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RichardB

Jervis Lum

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Yes I know....I'm Gramps BTW lol I was just having a little joke with Dunsbyowl.

Thank you for the keyboard instruction, I have been using a computer keyboard since 1990 although I suppose I must appear to be quite a dunce at times.

1984 for me and still an idiot. Wife looks like Arthur Askey when wearing black leggings but don't tell her. I'm more of a Fatty Arbuckle physique myself lol

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Teacher at work

Is that a teacher on one of their 'training days' when they spend two days discussing what they did on their 7 week summer holiday ;-) ?

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Is that a teacher on one of their 'training days' when they spend two days discussing what they did on their 7 week summer holiday ;-) ?

Of course, wish I had thought of that lol

Totally off topic now lol

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OK...back on topic - from the 1850s map it can be seen there were two streams which converged in Jervis Lum, the combined stream then continued north towards Norfolk Cottage (later known as Norfolk Lodge), where it seems to have gone underground. It's possible the stream was used to feed the small lake in the farm grounds. The ancient stream beds appear to have formed some of the field boundaries at the bottom of the map.

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Is that a teacher on one of their 'training days' when they spend two days discussing what they did on their 7 week summer holiday ;-) ?

I think the previous post you have replied to here was Stuart having a bit of a joke with me (a teacher) while replying to my post #75.

Stuart well knows my views on teacher training days.

I wouldn't mind having that 7 weeks holiday though Dunsbyowl ;-)

Its a week more than I've just had :(

I've only been back less than a week and you can forget the long holiday as I'm already nackered :blink:

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OK...back on topic - from the 1850s map it can be seen there were two streams which converged in Jervis Lum, the combined stream then continued north towards Norfolk Cottage (later known as Norfolk Lodge), where it seems to have gone underground. It's possible the stream was used to feed the small lake in the farm grounds. The ancient stream beds appear to have formed some of the field boundaries at the bottom of the map.

Interestingly this map shows neither Arbourthorne Pond or the 2 smaller ponds which were on the stream before it entered the Jervis Lumb area marked on the map.

Of the 2 forks of the stream the right hand, more easterly one is the one crossing Arbourthorne Fields from a source somewhere near Hurlfield Hill and I have traced its course earlier in this thread.

The other left hand, westerly stream seems to run towards the black bank and so would, when it reached the Arbouthorne area more than likely have connections with the Myrtle Spring stream. If so I have also done a prtial topic on this but it is hidden away in another thread which started off as something else and so isn't called "Myrtle Spring". I will try to relocate it.

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Interestingly this map shows neither Arbourthorne Pond or the 2 smaller ponds which were on the stream before it entered the Jervis Lumb area marked on the map.

Of the 2 forks of the stream the right hand, more easterly one is the one crossing Arbourthorne Fields from a source somewhere near Hurlfield Hill and I have traced its course earlier in this thread.

The other left hand, westerly stream seems to run towards the black bank and so would, when it reached the Arbouthorne area more than likely have connections with the Myrtle Spring stream. If so I have also done a prtial topic on this but it is hidden away in another thread which started off as something else and so isn't called "Myrtle Spring". I will try to relocate it.

Link to Myrtle Spring thread is here under work houses. My "tour" starts at post #29.

Myrtle Springs

I must admit I did not realise that in the lower reaches the Jervis and Myrtle streams met, I had assumed that the Myrtle Springs stream, following the contour of the land, would more than likely flow into the Gleadless Vallet and into Meersbrook.

While visiting Norfolk Park and the Jervis Lumb area it waqs never obvious that there was a junction of 2 streams at any point along its exposed visible route.

So the challenge is now on to find the point where the confluence of these 2 streams is.

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The map in this post by Bayleaf might help.

Yes that shows it quite clearly as I first thought.

The Myrtle Spring stream, along with 3 others which are smaller, does indeed flow down the steeper embankment into the Gleadless Valley where it joins the Meers Brook.

The Jervis Stream, the eastern branch of it is the main one which I have mapped the course of earlier in the current thread.

That mysterious western branch appears to be relatively short and does not back up the hill too far.

Its source and its confluence with the Jervis are still unknown, except that the map should give us some good clues as to finding them.

I suspect that this shorter stream was easily removed by draining or culveting and the land around it is likely to be (on the Norfolk Park estate) built on with no visible trace of a stream left, - but still worth investigating.

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This dip in East Bank Road marks the point where the stream would pass beneath it

With this row of Vic Hallam houses sat right on top of the site of the stream

on the other side of East Bank Road there are no buildings, just open field again. There has been no housing here since the last asbestos prefabricated housing was removed in 1966. However in recent years this strange industrial looking unit has appeared. Anyone got any ideas what it is?

I've just come back to these photographs, and yes, the dip in the road by the Finnegan (flat-rooved) houses that you suggest as the route for the stream, does run in direct line with the route of the stream in my (former) little garden, and where it passes through my neighbours' gardens, and directly in line with the pond (s).

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HI Plain talker l was directed in 1946 to work on the erection of prefabs in the Park district and those in Dore village, and the foundations were adequate for that type of building, its based on the calculation of the total wieght of the building to be built, as for damp ground an adequate damp course takes care of that same as any building,and should be a minimum of 16 centimetres above the surrounding ground.as for floor bounce thats coursed by the joists or packings drying out, to say they were supposed to have a life span of 20yrs they did well Skeets

I'm sure the foundations were more than adequate for the lightweight construction of the prefabs. I had relatives in the ones on Black Bank, and my aunt in the ones at Hollybank.

The ones behind my bestie's house at Stannington are still going strong, sixty years on. (not bad for an estimated lifespan of 20, really, is it?)

They are very popular. Many residents in them have been in them since at least the 1960's, some very elderly residents have been in them since the 1940's. they are so popular that some tenants chose to buy their prefabs there, rather than move to somewhere/ something else. (I STR my aunt moved off Hollybank onto Hyde Park Flats in about 1966, which corresponds to the dates suggested for the demolition of the majority of the remainder that were post- hurricane 1962.

The Finnegan houses that replaced the Prefabs were broadly similar in construction, (more or less the same, prefabricated construction) except that the Finnegans were 2-storey which is rare for a prefab (I don't recall 2-storey prefabs in Sheffield, though I have seen pictures of them elsewhere.)

I was given to understand that the Finnegans are constructed on a concrete "raft", which distributes the weight more evenly on the marshy ground.

My concern is that they won't want to put prefab-style housing back on that land when the Finnegans are demolished, soon, so what will they do when they come to build normal-weight properties on normal-weight foundations on such soggy land.

Won't there be a terrible problem with subsidence?

As I said previously on this thread, my Grandpa was adamant that the land is too wet to build on, normally. he was astounded that they managed to build the Finnegans, let alone the T-block flats.

When the Finnegan houses were built in 1966/7/8 ish, they were given a lifespan of about 10-15 years, so to say they are now over forty years old, again, they are doing very well.

They are also, IMO, very well laid out inside, and economical to heat in Winter, because of the insulation, though they are a devil in hot weather, because the sun beats down fiercely on the flat roof, and then over the course of the night, the heat comes down into the bedrooms from the roof, so it can be murder in the heat.

I really do think it's a pity that they can't "improve" the Finnegans like they did with the Vic Hallam houses on Norfolk Park.

A construction-based pal of mine told me that the Finnegans were actually a better construction than the Vic's because the Vic Hallams didn't have a Metal RSJ (Reusable Steel Joist) supporting the upper floors. They were an all-wood frame construction.

I think the pitched-roofed, "improved" VH's on Norfolk park look excellent.

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I've just come back to these photographs, and yes, the dip in the road by the Finnegan (flat-rooved) houses that you suggest as the route for the stream, does run in direct line with the route of the stream in my (former) little garden, and where it passes through my neighbours' gardens, and directly in line with the pond (s).

So what are the differences between Finnegans and Vic Hallams?

They both look the same to me, or at least they did when new before they were altered and "modernised"

If you were stood in the street looking at one of these 2 storey prefabs what key features would we be looking at to determine which of these 2 building companies built it?

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So what are the differences between Finnegans and Vic Hallams?

They both look the same to me, or at least they did when new before they were altered and "modernised"

If you were stood in the street looking at one of these 2 storey prefabs what key features would we be looking at to determine which of these 2 building companies built it?

I think the Weaklands estate at Hackenthorpe/Frechville was a Finnegans build, I may be totally wrong as like DaveH I am not an expert on prefabricated council housing of the 60's and 70's

Weaklands estate from Birley Moor Rd courtesy of Google SV

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I think the Weaklands estate at Hackenthorpe/Frechville was a Finnegans build, I may be totally wrong as like DaveH I am not an expert on prefabricated council housing of the 60's and 70's

Weaklands estate from Birley Moor Rd courtesy of Google SV

That was the point I was trying to make, regardless of the builder, of which there appears to be 2, all the houses look the same.

Are the ones on the Weaklands estate any different from the ones on the nearby Silkstone estate?

Or are either of them any different from the ones on the Arbourthorne or the Norfolk Park estate?

I am sure plaintalker will be able to enlighten us.

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That was the point I was trying to make, regardless of the builder, of which there appears to be 2, all the houses look the same.

Are the ones on the Weaklands estate any different from the ones on the nearby Silkstone estate?

Or are either of them any different from the ones on the Arbourthorne or the Norfolk Park estate?

I am sure plaintalker will be able to enlighten us.

To the untrained eye is it just the colour

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To the untrained eye is it just the colour

Externally they are the same (to my eyes, - and they are not too good these days)

but are they the same internally, same number of bedrooms, same layout, etc?

I have been in a few of these houses before but only on the Arbourthorne / Norfolk Park estate.

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Externally they are the same (to my eyes, - and they are not too good these days)

but are they the same internally, same number of bedrooms, same layout, etc?

I have been in a few of these houses before but only on the Arbourthorne / Norfolk Park estate.

These are some Vic Hallam's I believe on the now demolished Birley estate

Un refurbished

Courtesy of Goggle SV

The Finnegans had more of a Red Brick appearance.

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Yes that shows it quite clearly as I first thought.

The Myrtle Spring stream, along with 3 others which are smaller, does indeed flow down the steeper embankment into the Gleadless Valley where it joins the Meers Brook.

The Jervis Stream, the eastern branch of it is the main one which I have mapped the course of earlier in the current thread.

That mysterious western branch appears to be relatively short and does not back up the hill too far.

Its source and its confluence with the Jervis are still unknown, except that the map should give us some good clues as to finding them.

I suspect that this shorter stream was easily removed by draining or culveting and the land around it is likely to be (on the Norfolk Park estate) built on with no visible trace of a stream left, - but still worth investigating.

If I understand you correctly your 'Myrtle Springs' stream in fact rises in the small clump of woodland between Berners close and Paddock crescent and follows the eastern boundary of Buck Wood; it seems to be part of the ancient boundary between Handsworth and Sheffield. This clump of woodland is still visible and can be seen on Google maps and the 1950s map 70 here on the forum.

The Jervis Lum stream can also be seen on this map. On the 1850s and 1906 maps the stream appears to rise in what was possibly an orchard attached to Paddock Farm. Both maps show a pond which at that elevation must have been supplied by a spring to be shown as a permanent feature. It is difficult to now identify the exact location of Paddock Farm, but I would guesstimate it lay in the open area at the end of Errington road on map 70. The road layout has changed again since the 1950s.

Edit to ask if anyone knows the name of the farm at the bottom of Hurfield Hill described as a ruin on map 70 ??

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These are some Vic Hallam's I believe on the now demolished Birley estate

Un refurbished

Courtesy of Goggle SV

The Finnegans had more of a Red Brick appearance.

Comparing your two pictures Stuart there is a very noticable difference to do with the "red brick" of Finnegans and the "white wood on grey" of Vic Hallam.

Perhaps that is the difference, - not spotted that before and i have been around these houses since they were first built in the mid 60's

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If I understand you correctly your 'Myrtle Springs' stream in fact rises in the small clump of woodland between Berners close and Paddock crescent and follows the eastern boundary of Buck Wood; it seems to be part of the ancient boundary between Handsworth and Sheffield. This clump of woodland is still visible and can be seen on Google maps and the 1950s map 70 here on the forum.

The Jervis Lum stream can also be seen on this map. On the 1850s and 1906 maps the stream appears to rise in what was possibly an orchard attached to Paddock Farm. Both maps show a pond which at that elevation must have been supplied by a spring to be shown as a permanent feature. It is difficult to now identify the exact location of Paddock Farm, but I would guesstimate it lay in the open area at the end of Errington road on map 70. The road layout has changed again since the 1950s.

Edit to ask if anyone knows the name of the farm at the bottom of Hurfield Hill described as a ruin on map 70 ??

The Buck Wood / Paddock farm stream is very clear on the map as you say.

However the Myrtle Spring stream is further east, - delow the st in the Sheffield hiSTory watermark. The area here is actually marked as Myrtle Springs. It has 2 small ponds which still exist, now in the middle of a modern housing estate and are pictured in the "Myrtle Springs" bit of the linked thread on work houses.

The "Myrtle Springs" stream can be made out as a line which runs between but not through the 2 ponds, an area which was once a small wooded area on had a small orchard. This line is easily found as someone has continued it off the bottom of the map with a pencil and al;so added some "proposed" roads also just off the map area.

There are several of these streams that run down the steep bank into the Gleadless Valley and join Meers Brook which flows through the valley. I had thought that Myrtle Spring was the largest of these as it is well known and the others don't seem to be known about but clearly from the map it is the Buck Wood boundary stream which is the major one.

Perhaps I need another photographic expedition to try and find it, - and the other collection of small streams on the map.

I would have put Paddock farm further west than Errington, nearer Arbourthorne Road (and nearer the present day paddock crescent).

The farm marked ruins is on the other side of Gleadless Road and so is technically in Gleadless, - I wonder if Pauline Shearstone has any mention of it in her definitive works on this area? I will try to find out.

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These are some Vic Hallam's I believe on the now demolished Birley estate

Un refurbished

Courtesy of Goggle SV

The Finnegans had more of a Red Brick appearance.

The two styles of housing are broadly similar in construction, they are both built using a form of prefabricated construction.

One of the differences between the Finnegans and the Vic Hallams is that the Vic Hallams are three bedroomed, the Finnegans have two.

The Vic Hallams were clad with a grey panelling, externally, with horizontal white-painted wooden slats under certain windows. The Finnegans were clad in dark vertical wood slats on the lower floor, and tiled on the upper floor

Internally, the VH's layout as a large through-living-room, and a smaller kitchen. The Finnegans had a through kitchen-diner with a smaller living room.

As I said earlier I was told the Finnegans had an RSJ between the lower and upper storeys, which can be seen above the lower storey's windows. The VH's don't.

About 20 years ago there was a minor external refurb to the Finnegans. The lower-storey gable walls had originally been built with a sort of plasterboard panel, with a pebble dashed finish to the outside. The panels were replaced with a thin brick cladding to the lower storey, which was a bit more, well, "aesthetically pleasing"...

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The two styles of housing are broadly similar in construction, they are both built using a form of prefabricated construction.

One of the differences between the Finnegans and the Vic Hallams is that the Vic Hallams are three bedroomed, the Finnegans have two.

The Vic Hallams were clad with a grey panelling, externally, with horizontal white-painted wooden slats under certain windows. The Finnegans were clad in dark vertical wood slats on the lower floor, and tiled on the upper floor

Internally, the VH's layout as a large through-living-room, and a smaller kitchen. The Finnegans had a through kitchen-diner with a smaller living room.

As I said earlier I was told the Finnegans had an RSJ between the lower and upper storeys, which can be seen above the lower storey's windows. The VH's don't.

About 20 years ago there was a minor external refurb to the Finnegans. The lower-storey gable walls had originally been built with a sort of plasterboard panel, with a pebble dashed finish to the outside. The panels were replaced with a thin brick cladding to the lower storey, which was a bit more, well, "aesthetically pleasing"...

Thanks for that plain talker, I knew you would have the answer to that one.

I should be able to differentiate a Finnegan from a Vic Hallam at first glance now ;-)

It would appear from your description of the interiors that most of the houses I have been in on the Norfolk Park estate (Samuel Road, Guildford Walk, Brimmersfield Close, Eastern Walk) would all appear to be Vic Hallams, - 3 bedrooms and a through lounge. I did have a tendency to call all houses of the 2 storey prefabricated design "Vic Hallams" anyway.

However the ones on the Arbourthorne which replaced our original asbestos prefab and which I used to deliver newspapers to as a teenager (Northern Avenue, Algar Road, Algar Place, Algar Drive) all appear externally to be Finnegans, - although I always called them "Vic Hallams".

More to the point, the ones in my picture of where the dip is in East Bank Road where the Jervis stream passes beneath it are now quite clearly from their appearance Finnegans and not Vic Hallams as I would have previously referred to them as.

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Thanks for that plain talker, I knew you would have the answer to that one.

I should be able to differentiate a Finnegan from a Vic Hallam at first glance now ;-)

It would appear from your description of the interiors that most of the houses I have been in on the Norfolk Park estate (Samuel Road, Guildford Walk, Brimmersfield Close, Eastern Walk) would all appear to be Vic Hallams, - 3 bedrooms and a through lounge. I did have a tendency to call all houses of the 2 storey prefabricated design "Vic Hallams" anyway.

However the ones on the Arbourthorne which replaced our original asbestos prefab and which I used to deliver newspapers to as a teenager (Northern Avenue, Algar Road, Algar Place, Algar Drive) all appear externally to be Finnegans, - although I always called them "Vic Hallams".

More to the point, the ones in my picture of where the dip is in East Bank Road where the Jervis stream passes beneath it are now quite clearly from their appearance Finnegans and not Vic Hallams as I would have previously referred to them as>

You pretty much have it in one.

The ones on Algar, and running up the hill to East Bank Rd, over Errington and Berners are all Finnegans. The ones on the bottom of spring lane, and going down Norfolk Park are VH's.

On Birley moor road, as you face the tram track, with your back to the city, the ones on the left hand side are Finnegans, (Weaklands) the ones on the right which are being/ have been demolished, are VH's (Newstead)

As you go down Silkstone Rd, near the Jack-in-the-box there are a number of Finnegans, as you get towards scowerdons, there is a mix of them, and the VH's.

There are some Finnegans on Frith Close/ Hollinsend road, which were clad in a reddish/ terracotta tile rather than the slate-grey. They look quite nice.

There are some VH's as you go up the hill toward Gleadless Townend.

the badger estate at Woodhouse is mostly VH's, but there are Finnegans which have been re-clad and refurbished, which I think would have been a much better option for the ones at Arbourthorne.

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You pretty much have it in one.

The ones on Algar, and running up the hill to East Bank Rd, over Errington and Berners are all Finnegans. The ones on the bottom of spring lane, and going down Norfolk Park are VH's.

On Birley moor road, as you face the tram track, with your back to the city, the ones on the left hand side are Finnegans, (Weaklands) the ones on the right which are being/ have been demolished, are VH's (Newstead)

As you go down Silkstone Rd, near the Jack-in-the-box there are a number of Finnegans, as you get towards scowerdons, there is a mix of them, and the VH's.

There are some Finnegans on Frith Close/ Hollinsend road, which were clad in a reddish/ terracotta tile rather than the slate-grey. They look quite nice.

There are some VH's as you go up the hill toward Gleadless Townend.

the badger estate at Woodhouse is mostly VH's, but there are Finnegans which have been re-clad and refurbished, which I think would have been a much better option for the ones at Arbourthorne.

Thanks plaintalker.

You learn something every day, - I am now fully qualified after your short course, to be able to identify a Finnegan or Vic Hallam prefab at 100 paces.

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