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Guest plain talker

Thanks plaintalker.

You learn something every day, - I am now fully qualified after your short course, to be able to identify a Finnegan or Vic Hallam prefab at 100 paces.

LOLOLOLOL.

well, I'm definitely full of information. Sadly, most of it useless... hehehe

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LOLOLOLOL.

well, I'm definitely full of information. Sadly, most of it useless... hehehe

Hi - just to add a bit more "useless" information to your debate. I lived in a Vic Hallam house on Park Grange Road right opposite what used to be the Old Peoples Home (thats probably not PC any more, but that is what we called it then) - dont know what the building is now. Our house had a through lounge, smaller kitchen and cloak room to the left of the inside of the front door and by "cloak room" I mean in the true sense of the word - just a place to hang coats! I can remember a fire breaking out at one of the Vic Hallam's to the right of the building across the road - probably the second block on, the house nearest to the road where the tram passes now. I find it very interesting what has been said about the construction, because the house seemed to burn really quickly and what was left after the fire service had done their duty, was the external fabrication and what looked like sheets of silver paper hanging from the internal walls. Anyway, that was enough to put my mother off and we swiftly moved up the hill to live on Northern Avenue in an older but more "well constructed" house!!

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Hi - just to add a bit more "useless" information to your debate. I lived in a Vic Hallam house on Park Grange Road right opposite what used to be the Old Peoples Home (thats probably not PC any more, but that is what we called it then) - dont know what the building is now. Our house had a through lounge, smaller kitchen and cloak room to the left of the inside of the front door and by "cloak room" I mean in the true sense of the word - just a place to hang coats! I can remember a fire breaking out at one of the Vic Hallam's to the right of the building across the road - probably the second block on, the house nearest to the road where the tram passes now. I find it very interesting what has been said about the construction, because the house seemed to burn really quickly and what was left after the fire service had done their duty, was the external fabrication and what looked like sheets of silver paper hanging from the internal walls. Anyway, that was enough to put my mother off and we swiftly moved up the hill to live on Northern Avenue in an older but more "well constructed" house!!

Yes we called it the old folks home. I think that is still what it is but it has been done up / rebuilt and looks totally different.

If you think it not PC to call it the old peoples home then you may remember further along Park Grange Road on the same side, somewhere between the underpass / Guildford tower blocks and the rent office / Fellbrigg was another institution which cared for mainly young people with quite severe mental handicaps. i can't tell you what we used to call that.

I can't remember the fire you refer to but the description of its location appears to be Brimmersfield Close.

The main construction internally was wood so would burn very quickly but the outer walls would have to be more robust and weatherproof and carried that heavier cladding. plaintalker says the houses were quite warm so they must have been well insulated. I suspect that is what all that silver foil was, = heat reflecting material to prevent heat loss. The original asbestos prefabs were insulated with dried straw in a the cavity between 2 asbestos panels.

It seems from another thread that you are an ex Norfolk School student (notice I say student, not pupil, I say that for a reason lollol ) and if you lived on Park Grange Road and on Northern Avenue (I used to live on Eastern Avenue in my school days) it is likely our paths may have crossed some time in the past.

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Guest plain talker

The fatal wheelie-bin fire on Jordanthorpe, a couple of years ago (3? 4 years now?) was also in a VH house. Part of the problem with the fires was the timbered construction.

I suspect you are right that the silver foil was part of the insulation.

The old-folks' home became "The Foyer", a collection of bedsit type flats for young homeless people... a sort of resettlement unit..

I did some work experience there, when it was an old-folks' home.

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I would have put Paddock farm further west than Errington, nearer Arbourthorne Road (and nearer the present day paddock crescent).

The Errington road I had in mind (on map 70) now seems to have been renamed to Berners place. Comparing the 1950s map with that of 1906 the area between Arbourthorne road and Berners place seems about the right position, - the only remaining common reference points are the source of the boundary stream and the footpath along the top of Buck Wood.

I'd be interested if you do find any evidence of a stream from Myrtle Springs to the Meers Brook. The contour lines don't support the idea but there is evidence of a possible stream running from Myrtle springs to the Shire Brook. A succession of 'kinks' (sometimes quite shallow) in the contours is the usual indicator even if the stream has been entirley culverted or the source dried up....

and on map 70 the irregular field boundaries to the east of Myrtle springs suggest they were originally aligned to a stream.

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The Errington road I had in mind (on map 70) now seems to have been renamed to Berners place. Comparing the 1950s map with that of 1906 the area between Arbourthorne road and Berners place seems about the right position, - the only remaining common reference points are the source of the boundary stream and the footpath along the top of Buck Wood.

I'd be interested if you do find any evidence of a stream from Myrtle Springs to the Meers Brook. The contour lines don't support the idea but there is evidence of a possible stream running from Myrtle springs to the Shire Brook. A succession of 'kinks' (sometimes quite shallow) in the contours is the usual indicator even if the stream has been entirley culverted or the source dried up....

and on map 70 the irregular field boundaries to the east of Myrtle springs suggest they were originally aligned to a stream.

yes, that this road was named Errington Road is rather odd, although I do seem to remember on old maps, that the junction of Arbourthorne road, and berners road was where Berners finished, prior to the prefabs, and the top section of what is now Berners Road (all Finnegan houses up to the junction with East Bank Road) was named Errington Road.

Looking at that map, the Errington Road section shown must have been all the 1940's prefabs. (My parents' house is on the very junction of Arbourthorne Road, and the finnegans behind were built on the sites of the old prefabs.

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The Errington road I had in mind (on map 70) now seems to have been renamed to Berners place. Comparing the 1950s map with that of 1906 the area between Arbourthorne road and Berners place seems about the right position, - the only remaining common reference points are the source of the boundary stream and the footpath along the top of Buck Wood.

I'd be interested if you do find any evidence of a stream from Myrtle Springs to the Meers Brook. The contour lines don't support the idea but there is evidence of a possible stream running from Myrtle springs to the Shire Brook. A succession of 'kinks' (sometimes quite shallow) in the contours is the usual indicator even if the stream has been entirley culverted or the source dried up....

and on map 70 the irregular field boundaries to the east of Myrtle springs suggest they were originally aligned to a stream.

Strange place that Errington Road as it is not the current Errington Road which runs from Eastern Avenue to East Bank Road and is the road which the old Carlton Cinema and the Arbourthorne Hotel are on, this is a hundred or so yards northeast of the Errington Road on the older map.

However, comparing the 2 maps I am convinced you have the correct site of Paddock Farm.

The steepest landfall from Myrtle Spring is towards Meers Brook and I seem to remember when you could see the stream near the Toll Bar Road area and the 2 ponds (about 25 years ago) the general direction of the stream was towards the steep landfall into Meers Brook.

However I take your points and evidence on board. All of them seem valid and the contour map even has a dotted line going away, at the correct kinks in the contours, towards Shire Brook.

This certainly merits further investigation.

One problem I am now having is locating the exact points in the real, modern world where these streams flow. It was fairly easy for the Jervis lum due to the buildings avoiding the course of the stream and the shape and lay of the ponds etc.

But can I even locate from the contour map the source of both Meers and Shire brooks?

Not the easiest of tasks.

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OK...back on topic - from the 1850s map it can be seen there were two streams which converged in Jervis Lum, the combined stream then continued north towards Norfolk Cottage (later known as Norfolk Lodge), where it seems to have gone underground. It's possible the stream was used to feed the small lake in the farm grounds. The ancient stream beds appear to have formed some of the field boundaries at the bottom of the map.

I think I may have located the little sidestream that joins the Jervis Lum just outside Norfolk Park, close to where it is fenced off for the steep valley which is crossed by the Jervis lum bridge.

The sidestream can be located because there is another area of land which has never been built on and again frequently gets muddy.

This area runs up between Beldon Drive and Samuel Road (it used to have a funny sort of childrens playground on it behind the Beldon road tower block)

On crossing under Park Grange Road there is another unbuilt muddy area between Park Grange Road and the back of the houses on the Arbourthorne on Fellbrigg Road, this continues up Kenninghall Road towards Eastern Drive but at this point due to no buildings on the Black Bank which drops down to East Bank Road the course is lost. It is a high point here (the old Kenninghall tower blocks possibly being the highest of the Norfolk Park tower blocks, - Highest NOT tallest!) buut it is not the highest point.

Interestingly the contour map shows the stream quite short so it could have its source here , but the 1850's map shows it much longer penetrating further into the Arbourthorne.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi - just to add a bit more "useless" information to your debate. I lived in a Vic Hallam house on Park Grange Road right opposite what used to be the Old Peoples Home (thats probably not PC any more, but that is what we called it then) - dont know what the building is now. Our house had a through lounge, smaller kitchen and cloak room to the left of the inside of the front door and by "cloak room" I mean in the true sense of the word - just a place to hang coats! I can remember a fire breaking out at one of the Vic Hallam's to the right of the building across the road - probably the second block on, the house nearest to the road where the tram passes now. I find it very interesting what has been said about the construction, because the house seemed to burn really quickly and what was left after the fire service had done their duty, was the external fabrication and what looked like sheets of silver paper hanging from the internal walls. Anyway, that was enough to put my mother off and we swiftly moved up the hill to live on Northern Avenue in an older but more "well constructed" house!!

The "old peoples home" as it is today

Would the fire you are talking of have been in one of these houses then?

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The "old peoples home" as it is today

Would the fire you are talking of have been in one of these houses then?

Dave, many thanks for posting the photos. I lived directly opposite the first photo. lol

As for your 2nd photo, if that is the 2nd block along from the "home", then it was the house nearest the road, so it would be the one thats a different colour.

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Dave, many thanks for posting the photos. I lived directly opposite the first photo. lol

As for your 2nd photo, if that is the 2nd block along from the "home", then it was the house nearest the road, so it would be the one thats a different colour.

That's Brimmersfield Close.

Interesting choice of house, I used to know the Bowden family that lived there in the 1970's. As far as I know they still do!

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The name was changed because mail was being misdirected. Mail intended for the houses at the City Road end was being sent to the other end of Arbourthorne Road and vice versa. At the same time (late 1940's -early 1950's), the City had begun planning the Norfolk Park development and had already decide that the two parts of Arbourthorne Road would never be directly connected.

There has been qute a bit of discussion about wet ground but nobody has mention fires or to be more accurate, spotaneous combustion. In really hot weather, you could occasionally smoke rising from the hillside. The fire brigade would make periodic visits to make sure it wasnt too serious. This would be in the general area where Park Grange Road and St Adians Road now meet. Thats not too far way from Deep Pits and we all know where the area got its name from.

This is "the smouldering tip" as it is today.

No more fires and a football pitch on it which is great for a Sunday morning match.

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  • 3 weeks later...

That's Brimmersfield Close.

Interesting choice of house, I used to know the Bowden family that lived there in the 1970's. As far as I know they still do!

Actually, its the third row of houses from the home so the one you want faces the one in the picture and is off the left hand side.

I don't know who lived there.

Bottom of first row, Metrick family, second row no idea, third row Bowden family.

The burnt out house is still there and has patched up so well you can't tell that there has ever been a fire there

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  • 3 weeks later...

On the other side of East Bank Road there are no buildings, just open field again. There has been no housing here since the last asbestos prefabricated housing was removed in 1966. However in recent years this strange industrial looking unit has appeared. Anyone got any ideas what it is?

Apparently they are "Arbourthorne Externals" whatever that's supposed to mean :blink:

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Apparently they are "Arbourthorne Externals" whatever that's supposed to mean :blink:

They may have been "Arbourthorne Externals" LAST WEEK

But this week they have cleared the site and gone.

Never did find out what they did, - perhaps they've gone because they knew I was on to them! lol

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They may have been "Arbourthorne Externals" LAST WEEK

But this week they have cleared the site and gone.

Never did find out what they did, - perhaps they've gone because they knew I was on to them! lol

I wonder if the disappearance of this unit is in any way connected with other work taking place in this area, - the Finnegan houses (not Vic Hallams) on Errington seen beyond the works site in this picture are currently being demolished.

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The Buck Wood / Paddock farm stream is very clear on the map as you say.

However the Myrtle Spring stream is further east, - delow the st in the Sheffield hiSTory watermark. The area here is actually marked as Myrtle Springs. It has 2 small ponds which still exist, now in the middle of a modern housing estate and are pictured in the "Myrtle Springs" bit of the linked thread on work houses.

The "Myrtle Springs" stream can be made out as a line which runs between but not through the 2 ponds, an area which was once a small wooded area on had a small orchard. This line is easily found as someone has continued it off the bottom of the map with a pencil and al;so added some "proposed" roads also just off the map area.

There are several of these streams that run down the steep bank into the Gleadless Valley and join Meers Brook which flows through the valley. I had thought that Myrtle Spring was the largest of these as it is well known and the others don't seem to be known about but clearly from the map it is the Buck Wood boundary stream which is the major one.

Perhaps I need another photographic expedition to try and find it, - and the other collection of small streams on the map.

I would have put Paddock farm further west than Errington, nearer Arbourthorne Road (and nearer the present day paddock crescent).

The farm marked ruins is on the other side of Gleadless Road and so is technically in Gleadless, - I wonder if Pauline Shearstone has any mention of it in her definitive works on this area? I will try to find out.

Some of the houses on Paddock Crescent and the Berners do not have the same style and appearance as the typical Arbourthorne 1930's Sheffield council house.

Are these buildings, due to their location, in any way connected with the farm in question. The location is as good as a guesstimate would give.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I wonder if the disappearance of this unit is in any way connected with other work taking place in this area, - the Finnegan houses (not Vic Hallams) on Errington seen beyond the works site in this picture are currently being demolished.

The site of the works unit, now cleared along with some of the housing on Errington close

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This field is the school playing field. It has never been built on by either the old or new school buildings.

When I used to take a short cut across it from Arbourthorne to Ashleigh school it was nearly always muddy, and when it did dry out the earth cracked.

The area is called "Myrtle Springs", hence the name of the school but a spring also implies a water source, and it is close to that water works.

I believe that this is the site of the source of the stream that runs through the Jervis Lum

After a particularly wet and rainy month here is that site again.

Notice how it holds water at the high point, from here it is all downhill through the Arbouthorne, the lum valley, Norfolk Park and all the way into town.

This water pool has built up at exactly the spot that I predicted was the most likely source of the Jervis Lum stream.

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After a particularly wet and rainy month here is that site again.

Notice how it holds water at the high point, from here it is all downhill through the Arbouthorne, the lum valley, Norfolk Park and all the way into town.

This water pool has built up at exactly the spot that I predicted was the most likely source of the Jervis Lum stream.

Looks like a reasonable case Dave.

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After a particularly wet and rainy month here is that site again.

Notice how it holds water at the high point, from here it is all downhill through the Arbouthorne, the lum valley, Norfolk Park and all the way into town.

This water pool has built up at exactly the spot that I predicted was the most likely source of the Jervis Lum stream.

Why not tip a bucket full of Fluorescein in it Dave,

I could then take a walk over to the Lum to see if the water in the stream has turned yellow.

lol

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Why not tip a bucket full of Fluorescein in it Dave,

I could then take a walk over to the Lum to see if the water in the stream has turned yellow.

lol

I had thought of that; then wondered about the H & S Squad.

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Why not tip a bucket full of Fluorescein in it Dave,

I could then take a walk over to the Lum to see if the water in the stream has turned yellow.

lol

Hey hang on, I'm supposed to be a chemist.

I'm sure I would be in a lot of professional trouble if I did something like that. :rolleyes:

I'm sure the "big boys" would favour me putting some radioactive tracer isotope in it instead and you following it downstream with a Geiger counter. <_<

Or alternatively counting mutated residents along its path. :o

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Or alternatively counting mutated residents along its path> :o

Knowing the path of the Lum that would not be easy lol

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Knowing the path of the Lum that would not be easy lol

I'm still trying to pinpoint the source of that little tributary stream that seems to run up towards the black bank and Eastern Walk.

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