Guest Ali100 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 The following information is on various website about Endcliffe Park. This is something ive never heard of and being a frequent visitor to the park I am interested to find out more , if this closed park area exists??? Does anyone have any information on this. I am aware that a band stand used to exist in Endcliffe Park but this suggests another one at a different location. Any info would be greatly received. Thanks Behind the park is a smaller Victorian park which has been closed for many years and despite access being restricted by a wooden fence, depending on the season, a band stand can be seen by visitors to Encliffe Park. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endcliffe_Park Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Barbara M Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I thought it might be Bingham Park but that's across Rustlings Road, the only open space in the area is across the Porter weirs , it's called Endcliffe Wood on my old A to Z You probably need a very old map, good luck in your search !! Barbara M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 The following information is on various website about Endcliffe Park. This is something ive never heard of and being a frequent visitor to the park I am interested to find out more , if this closed park area exists??? Does anyone have any information on this. I am aware that a band stand used to exist in Endcliffe Park but this suggests another one at a different location. Any info would be greatly received. Thanks Behind the park is a smaller Victorian park which has been closed for many years and despite access being restricted by a wooden fence, depending on the season, a band stand can be seen by visitors to Encliffe Park. http://en.wikipedia..../Endcliffe_Park Welcome to the forum Ali! I haven't come across this before, and given the source I'm a bit sceptical. You mention 'various websites', can you say where else you've seen it please? The entrance to the park wasn't a toll-bar, though it was nearby. The toll-gate posts however were reused for the park entrance. One or two large estates existed in the vicinity, the estate/grounds of Endcliffe hall once extended down to Riverdale Rd, and contained a number of buildings including two glass summer houses. The Hall was put up for sale in 1892, and offered to the Town Council as, among other things, a public park, but the Council turned it down because of shortage of funds. Perhaps these grounds are the 'Victorian Park" referred to, and a summer house mistaken for a bandstand? Endcliffe Park (originally called Endcliffe Woods up to 1929) was created between 1885 and 1887, and I suppose it might have been possible to see one from the other, before the houses on Riverdale were built? Very little of the grounds now exists, the hall is a TA headquarters, and most of the surrounding park has been built on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ali100 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Welcome to the forum Ali! I haven't come across this before, and given the source I'm a bit sceptical. You mention 'various websites', can you say where else you've seen it please? The entrance to the park wasn't a toll-bar, though it was nearby. The toll-gate posts however were reused for the park entrance. One or two large estates existed in the vicinity, the estate/grounds of Endcliffe hall once extended down to Riverdale Rd, and contained a number of buildings including two glass summer houses. The Hall was put up for sale in 1892, and offered to the Town Council as, among other things, a public park, but the Council turned it down because of shortage of funds. Perhaps these grounds are the 'Victorian Park" referred to, and a summer house mistaken for a bandstand? Endcliffe Park (originally called Endcliffe Woods up to 1929) was created between 1885 and 1887, and I suppose it might have been possible to see one from the other, before the houses on Riverdale were built? Very little of the grounds now exists, the hall is a TA headquarters, and most of the surrounding park has been built on. Hi, Thanks for the replies and the welcome, not really sure what im doing so excuse any mistakes etc I may make in posts!!! The other websites were ones that came up when I put the words 'small victorian park behind Endcliffe Park' in to google. The wording on these sites was exatly the same as on Wikepedia so maybe the text has just been lifted from there, not sure what they all were but one was a facebook page for the park! I was aware of the summer houses and the grand gardens as mentioned in a book I was told to read but it does not mention a bandstand. Maybe as you said it was mistaken for one of these bulidings. Maybe what is now the TA headquarters is the location! I would love to know for sure though. Where would I find old maps of the area??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hi, Thanks for the replies and the welcome, not really sure what im doing so excuse any mistakes etc I may make in posts!!! The other websites were ones that came up when I put the words 'small victorian park behind Endcliffe Park' in to google. The wording on these sites was exatly the same as on Wikepedia so maybe the text has just been lifted from there, not sure what they all were but one was a facebook page for the park! I was aware of the summer houses and the grand gardens as mentioned in a book I was told to read but it does not mention a bandstand. Maybe as you said it was mistaken for one of these bulidings. Maybe what is now the TA headquarters is the location! I would love to know for sure though. Where would I find old maps of the area??? You're doing fine Ali! You could start with the Maps forum on here. This is from a Godfrey map of 1903, showing Endcliffe and the private grounds behind. No bandstand though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 You're doing fine Ali! You could start with the Maps forum on here. This is from a Godfrey map of 1903, showing Endcliffe and the private grounds behind. No bandstand though! PS Just tried google as you suggested... all entries link back to the Wiki article as you suspected. I wonder who wrote it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madannie77 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 PS Just tried google as you suggested... all entries link back to the Wiki article as you suspected. I wonder who wrote it? We may never know. Just looked at the edit history of the article, and most of the people who have contributed to the article have usernames or just use the IP address of their computer. The paragraph about the smaller park first appeared in May 2010 and was removed a couple of times by people pointing out it that it is private land and not part of the park. It's last disappearance was at about 8pm today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 The paragraph about the smaller park first appeared in May 2010 and was removed a couple of times by people pointing out it that it is private land and not part of the park. It's last disappearance was at about 8pm today. I'll put my hand up to that one Madannie, I'm positive it's wrong, and I'll wait and see whether it's restored. I have grave reservations about Wiki when it comes to local stuff. A while ago there was an entry about Fulwood, which was " a spa where people would go to take the waters and promenade in the evening with their ladies." Cobblers. Fulwood wasn't even a nucleated village. Someone had heard of 'Fulwood Spa' which in fact was a in fact a spring in a hillside over a mile from Fulwood, used by locals for its supposed health giving properties, and whose location by Victorian times was forgotten, but someone thought 'Spa? Oh yes, Buxton, Bath and all that' and made the rest up. I'll get me coat.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madannie77 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I'll put my hand up to that one Madannie, I'm positive it's wrong, and I'll wait and see whether it's restored. I have grave reservations about Wiki when it comes to local stuff. A while ago there was an entry about Fulwood, which was " a spa where people would go to take the waters and promenade in the evening with their ladies." Cobblers. Fulwood wasn't even a nucleated village. Someone had heard of 'Fulwood Spa' which in fact was a in fact a spring in a hillside over a mile from Fulwood, used by locals for its supposed health giving properties, and whose location by Victorian times was forgotten, but someone thought 'Spa? Oh yes, Buxton, Bath and all that' and made the rest up. I'll get me coat.... I had a feeling it was you: the username was a bit of a clue . I usually quote information from Wikipedia with a caveat, as I don't have a great deal of confidence in it. I imagine a lot of what is on Wikipedia is factually accurate, but there is enough that I know to be wrong that it undermines my confidence in what I read (except the bits I edited last year, which I know to be true). EDIT I note that the removed section has already reappeared :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckweed Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I suppose its up to people who have done the research to change any Wikipedia items we know to be wrong. Trouble is even after its been corrected there will still be the errors elsewhere on local websites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I suppose its up to people who have done the research to change any Wikipedia items we know to be wrong. Trouble is even after its been corrected there will still be the errors elsewhere on local websites. Unfortunately in this case the original poster insists on changing things back when they've been corrected. This time with the comment 'Why delete the details?' Because they're wrong, and mislead people, thus devaluing the whole of Wikipaedia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I had a feeling it was you: the username was a bit of a clue . I usually quote information from Wikipedia with a caveat, as I don't have a great deal of confidence in it. I imagine a lot of what is on Wikipedia is factually accurate, but there is enough that I know to be wrong that it undermines my confidence in what I read (except the bits I edited last year, which I know to be true). EDIT I note that the removed section has already reappeared Oh what a giveaway! But what can you do with someone like that? It just gives the whole thing a bad name, and causes people like Ali to waste their time trying to find something that isn't there. :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ali100 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Oh what a giveaway! But what can you do with someone like that? It just gives the whole thing a bad name, and causes people like Ali to waste their time trying to find something that isn't there. HI, Thanks for all the info, the maps look very interesting indeed. My excitment is slowly fading now that this secret park with it bandstand, hidden away does not actually exist!! Its true that info on Wikepedia should be validated before going on there, although I have had fun finding out more info about this and have discovered some nice snippets of information about the park that I never knew, so in a way its good. I will research some more as I now have the bug!! I love the park and its history! I am also glad I have discovered this forum!!! again finding out stuff that I didnt know!! like the Windmill up at Weston Park!!! I work up there as part of my job and its amazing to think of the stuff that was there before how we see it today!! Thanks for all the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ali100 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 You're doing fine Ali! You could start with the Maps forum on here. This is from a Godfrey map of 1903, showing Endcliffe and the private grounds behind. No bandstand though! Just looking at this map I have seen a small triangle in the grounds of the Glen just above the park, there is a pond on site too!! Does anyone know what the triangle stands for?? Also I was looking at older maps and noted an area marked Victoria Park behind the Botanical Gardens, when Endcliffe Park was still woods on the map, this however disapears on the later maps ive seen that have Endcliffe Park as a park marked on them. Do you think this could be linked to the Victorian Park bit of the info that has maybe got distorted along the way???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madannie77 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Just looking at this map I have seen a small triangle in the grounds of the Glen just above the park, there is a pond on site too!! Does anyone know what the triangle stands for?? Also I was looking at older maps and noted an area marked Victoria Park behind the Botanical Gardens, when Endcliffe Park was still woods on the map, this however disapears on the later maps ive seen that have Endcliffe Park as a park marked on them. Do you think this could be linked to the Victorian Park bit of the info that has maybe got distorted along the way???? If the triangular symbol is used on this map like it is on more modern OS maps it denotes a triangulation station. Having not been to Endcliffe Park for well over 30 years I have no idea if there is one there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckweed Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Who knows how these urban myths start? I asked my husband about this rumour as he grew up in Rustlings Road and his family goes back 4 generations one side and 3 the other and he has never heard of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike142sl Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 The bandstand in Endcliffe Park appears on the 1905 map and is located between where the cafe is now and the playground, on the grass side of the path beside the river. It is still shown on the 1935 map. The Trig Point fascinates me and I am certainly going for a hunt as it may still be there. I've found a few such things that don't show on current OS maps so to find one so close to home will be great. I'm also intrigued by the two apparently walled areas SW of The Glen. Not sure if these will be part of what has been built on now but worth a scramble I think. Just an afterthought, does anyone know what the area now used by the Hallamshire Tennis & Squash Club was. There is a pavillion shown on the 1894 map onwards - could this be the Victorian Garden, as it would have had a view of the bandstand but that appears between 1903 and 1905. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveHB Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 The bandstand in Endcliffe Park appears on the 1905 map and is located between where the cafe is now and the playground, on the grass side of the path beside the river. It is still shown on the 1935 map. The Trig Point fascinates me and I am certainly going for a hunt as it may still be there. I've found a few such things that don't show on current OS maps so to find one so close to home will be great. I'm also intrigued by the two apparently walled areas SW of The Glen. Not sure if these will be part of what has been built on now but worth a scramble I think. Just an afterthought, does anyone know what the area now used by the Hallamshire Tennis & Squash Club was. There is a pavillion shown on the 1894 map onwards - could this be the Victorian Garden, as it would have had a view of the bandstand but that appears between 1903 and 1905. Here you go Mike this should help, good luck Flash Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 The bandstand in Endcliffe Park appears on the 1905 map and is located between where the cafe is now and the playground, on the grass side of the path beside the river. It is still shown on the 1935 map. The Trig Point fascinates me and I am certainly going for a hunt as it may still be there. I've found a few such things that don't show on current OS maps so to find one so close to home will be great. I'm also intrigued by the two apparently walled areas SW of The Glen. Not sure if these will be part of what has been built on now but worth a scramble I think. Just an afterthought, does anyone know what the area now used by the Hallamshire Tennis & Squash Club was. There is a pavillion shown on the 1894 map onwards - could this be the Victorian Garden, as it would have had a view of the bandstand but that appears between 1903 and 1905. The original post suggests that the bandstand in question stands in the 'Victorian park' and is visible from Endcliffe park rather than the other way round. This is a drawing by Henry Tatton done in 1880. The buildings are Rustlings Farm, the road in the foreground is Ecclesall Rd, and the lamppost in the foreground is where the junction with Carrington Rd is now. Rustlings Rd was built in the 1880's so this is just before. The farm must have stood round about the present junction, and much of Endcliffe Park was part of the farm. In the big open area and further along Rustlings Rd there's the remains of ridge and furrow, which is believed to date from the late 18th/ early 19th centuries. I think that would put the site of the tennis club roughly where the farmyard would have been. I'm afraid I'm sceptical about the whole thing. The writer of the Wiki article that started this discussion doesn't quote a source. The article also says the park gate was originally the tollgate, which it wasn't; that the park gateposts are the original tollgate posts, which they're not; and the park was opened to celebrate Victoria's jubilee, which I don't think is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike142sl Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 The original post suggests that the bandstand in question stands in the 'Victorian park' and is visible from Endcliffe park rather than the other way round. That's how I read it initially, but as well as just being wrong it is badly written and could also read that the bandstand can be viewed from the Victorian Garden, but only at certain times of the year - by which I take it to mean during the winter when there are no leaves on the trees. This is why I was interested in the areas to the SW of The Glen, but looking at aerial photos it looks like these particular areas are now the site of some flats. The Trig point looks like it may be under a car park now as well but will be worth a look over the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Pond Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Unfortunately in this case the original poster insists on changing things back when they've been corrected. This time with the comment 'Why delete the details?' Because they're wrong, and mislead people, thus devaluing the whole of Wikipaedia! The revert appears to have been done by an admin, not the original poster. Some of the errors could be poor choice of words and paragraphing, so perhaps the best thing to do is to put some information on the discussion page proposing the changes and giving the rationale. I've started that process and will see if I can ping the admin. The claim about "opening in 1887 to commemorate" probably derives from the memorial stone (http://public-art.shu.ac.uk/sheffield/unk351) although the council website http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/out--about/parks-woodlands--countryside/parks/a-z-city-district--local--parks/endcliffe-park/ says it was acquired in stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ali100 Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 The bandstand in Endcliffe Park appears on the 1905 map and is located between where the cafe is now and the playground, on the grass side of the path beside the river. It is still shown on the 1935 map. The Trig Point fascinates me and I am certainly going for a hunt as it may still be there. I've found a few such things that don't show on current OS maps so to find one so close to home will be great. I'm also intrigued by the two apparently walled areas SW of The Glen. Not sure if these will be part of what has been built on now but worth a scramble I think. Just an afterthought, does anyone know what the area now used by the Hallamshire Tennis & Squash Club was. There is a pavillion shown on the 1894 map onwards - could this be the Victorian Garden, as it would have had a view of the bandstand but that appears between 1903 and 1905. Im going to sound very stupid now, so I apologise, but im very new to all this!! What is a Trig point?????? im presuming it is the triangle marked on the map!! But what does it mean??? I hope someone finds some info on this so called secret park, it would be great if it was there, at some point in time!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayleaf Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Im going to sound very stupid now, so I apologise, but im very new to all this!! What is a Trig point?????? im presuming it is the triangle marked on the map!! But what does it mean??? I hope someone finds some info on this so called secret park, it would be great if it was there, at some point in time!! Not stupid at all Ali. I hesitate to quote Wiki after all this but this is a decent explanation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike142sl Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Im going to sound very stupid now, so I apologise, but im very new to all this!! What is a Trig point?????? im presuming it is the triangle marked on the map!! But what does it mean??? I hope someone finds some info on this so called secret park, it would be great if it was there, at some point in time!! Trig Point is an abbreviation of Triangulation Point. More often to be found at the peak of most hills in this country but there are many more in the middle of fields all over the country. The link provided by Bayleaf explains fully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ali100 Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Not stupid at all Ali. I hesitate to quote Wiki after all this but this is a decent explanation! Thank you very much to both of you for the explanation!! very interesting indeed!! I have spoken to the Park Manager about the 'Smaller Victorain Park' and he also has no knowledge of it existing!! :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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