section to form a direct through route, and

the Great Northern Railway from Shaftholme to Kings Cross, completed in 1850.

I do not know for sure as to when a railway was completed between Sheffield and Doncaster, but I would suspect that such a journey would have been possible by the early 1850's at the very least.

So in answer to your question, I believe that it would have been possible to travel indirectly from Sheffield to Edinburgh by 1850 at the latest and possibly even earlier than that.

[Stuart0742]

I suspect that DIRECT train travel [ie: travel without having to change trains at an intermediate station] did not happen [if it ever even did happen at all] until the advent of deisel locomotives, as few steam engines operating on these routes would have the capabilities of carrying enough coal for such a journey.

The East Coast Main Line, the main part of the route was built by three railway companies, each serving their own area but with the intention of linking up to form the through route that became the East Coast Main Line. From north to south they were

the North British Railway, from Edinburgh to Berwick-on-Tweed, completed in 1846,

the North Eastern Railway from Berwick-on-Tweed to Shaftholme [just north of Doncaster]; the North Eastern Railway was substantially complete in 1871 when the company combined parts of several local railways and built a section to form a direct through route, and

the Great Northern Railway from Shaftholme to Kings Cross, completed in 1850.

I do not know for sure as to when a railway was completed between Sheffield and Doncaster, but I would suspect that such a journey would have been possible by the early 1850's at the very least.

So in answer to your question, I believe that it would have been possible to travel indirectly from Sheffield to Edinburgh by 1850 at the latest and possibly even earlier than that.

The South Yorkshire Railway opened a route from Swinton to Doncaster in 1849, this allowed a through service by the Midland from the Wicker to Doncaster.

However it was around 1870 (ish) when the Great Central route from Woodburn through to Mexborough was completed allowing Great Central trains a direct route to Doncaster, from Sheffield Victoria.

A Bradshaws is needed for a complete answer to this question.

[Stuart0742]

The South Yorkshire Railway opened a route from Swinton to Doncaster in 1849, this allowed a through service by the Midland from the Wicker to Doncaster.

However it was around 1870 (ish) when the Great Central route from Woodburn through to Mexborough was completed allowing Great Central trains a direct route to Doncaster, from Sheffield Victoria.

A Bradshaws is need for a complete answer to this question.

You could always ask the National Railway Museum

search.engine@nrm.org.uk

They have Bradshaws going back to the 1830's

[Guest bus man]

A FEW POINTS

The fact that a steam engine would run out of coal isnt relevant the engine could be changed on the way

I suspect it would have been possible to go direct, as up untill the late 1960s there was a sleeper service from Sheffield to Glasgow (it started in London) I strongly suspect this would have carried through coaches for edinbbourgh as it went via the S&C , from what I recall from a old fireman/driver . A new crew and engine took over at Sheffield Mid , the engine was preped at Millhouses shed and then went light to Midland where it was swopped .

The Sheffield crew then lodged at Carlisle and worked the return working the same day , their engine was serviced at Carlisle and worked a service back to Sheffield during the day while they slept

It does seem incredible that a sleeper would be used to glasgow but it was very very busy as it took hours by road/ coach .

[Stuart0742]

A FEW POINTS

The fact that a steam engine would run out of coal isnt relevant the engine could be changed on the way

I suspect it would have been possible to go direct, as up untill the late 1960s there was a sleeper service from Sheffield to Glasgow (it started in London) I strongly suspect this would have carried through coaches for edinbbourgh as it went via the S&C , from what I recall from a old fireman/driver . A new crew and engine took over at Sheffield Mid , the engine was preped at Millhouses shed and then went light to Midland where it was swopped .

The Sheffield crew then lodged at Carlisle and worked the return working the same day , their engine was serviced at Carlisle and worked a service back to Sheffield during the day while they slept

It does seem incredible that a sleeper would be used to glasgow but it was very very busy as it took hours by road/ coach .

Though not mentioned in this topic, the same question has been asked on "The Other Forum" and a date of 1869 has been mentioned.

http://www.sheffield...d.php?p=7566144

This does bring the era to the time a lot of routes were still being constructed, and does not help matters.

I would say there was no direct service at this time (1869)

So another question, When did the Thames Clyde Express, or its predecessors, start, this ran via Sheffield, Leeds and the Settle and Carlisle to Scotland

[DaveH]

A FEW POINTS

The fact that a steam engine would run out of coal isnt relevant the engine could be changed on the way

Correct bus man it isn't relevant.

The engine could easily haul several bunkers of coal if needed, enough for the entire journey in one go.

What it would run out of is water, but over the years the railways have devised and used some ingenious schemes of picking up water without stopping (e.g. a scoop to lift water from a trough fitted between a section of rails with no sleepers blocking access)

I can't see how they would be able to change the engine without stopping, or even why that would be necessary as a single engine is more than capable of completing this distance in one non-stop run providing it can carry sufficient coal and water.

[Stuart0742]

Correct bus man it isn't relevant.

The engine could easily haul several bunkers of coal if needed, enough for the entire journey in one go.

What it would run out of is water, but over the years the railways have devised and used some ingenious schemes of picking up water without stopping (e.g. a scoop to lift water from a trough fitted between a section of rails with no sleepers blocking access)

I can't see how they would be able to change the engine without stopping, or even why that would be necessary as a single engine is more than capable of completing this distance in one non-stop run providing it can carry sufficient coal and water.

With perhaps 1 exception there were never non stop services on long distant routes.

It was common practice to change engines, well into diesel days. In the terms of this topic I think we are talking about direct services, ie the passenger did not change trains.

In the mid 1800's trains would stop at places like York for both engine change and a meal break for the passengers.

[DaveH]

With perhaps 1 exception there were never non stop services on long distant routes.

It was common practice to change engines, well into diesel days. In the terms of this topic I think we are talking about direct services, ie the passenger did not change trains.

In the mid 1800's trains would stop at places like York for both engine change and a meal break for the passengers.

No wonder it took so long to get anywhere then.

The early steam engine engines may have been thought of as a "mechanical horse" but there really was no need to treat them as though they were horses and needed a rest every so often.

After all steam engines in factories and mills at the same period worked incessantly without stopping for full working days.

[Stuart0742]

No wonder it took so long to get anywhere then.

The early steam engine engines may have been thought of as a "mechanical horse" but there really was no need to treat them as though they were horses and needed a rest every so often.

After all steam engines in factories and mills at the same period worked incessantly without stopping for full working days.

I don't think it was a matter of resting them, when the coal ran out they would attach a new engine and and recoal the one they took off. Water was less of a problem as this could be topped up at each stop or even en-route.

Another problem in the 18c as unitedite has pointed out was the number of different companies.

[DaveH]

I don't think it was a matter of resting them, when the coal ran out they would attach a new engine and and recoal the one they took off. Water was less of a problem as this could be topped up at each stop or even en-route.

Another problem in the 18c as unitedite has pointed out was the number of different companies.

I can see that the company issue would create these stop start and change engine problems.

Coal is usually less of a problem than water as, although it is heavy the engine can haul enough of it for the journey.

In the absence of mechanical coal feed, shifting and shovelling it becomes a problem, as the full bunkers tend to be a lot further from the firehole door. requiring a lot more work to shift it.

With road steam we always had plenty of coal but were constantly on the look out for hydrants and water points to stop and pick up water.

[Dickdioxide]

1848 via Manchester, Preston and Carlisle

http://www.brassett.org.uk/rail/sscotland.html

http://www.brassett.org.uk/rail/livman.html

1847 probable via Normanton and Newcastle as there was a temporary structure across the Tweed and some sources say that Nothallerton to Newcasle was open at this time.

"Through carriages" were common as locomotives were mostly restricted to their own companies' rails. So a journey at this time would involve using changing carriages less often than changing trains.

[Dickdioxide]

1876

Through trains or carriages could run from Sheffield to Edinburgh on the opening of the Settle and Carlisle railway line.

1927- 1968( with interruptions)

"Thames-Forth" and later the "Waverley" ran from St Pancras to Edinburgh via Sheffield.

[DaveH]

"Through carriages" were common as locomotives were mostly restricted to their own companies' rails. So a journey at this time would involve using changing carriages less often than changing trains.

Thanks Dickdioxide,

I think that more or less explains why they would change the engines causing unneccesary delays.