Jump to content

Pork Butchers


Recommended Posts

This might be complicated, hope you'll stick with me.

When I started researching my mother's paternal family - my great grandfather, Hermann Pfisterer was a Master Pork Butcher who came over from Germany probably in 1854 and settled in Rotherham - I noticed that he and some other relations of his in Bradford, Widnes and Northwich, called themselves "Pork Butchers".

Growing up in England, I only knew the term "Butcher's shop". No mention in Cheshire of Pork Butchers. The Germans, especially from the Hohenlohe district where my ancestors came from were excellent pork butchers.They used everything of the pig from the skin to the meat and the hoof and obviously found a "Niche" in Great Britain (but that's another story!).

As I remember in Cheshire, especially in our family, we didn't eat much pork meat, apart from pork sausages and pies. Lamb and beef were more popular.

So now to the crux of the matter! Did the German pork butchers persuade the British to eat more pork or did they introduce just the pork sausages, pork pies, etc.?

I love lamb, we had this a lot at home, as well as beef but not many years ago, the Swiss were cautious of it. They said it "smelled" but they were often thinking of mutton.

It might be a true thing to say that lamb was regarded in Switzerland as pork in some areas of Britain.

I would be interested in your replies as it would help me very much in contributing to a project of the German Pork Butchers in Britain.

BTW, I couldn't pronounce the pooerk until I saw someone's post on my introductory thread. I spoke it out aloud and now I can pronounce pooerk! In Swiss German it's called "schwinigs"

Thank you for any help,

Gill

Link to post
Share on other sites
Wadsleyite

Hi Gill - there were few pork butchers in England until the Germans arrived in the mid-19th century. By the turn of the century Sheffield had a coterie of pork butchers with names such as Hannemann, Kramer, Friedrich, Stier, Metzger (appropriate name for a butcher!), Schonhut, Zeiher and Funk (their shop is still in Hillsborough). I don't know if the Germans persuaded us to eat more pork - it was always a popular meat, but pork butchers provided an early form of fast food with their pies, sausages etc. and Germans were better at making such things than the English (though the latter soon caught up). Pooerk sarnies (pork sandwiches to the uninitiated) are still very popular and some of the best ones are made by Beres - a chain of pork butchers founded by the late Sandor Beres who came from Hungary in 1956.

I could just eat a slice of pork pie....

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Gill,

It was me that used the local pronunciation, pooerk, in your first topic.

I have always eaten pork as well as other cuts and parts from the pig, we love ham, gammon, bacon, pigs liver...

I much prefer pork and beef to lamb which I find rather "fatty"

Beef used to be my favourite but it fell out of favour in Britain around 20 years ago when we had trouble with BSE infection and its known connection to a human equivalent disease which destroys the brain and nervous system. I think people generally eat less of it now although I still like it and eat plenty.

Pooerk Pies I always associated with Britain anyway as a local thing, in fact some pork pies are refered to as "Melton Mowbray", named after a town in Leicestershire where they are made.

Having mentioned ham, gammon and bacon as cuts of meat connected to pork by the pig, were we really converted to eating it in large quantities by the Germans? or was it the Danish?

For many years Danish bacon was considered to be the best you could get and as a mak of quality had the word "DANISH" printed onto the rind.

As every part of the pig is used with no waste, you can't market the best pork joints without selling the other cuts as well, including the offal.

In Britain the pigs blood is used to make a black sausage like delicacy called a "black pudding".

I understand that they have something similar in Germany, along with an excellent range of pork based sausage - like products (wursts)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

I feel like a one-armed bandit!! Fell badly on my shoulder, dislocated it, broke it and tore a ligament. Op successful but i'm under "arm rest" for 6 weeks.

Just seen the above 2 posts.

Am attaching a doc. on the German PBs from Hohenlohe which explais quite a lot.

Wuestner1.pdf

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like you're had a tough time of it, Thanks for the read, most interesting and Best Wishes on the road to recovery.

Hi

I feel like a one-armed bandit!! Fell badly on my shoulder, dislocated it, broke it and tore a ligament. Op successful but i'm under "arm rest" for 6 weeks.

Just seen the above 2 posts.

Am attaching a doc. on the German PBs from Hohenlohe which explais quite a lot.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

I feel like a one-armed bandit!! Fell badly on my shoulder, dislocated it, broke it and tore a ligament. Op successful but i'm under "arm rest" for 6 weeks.

Just seen the above 2 posts.

Am attaching a doc. on the German PBs from Hohenlohe which explais quite a lot.

A very interesting read in the attached .pdf file

Thanks for that Gillmar and I hope you are soon on the road to recovery and feeling better.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, SteveHB

This list was and is extremely useful to me.

In the meantime I have found my Pfisterer ancestors in Kuenzelsau, Baden-Wuerttemberg, Germany and have at long last established the connection to my mother's "Heinzmann" cousins. John Heinzmann owned a pork butcher's shop in Northwich, Cheshire, where my grandfather subsequently settled.

Grandad Pfisterer obviously wasn't too keen on the pork butchery business and eventually set himself with a garage and taxi business.

My mother, born 1904, rode a motor-cycle at the age of 17 and I have dozens of photographs of her at the wheel of some interesting looking cars. Apparently, she bought a Citroen from the Detective Inspector in Northwich and for a while was saluted whilst driving through the town!! She married a member of the White City Team who rode a Douglas in the year approx.1930.

To get back to the subject, I now have a subscription to the British Newspaper Archives Online and the most positive searches are those of Yorkshire Pork Butchers - due to their unusual names I suppose.

One of them was accused of faulty scales, i.e. there was an ounce discrepancy but not in favour of the customer!! I think it was George Schonhut (will check and get back) who admitted it could have been an "half ounce"!!

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest KatrinaWal

What a weird coincidence, I just came onto the forum to post about my German ancestors who moved to Sheffield and were Pork Butchers!

I would love to know more about the family and more about where they came from/other ancestors.

Mine were the Kimmerer/Kammerer/Kemmerer family (I have come across many different spellings). George Kimmerer was born in 1830 in Wuttemberg, Germany and his wife Mary in 1939 in Wuttemberg, Germany. I do not know when they were married but I guess they were married before they came over. However in 1864 they had their first child Caroline Kimmerer in Sheffield. They had another daughter in 1866 - Mary Ellen Kimmerer (this is my gg-grandmother) who went on to marry an Albert Thomas Lees. If anyone could point me in the direction to find more information about them either in regards to the occupation as Pork Butcher or where I could find out more about them moving here or life prior in Germany I would be very grateful. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just done some research for someone about German Pork Butchers in Sheffield. The family he wa following is Louis Hiller/ Hillier

I will send him a link to the thread as he may very well be interested. I found a great story in the British Library Newspapers Archives about him and a robbery. Well he denied it all but that's another story! :ph34r: he he

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest bullerboy

The german pork butcher that I am researching is from Kunzelsau nr.Oehringen Baden-Wurtenberg,I have many friends in this area including the Landsrat (President) and have sent all the information that loish and wadsleyite have obtained for me.His name is Louis Hiller.Another which I spotted in a book donated by wadsleyite is called Georg Muller from Obermossolderbach nr Oehringen and by shear coincidence is one of my best friend's relatives and we are looking into that as well.I will keep you updated.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My Pfisterer family are from Künzelsau. It is the district town for the area and when applying for allowance to emigrate to abroad, i.e. UK, USA, etc. this town was often quoted. It did not mean that the applicant was born there - he might have been born in one of the villages under the jurisdiction of Künzelsau.

My Pfisterer family are from Künzelsau itself. My g-grandfather's father was a tanner.

Luckily my gt-grandmother stated her place of birth of Kocherstetten (bridge over the Kocher (Avatar).

Unfortunately, although I applaud their voluntary work, the transcriptions are very misleading. I don't think that if I still lived in England, I would have been able to suss out my grandmother's surname. It was transcribed as Pirk and after much searching, the marriage certificate gave her name as Brink. Î had luck, her first born emigrated from England to America and became one of Iowa, des Moines, prominent citizens. Only the mention of his birth place, Rotherham, and the mention of his mother, Margaretha Breuk made me switch the e and u around and come up with Brueck (Brück). The Baden-Württembergers pronounce the Brueck as "Brick".

Family Search had the Bruecks who orignated from Unterregenbach on their website but I couldn't identify them. Only the help from a friend in that area made me realise they were mine.

I have spent quite a bit of time these last few days, correcting German names on Ancestry but it's like a drop in the ocean.

The town of Künzelsau is one of the worst transcribed towns in Baden-Württemberg!

One help is the "burg" is often transcribed as "bury". Apparently whoever writes the name ending in berg, transcribes or (as enumerator) writes it as "bury". Also the n and the u are often "crossed over" as in the name "Bauer". This is often transcrbed as "Baner".

Link to post
Share on other sites

We probably need you to read the Bacon Robbery topic Gillmar - butchers from Germany and lots and lots of stolen pig-bits ... needs a knowledgeable person and not an idiot (i.e. me) to pass comment please.

My Pfisterer family are from Künzelsau. It is the district town for the area and when applying for allowance to emigrate to abroad, i.e. UK, USA, etc. this town was often quoted. It did not mean that the applicant was born there - he might have been born in one of the villages under the jurisdiction of Künzelsau.

My Pfisterer family are from Künzelsau itself. My g-grandfather's father was a tanner.

Luckily my gt-grandmother stated her place of birth of Kocherstetten (bridge over the Kocher (Avatar).

Unfortunately, although I applaud their voluntary work, the transcriptions are very misleading. I don't think that if I still lived in England, I would have been able to suss out my grandmother's surname. It was transcribed as Pirk and after much searching, the marriage certificate gave her name as Brink. Î had luck, her first born emigrated from England to America and became one of Iowa, des Moines, prominent citizens. Only the mention of his birth place, Rotherham, and the mention of his mother, Margaretha Breuk made me switch the e and u around and come up with Brueck (Brück). The Baden-Württembergers pronounce the Brueck as "Brick2.

Family Search had the Bruecks who orignated from Unterregenbach on their website but I couldn't identify them. Only the help from a friend in that area made me realise they were mine.

I have spent quite a bit of time these last few days, correcting German names but it's like a drop in the ocean.

The town of Künzelsau is one of the worst transcribed towns in Baden-Württemberg!

One help is the "burg" is often transcribed as "bury". Apparently whoever writes the name ending in berg, transcribes or (as enumerator) writes it as "bury". Also the n and the u are often "crossed over" as in the name "Bauer". This is often transcrbed as "Baner".

Link to post
Share on other sites

RichardB,

I have also been reading the "British Newspaper Archives Online". Maybe I'm thick but the most success I've had is by putting in German Pork Butcher names.

One German PB, forgotten his name, owned a homing pigeon. This was confiscated and destroyed. The year was, after all, 1915!!! Think what you will!!

There have been a number of breaches of promises by the German Pork Butchers, plus (not their fault) pork stolen from their shop. My own relation Louisa Pfisterer Lindenburger faced and chased a thief in her shop in Bradford.

One drunken Pork butcher by the name of Oetzel chased a policeman down the street with an axe but kept hitting the pavement instead of the cop.

Off topic: Singular answer:

Asked why she had married her husband, a woman answered that she had rheumatism in her knees and the husband-to-be lived in a dry house!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

This robbery dates to the 1850's - hence the request for more expert eyes.

RichardB,

I have also been reading the "British Newspaper Archives Online". Maybe I'm thick but the most success I've had is by putting in German Pork Butcher names.

One German PB, forgotten his name, owned a homing pigeon. This was confiscated and destroyed. The year was, after all, 1915!!! Think what you will!!

There have been a number of breaches of promises by the German Pork Butchers, plus (not their fault) pork stolen from their shop. My own relation Louisa Pfisterer Lindenburger faced and chased a thief in her shop in Bradford.

One drunken Pork butcher by the name of Oetzel chased a policeman down the street with an axe but kept hitting the pavement instead of the cop.

Off topic: Singular answer:

Asked why she had married her husband, a woman answered that she had rheumatism in her knees and the husband-to-be lived in a dry house!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have spent quite a bit of time these last few days, correcting German names on Ancestry but it's like a drop in the ocean.

The town of Künzelsau is one of the worst transcribed towns in Baden-Württemberg!

One help is the "burg" is often transcribed as "bury". Apparently whoever writes the name ending in berg, transcribes or (as enumerator) writes it as "bury". Also the n and the u are often "crossed over" as in the name "Bauer". This is often transcrbed as "Baner".

Even without the spelling issue, I would be struggling to place that pair of dots (umlaut??) over the letter u and would have to leave it as Kunzelsau.

As English does not use accented letters like German and French do they seem to be unavailable on the keyboard of an "English" computer, - although they computer is quite clearly capable of displaying characters from any language, - even eastern ones which do not even use our alphabet set.

The problem isn't displaying these special characters, it is typing them in.

Is there a special "German font" for example that we could use?

Or is there a "hidden code" like to get this character press CTRL - ALT - U (In Britain we have do something like this just to display the Euro currenct symbol)

Or, do you need a computer with a "German keyboard" that already has keys with these characters on?

Link to post
Share on other sites

There mustbe a code e.g. ALT-156 (on numeric keypad) gives a £-sign. ASCII (American Standard Code for Information Interchange), invented 1932 by Arthur Askey the Happy Little Bumble Bee ... probably.

Even without the spelling issue, I would be struggling to place that pair of dots (umlaut??) over the letter u and would have to leave it as Kunzelsau.

As English does not use accented letters like German and French do they seem to be unavailable on the keyboard of an "English" computer, - although they computer is quite clearly capable of displaying characters from any language, - even eastern ones which do not even use our alphabet set.

The problem isn't displaying these special characters, it is typing them in.

Is there a special "German font" for example that we could use?

Or is there a "hidden code" like to get this character press CTRL - ALT - U (In Britain we have do something like this just to display the Euro currenct symbol)

Or, do you need a computer with a "German keyboard" that already has keys with these characters on?

Link to post
Share on other sites

There mustbe a code e.g. ALT-156 (on numeric keypad) gives a £-sign. ASCII (American Standard Code for Information Interchange), invented 1932 by Arthur Askey the Happy Little Bumble Bee ... probably.

The ALT-156 is just the sort of thing I meant Richard, - we have to use something like that to get the Euro sign, and presumably other currency symbols are possible as well.

However, being an "English Language" keyboard on our computers we don't a fanct way to get the £ symbol, or even the $ symbol as they are the "upper case" of the numeric 3 and 4 keys respectively.

I am assuming that a "German keyboard" would have the Euro symbol as standard and may require an ALT-*** code to acces £ and / or $ instead.

A German keyboard may come with accented letters, and that unusual letter in German that transles as "ss" as standard as well, that was really what my enquiry directed towards our European members was all about really.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Where there is a ü as in Künzelsau, you can type ue = Kuenzelsau, ö oe, ä ae. Will ask my husband as I think he helped someone with this.

On a lighter note, I was searching pork butchers and came across this:

Occupation: Park butcher and savager maker :rolleyes:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I've been talking through my hat again. Toni doesn't know of any other method than described above.

We have only £ and $ signs on our keyboards. In German you can use "ss" instead of the long "s" or whatever it's called in Germany.

In Switzerland we only use "ss" and not the "long s". We don't have an Euro sign on our keyboards so we do as you mentioned but Alt + E.

But as said Kuenzelsau, Aepfeln (apples) oeffnen are acceptable instead of Äpfeln or öffnen.

Here is a link to a site where you can type in the umlauts and copy your text to email or whatever:

http://german.typeit.org/

Link to post
Share on other sites

Where there is a ü as in Künzelsau, you can type ue = Kuenzelsau, ö oe, ä ae. Will ask my husband as I think he helped someone with this.

On a lighter note, I was searching pork butchers and came across this:

Occupation: Park butcher and savager maker :rolleyes:

Seems a suitable work around the accent problem but I suspect it would still look wrong to someone whose native language is German.

I translate that as being

PORK butcher abd SAUSAGE maker ;-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

We have only £ and $ signs on our keyboards. In German you can use "ss" instead of the long "s" or whatever it's called in Germany.

In Switzerland we only use "ss" and not the "long s". We don't have an Euro sign on our keyboards so we do as you mentioned but Alt + E.

Here is a link to a site where you can type in the umlauts and copy your text to email or whatever:

http://german.typeit.org/

Very interesting GillMar,

European keyboards allow direct use of £ and $ but not the Euro symbol, - so you can type "foreign" currencies, but not the one you actually use!! :blink:

Do you have a Swiss Franc symbol? Or is it just SF? Or is there yet another ALT - code to get it?

I think the long s (ss) in German is called an effset, but I may be wrong, - I didn't actually do German at school, only French

Useful link to effectively get a "German keyboard".

Perhaps there should be more resources like this now that the Internet has made us all truely International and more aware of other languages.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The international currency symbol for Swiss Francs is CHF.

Maybe the German keyboards have a Euro sign on them as do other European countries who have converted to Euro.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The international currency symbol for Swiss Francs is CHF.

Maybe the German keyboards have a Euro sign on them as do other European countries who have converted to Euro.

I thought on European computers they would have the $ sign on numeric 4 like we do, being as computers and the whole finance of the World seems to be American based, but while British computers have the £ sign on numeric 3 they had the € instead.

By the way, € is alt gr (key to the right of the space bar) followed by the number 4, - so same key as $

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...